Playing Across the Rows

[Dirge]

 

 

Dirge,

I can hardly wait. You must take up anglo and report back on all your observations!

(Actually, I can be a sport; I'll get serious about MacCann if you take up the anglo. Deal?

 

Greg

 

Er no, I might stick with what I know thanks!

[Dan Worrall]

 

I commented here a couple of years ago re doing a week classes down in Miltown with I think, Katie O'Sullivan as tutor - she'd be more from Limerick direction. Anyway, Katie was keen on playing in octaves or double noting as she called it. We wouldn't play the whole tune in octaves but she'd double note several bars at a time. So maybe not as dead as you might think as Katie wouldn't be an old player! I've also heard Micheal O'Raghaillaigh playing, I think it was, The Connaughtman's Rambles in octaves. Have a recording somewhere - must see if I can dig it out.

 

Right, for those interested .. this is about 10 minutes or so by Micheal O'Raghallaigh talking to a general group of students in Achill a couple of years ago - some of the kids are fiddle, some are box players and so on. To demonstrate, he uses the well known (in Ireland) jig, The Connaughtmans Rambles - plays melody first, throws in a few triplets, plays in octaves and then throws the proverbial kitchen sink at it! An interesting piece follows on Chris Droney's style with the Bell Harbour reel, I think, played in different styles. The file is about 8MB - I don't use Boxnet much but I think this should work. Let me know if it doesn't. http://www.box.net/shared/9hq6enntlh

Thanks for sharing the tape. As you mentioned, Katie Hughes "wouldn't play the whole tune in octaves but she'd double note several bars at a time", in effect using octaves as an occasional embellishment. That is very common among players today...it is a very effective thing that the concertina can do that most other instruments cannot. Micheal does the same. He played the tune purely in octaves as a demonstration, but in his standard practice (and in his last go at the tune on that tape) he uses octaves as an embellishment.

 

The difference is that the old German concertina players--back in the house dance era in Ireland (more or less pre-WWI), and in Australia, or Scan Tester and other old players in England, or the old Boer players--played tunes entirely in octaves, or as close as they could get to it, as a standard practice. It is every bit a total "system" of fingering as is Noel Hill's, or for that matter Chris Droney's (along the G row). I do not know of any notable recording artist or teacher doing that to that extent today, other than perhaps Will Duke in England...although he does other things too. With amplification you don't need the extra volume, and it does restrict you to C and G. And with octave playing you often have to "chop" your fingering, which seems to be a cardinal offense these days! If most players went back to playing mostly for social dances in houses rather than concerts, solo with no amplification, from dusk to dawn, and the tempo of the dances were slowed back down a bit, octave playing might make a resurgence--but I wouldn't bet on it. Anglo concertinas are like racehorses compared to the old German Concertinas (like little donkeys?), and they demand to be taken through their paces.

 

I should mention the obvious...that Chris Droney could easily play in the octave manner and often did, sometimes for a whole tune. But mostly he was single noting along the G row, using octaves as embellishment.

 

Cheers,

Dan

[tombilly]

And with octave playing you often have to "chop" your fingering, which seems to be a cardinal offense these days! If most players went back to playing mostly for social dances in houses rather than concerts, solo with no amplification, from dusk to dawn, and the tempo of the dances were slowed back down a bit, octave playing might make a resurgence--but I wouldn't bet on it.

Cheers, Dan

 

Yeah - I've noticed that when I've tried it, hard to avoid having to hop the finger across. I find I can generally double note a phrase in the lower octave or the upper octave but switching across like Micheal, just does my head in - I just lose the tune! Get lost in the octaves, so to speak. It's a nice effect though - I'll have to look out for some old recordings of the style to listen to.

[Dan Worrall]

And with octave playing you often have to "chop" your fingering, which seems to be a cardinal offense these days! If most players went back to playing mostly for social dances in houses rather than concerts, solo with no amplification, from dusk to dawn, and the tempo of the dances were slowed back down a bit, octave playing might make a resurgence--but I wouldn't bet on it.

Cheers, Dan

 

Yeah - I've noticed that when I've tried it, hard to avoid having to hop the finger across. I find I can generally double note a phrase in the lower octave or the upper octave but switching across like Micheal, just does my head in - I just lose the tune! Get lost in the octaves, so to speak. It's a nice effect though - I'll have to look out for some old recordings of the style to listen to.

That difficulty is why most modern players only ornament with it...if they have to change rows to follow it, they drop it. One gets good at that cross-rowing and occasional chopping, though--the old-timers certainly did--and it becomes second nature. I find myself playing more and more in full octaves, cross-row, in the past few years (especially for contradances), and can zip around pretty quickly for just about everything but reels at modern pace. Then I retreat to more standard single-note playing.

 

Although adding the lower octave increases the volume, it also tends to make the instrument sound much less screechy, especially in the high bits. Some if not many of the old German CG "organ" concertinas in Ireland and elsewhere were baritones, an octave down, which when played in full octaves sound like a melodeon (Danie Laubuschagne in South Africa makes one like that today; I have one and really like it).

 

One other thing; if you have a GD, you can play with others in key, in full octaves. I cannot easily play in full octaves in D on a CG--it is awkward.

[michael sam wild]

Thanks for those links to the 2006 posts.

Dan I was going to ask about octave twin reed instruments but you have told us. I used to play an Echo harmonica with octave reeds and it sounded nice that way as long as you could blow hard enough for a dance.

 

I've asked elsewhere where I could get one of the older twin reed German or Italian concertinas but no response as yet.

 

Tombilly thanks for that file on M O'R it shows his complete understanding of the potential of the instrument.

 

His Bell Harbour Reel sounded like a duet ( i.e. two players, not the type of concertina ) and iI wonder what a Duet concertina player would be able to do with the tune.

 

 

Twizzle I thnk , for the G/D you play, the Alan Day and Peter Trimming YouTube tutorials and John Kirkpatrick tutorials would be best. I play C/G mainly and have learned a lot from Brian Peters, Mick Bramich, John Townley, Frank Edgely, Bertram Levy and Mick Bramich.

 

Eagerly awaiting Noel Hill and the new B Levy tutoriials.

 

 

And Dan's CD!

Edited May 5, 2010 by michael sam wild

[tombilly]

Tombilly thanks for that file on M O'R it shows his complete understanding of the potential of the instrument. His Bell Harbour Reel sounded like a duet ( i.e. two players, not the type of concertina ) and I wonder what a Duet concertina player would be able to do with the tune.

 

You're right there - Micheal has some mastery of the C/G anglo. I can assure you in relation to the above clip, that he was playing entirely on his own, though you mightn't think it!

[david fabre]

The M O'R recording is amazing, thanks for posting it !

However he is playing the tune in D, so probably not using the "old style" which is more suited to C.

Unless he is playing a D/A ; maybe you remember.

As Dan pointed playin in octave in D on a C/G is much more awkward.

 

 

 

I've asked elsewhere where I could get one of the older twin reed German or Italian concertinas but no response as yet.

 

 

On his website, A.C.Norman is proposing a 20 button, double-reeded, 7inch instrument.

I don't know if is octave-tuned or tremolo-tuned ("organ" or "celestial", to follow the old nomenclature).

If I had money to spend on another couple of concertinas, one of them would certainly be one of these

in D/A tuning, to experiment with playing the "old" style in the "modern" key.

[tombilly]

The M O'R recording is amazing, thanks for posting it !

However he is playing the tune in D, so probably not using the "old style" which is more suited to C.

Unless he is playing a D/A ; maybe you remember.

As Dan pointed playin in octave in D on a C/G is much more awkward.

 

It's a couple of years ago but I'm fairly certain that it was C/G he was playing on. Think he says it elsewhere on part of recording I didn't include. I've tried playing Connaughtmans Rambles in octaves and it's very tricky as you say. Maybe it's a party or demonstration piece that M O'R uses but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he can apply it at will to any tune.

[Dan Worrall]

 

 

It's a couple of years ago but I'm fairly certain that it was C/G he was playing on. Think he says it elsewhere on part of recording I didn't include. I've tried playing Connaughtmans Rambles in octaves and it's very tricky as you say. Maybe it's a party or demonstration piece that M O'R uses but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he can apply it at will to any tune.

 

Tom,

 

His concertina is a CG, and his Connaughtman's Rambles is in G. After hearing him, I could play it at a reasonable pace pretty much straightaway in octaves, but then I am well used to playing in that manner. It's like anything else, if you get proficient at the cross row octave scale in G or C it gets very intuitive, and you can play just about any diatonic tune that comes into your head.

 

I would play it a bit different that him (not that he isn't a superb player!). He plays the first part in a high octave, starting the tune on the G row. This causes him trouble, and he has to drop an octave in the middle of the A part to keep it going. I think it is much easier and more intuitive to start the piece an octave lower...playing it still in G but starting on the C row. Try it in a low voice on the C row for the first 5 triplets. The sixth triplet moves down to the G row. this allows one to keep from having to jump octaves...it flows as written. In general, the lower parts of the tune are played on the C row, and the higher parts on the G row. An along-the-row single note player, on the other hand, would play it pretty much all on the G row.

 

Unless one is in love with tons of ornamentation, for my money that tune sounds much better in octaves that it does when played singly along the row...much less shrill. A lot of tunes are like that. It is amazing to me that so few people play in full octaves, when so many people did in the old days....on three continents!

 

The key of G is very straightforward in octaves, and one can play two complete octaves of the G scale in double notes (octave notes). I've written out that double scale on page 233 of volume 2. The first two notes (do and re of the first, or lower, octave G scale) and the last two notes of the second (higher) octave G scale involve a little chopping, but the reminder of it is pretty easy. The first A (re) of the first octave scale can be played more easily on the top row on a three row instrument; the version shown is for a two row. Once you get proficient at that, the rest of playing in G comes easily.

 

Hope this is of some use.

 

Cheers,

Dan

[Michael Reid]

The M O'R recording is amazing, thanks for posting it !

However he is playing the tune in D, so probably not using the "old style" which is more suited to C.

Unless he is playing a D/A ; maybe you remember.

As Dan pointed playin in octave in D on a C/G is much more awkward.

As it happens, The Connaughtman's Rambles was the tune I chose to play for MO'R in a workshop a few years ago. He then played it back for me on his C/G demonstrating how he would ornament it, and he used a number of octave notes for emphasis (although he didn't play long passages in octaves, as he often does).

 

I enjoy playing in octaves on my C/G and can do it reasonably well with a little practice. The B part of Connaughtman's Rambles is well suited to the octave treatment. Try this much:

 

fbb faa | fef edg | fbb faa | fed e2g |
fbb faa | fef edf | gfe f2e |d ...

where all the notes shown are played on the right hand, and you're using the left hand to play the octave below.

 

To finish off the phrase, i.e., with the full last measure being

 

dBA B2g

I play B and the octave below it on the left hand, but I find it a bit tricky. The same is true for the A (where you don't have the choice of using the right hand).

[david fabre]

Dan,

 

I listened again to the recording : it is in D, not in G (unless my piano is completely wrong !).

But it is certainly simpler to play it in octaves in G ; I'll try it in this way.

David

[Dan Worrall]

Dan,

 

I listened again to the recording : it is in D, not in G (unless my piano is completely wrong !).

But it is certainly simpler to play it in octaves in G ; I'll try it in this way.

David

Good save; it is indeed in D! My mistake. I was playing in D right along with the recording, blissfully unaware of the key...mainly because the tune has no C# in it. Then, after I shut the recording off, my fingers immediately went into G, which is much better for octaving in, as David points out. (Or, you can play it on a GD in D, easily, too.) What I was describing was playing the tune in G!

 

Playing it in D is best for playing along with others of course. But D is just not handy for octaving. Even without a C# (which would of course need the top row, which many early players did not have), the tune does not lie particularly well on the fingers. It is easy enough to play, but it requires some annoying jumping of octaves in the middle of the tune if one wishes to play it all in double notes. It also thus makes the A part higher than the B part, which is counter to how the tune is written.

 

This was part of the problem facing the early players of course when the ceili bands started up...the old way of fingering just didn't work well in D, and no one much had GD boxes, which would have alleviated the problem a bit (they still would have had fits with A!).

[Mikefule]

Anyone who could learn to play well just by reading an article would be more than clever enough to learn without reading the article. I don't think that person exists. If they do, I don't think I'd like to listen to their music.

 

Anyone who thinks an article is a substitute for direct communication with a skilled player and teacher, listening to other players, asking questions, practising, and putting a lot of effort in is plain wrong. Articles are useful in a wider context.

 

If a professional produces literature, then he is entitled to assert his copyright. In the case of a music teacher with a distinctive style, he may have an additional reason to do so because someone who tries and fails using the literature alone may feel that the system is discredited, and never go for lessons.

 

I just want to play as much as I can as well as I can before my fingers start to seize up or a I get run over by a bus. We do this for fun, don't we?