Bb/F layout

[Erland]

I am a Swedish Anglo Concertina Player, and i usually play  an 3 row G/C built by Jose Claro, (very good). I play Irish,  but mostly Swedish traditional music on my instrument.  Although i like my Claro very much, i am now intrested to buy a  3 row Bb/F from Marcus, because i like the more "mellow" sound of the Bb/F, which I am sure will suit many Swedish traditional tunes.

 

I understand that the layout on a Bb/F are one step lower than on a G/C anglo. And that you can play the Bb/F with the same fingering as you would do on a G/C. 

 

The thing that confuse me a bit, and to which i would like an answer ( we are not that many Concertina players in Sweden, especially players with experience of Bb/F so it is not easy to ask other players around here) is the layout on A1 and A2 on the RHS. On my G/C I have C#/C# on A1 RHS, and C#/Eb on A2 RHS.

 

When you buy a G/C, it seems that an important question are which layout system, Jeffries or Wheatstone, you choose. What I understand with my little experience, is that G/C players who often play tunes in keys who requires C#, like D-Major (Like in ITM) and A-Major wants several options of the C#, and because of that they go for a layout who have many C# ,options.

 

On a Bb/F the question (which note you have on A1 & A2 RHS) do not seems that important, and i do not (yet) understand why.. I mean, if you play a tune in for example  D major, (with the same fingering, as one should do on the G/C) on a Bb/F, the tune will come out in C major, right?  

And probably  (because of the fingering) there will be some notes up in A1 or A2 RHS position, the C# who now on a Bb/F would be an B instead. 

 

Can someone experienced player explain to me how it works? 

 

Can I use the same fingering on the Bb/F as I do on the GC, even in the accidental Row, or must i relearn, a new fingering pattern?

 

Do you think it is best to stick with my current system, but one step lower, or is it better to use for example a Wheatstone layout on the Bb/F?

 

Best Regards

 

/Erland

 

 

 

,

[Michael Eskin]

Yes, if you use the same fingerings on a Bb/F on an instrument with the same relative pitch layout as a 3-row C/G as far as the third row, you're just effectively playing the tune down one tone.  So if you are playing a tune that would be in the key of G on a C/G what you would hear is the same tune in the key of F.

I have a Lachenal Bb/F that use for playing with flat sets of Uilleann pipes tuned in C (standard pitch would be D) and I just play exactly as I would on my C/G.

Similarly, I have an A/E for playing with flat sets of Uilleann pipes tuned in B.

Edited July 30, 2020 by eskin

[The Crimson Avenger]

13 hours ago, Erland said:

... i usually play  an 3 row G/C built by Jose Claro, (very good) etc...

...On my G/C I have C#/C# on A1 RHS, and C#/Eb on A2 RHS...(*)

I'm guessing that you mean what I would call a C/G?

 

You seem unsure about the correspondence between layouts across the C/G and Bb/F configurations? I'm attaching layout

diagrams for my 30-button Wolverstone C/G and 30-button Lachenal Bb/F semi-miniature instruments. Both are (I think)

more or less standard layouts. Sorry about the different format - I haven't got around to creating a Professor McCann diagram

for the Wolverstone yet...

 

You will see that the aR1 button is C#/Eb on the C/G instrument, and is a (corresponding) B/C# on the Bb/F instrument. I'm

not aware that a C#/C# button is common? The C/G Marcus Traveller has a single accidental (in the aR1 position), and this

is also C#/Eb. (*) It looks as if your instrument has a 'non-standard' layout on the Right hand side accidentals row?

 

Do Marcus do a Bb/F then? I didn't know that.

 

I hope those layout diagrams help.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by The Crimson Avenger

[Erland]

Hi

 

And thank you for the answers, and the layout diagrams.

 

Correct, I play of course a C/G ?

 

My position on A1 & A2 RHS ( C#/C# & C#/Eb) is probably not the "most correct" layout if you read the books, but I am quite sure that there are several Irish players, who use that "system". And it was the system Jose Claro,  the maker, who lives in Tralee Co. Kerry,  suggested, when I ordered my Concertina some years ago. 

 

The reason for him to use that system is probably, that many players, wants several options for the C#, so they can keep up the speed (without  changing the bellows direction, or have to change finger), in for example D Major tunes,  which is a quite common Key for speedy, Irish reels for example.

 

If i read, and interpret the diagram right,  it is a matter of which note you want to prioritize, and how many options you will give some notes. The Jeffries system priority, seems to be many options for C# (B on an Bb/F) in both direction,  and the Wheatstone spread out a little more, and dont give the same options on the C# (B).

 

And that is of course a little problem, when you are use to have these options, and espescialy when the fingers are used to travel a special way. 

 

I Play quite many tunes in D Major, and A-Major, and there are lots of D Minor tunes in Swedish trad, many with C# in it. One  example is "Trollpolska", who have been a Tune of the Month here, is an example of a very common key in Sweden, especially if you play tunes from Dalarna. Trollpolska have several C# , even though it is a D minor Tune. And there are hundreds, like that tune.

 

So i am little concerned about the option to just have one option of B, when playing on a Bb/F.

[The Crimson Avenger]

2 hours ago, Erland said:

...And thank you for the answers, and the layout diagrams...

 

Glad they were at least a little helpful!

 

I learned something too! When I looked at my 'personal tune book' I found ~10 tunes which either had the title 'Trollpolska', (or some variant),

or which were flagged as coming from Dalarna. All were in Dm, except one. Also, I wasn't aware that some Irish players have that non-standard

layout on the first 2 buttons on the RHS accidentals row, We learn something every day. Thank you!

[pentaprism]

>> I wasn't aware that some Irish players have that non-standard layout on the first 2 buttons on the RHS accidentals row

 

In fact, that layout is pretty common. Dana Johnson made it "standard" on his concertinas: Kensington Concertina Standard Key Layout.

 

For my concertina, I asked him to change the first button from C#/C# to D#/C#.

 

 

[Erland]

5 hours ago, The Crimson Avenger said:

 

Glad they were at least a little helpful!

 

I learned something too! When I looked at my 'personal tune book' I found ~10 tunes which either had the title 'Trollpolska', (or some variant),

or which were flagged as coming from Dalarna. All were in Dm, except one. Also, I wasn't aware that some Irish players have that non-standard

layout on the first 2 buttons on the RHS accidentals row, We learn something every day. Thank you!

 

Yes!

 

Dalarna is the region in Sweden with percentage most tunes in the Minor keys, with a lot! in DM, and many of this tunes have C# here and there. I think the C# give the tune a sort of "Bluenote" sound in that key.

 

Several melancholic, but at the same time very beautiful polskas come from that region, and from the north of Värmland (my homeregion). Other regions with a lot of tunes in Minor keys are Lappland, and quite many from Jämtland.

[Richard Mellish]

I have a Bflat/F baritone, one intended purpose of which was for playing Swedish tunes in G minor and D minor, but I've never got on very well with that so I'm now having one made with basic keys G and D but diatonic minor. I had noted that Swedish minor tunes tend to have a sharp seventh (a bit like classical melodic minor but not exactly) and I wasn't very sure what to do about that, but in the end I'm keeping those notes sharp, the same as on a normal G/D, and hope to be get used to finding the flat sevenths on other buttons when I need them.

 

I know one Swedsh tune (I think from Jämtland, anyway it fits some dances from there) which is in G-minorish, with the F always sharp, the B always flat, and the C sometimes natural and sometimes sharp. I think the E, which you might expect to be flat, does come in at all.

[PaddyLosty]

4 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

I have a Bflat/F baritone, one intended purpose of which was for playing Swedish tunes in G minor and D minor, but I've never got on very well with that so I'm now having one made with basic keys G and D but diatonic minor. I had noted that Swedish minor tunes tend to have a sharp seventh (a bit like classical melodic minor but not exactly) and I wasn't very sure what to do about that, but in the end I'm keeping those notes sharp, the same as on a normal G/D, and hope to be get used to finding the flat sevenths on other buttons when I need them.

 

I know one Swedsh tune (I think from Jämtland, anyway it fits some dances from there) which is in G-minorish, with the F always sharp, the B always flat, and the C sometimes natural and sometimes sharp. I think the E, which you might expect to be flat, does come in at all.

Who made your Bb/F Baritone, Richard?

[Richard Mellish]

My Bb/F Baritone is a Dipper.

[Cathasach]

On 7/30/2020 at 10:13 PM, The Crimson Avenger said:

I'm guessing that you mean what I would call a C/G?

 

You seem unsure about the correspondence between layouts across the C/G and Bb/F configurations? I'm attaching layout

diagrams for my 30-button Wolverstone C/G and 30-button Lachenal Bb/F semi-miniature instruments. Both are (I think)

more or less standard layouts. Sorry about the different format - I haven't got around to creating a Professor McCann diagram

for the Wolverstone yet...

 

You will see that the aR1 button is C#/Eb on the C/G instrument, and is a (corresponding) B/C# on the Bb/F instrument. I'm

not aware that a C#/C# button is common? The C/G Marcus Traveller has a single accidental (in the aR1 position), and this

is also C#/Eb. (*) It looks as if your instrument has a 'non-standard' layout on the Right hand side accidentals row?

 

Do Marcus do a Bb/F then? I didn't know that.

 

I hope those layout diagrams help.

 

 

 

 

I just got a Lachenal Bb/F from Barleycorn and it has this layout except the bottom left-most button is A-1/G-1 and the G-1/F-1 is a G-1/G#(Ab)-1

 

Very weird although I really don't use any of those so it doesn't seem to affect me.