Inside A Mini?

[aPeacefulWarrior]

Hi all, I was wondering if anyone with a mini concertina could post pics of its inside or give a description. I'm wondering how they cram all the action, reeds, etc. into such a small box. I know that there are less buttons... and perhaps higher pitched reeds too. I am also wondering about reed placement. I've heard that sometimes concertinas have reeds on different levels. Sounds very interesting! Also, couldn't a concertina fit more if the reeds were perpendicular instead of parrelel(like in an accordion)?

[Richard Morse]

"Miniature" concertinas were/are traditionally made just as the vintage ones where with the same types and arrangements of reeds, reedpan, chambers, action, etc.... just less of them and usually higher notes (therefore shorter/smaller reeds as associated stuff).

 

The only concertinas I know that have reeds on different levels are some Englishes that Bastari/Stagi makes (and not necessarily their miniatures). This layering makes the inboard reeds slower to respond and have a decided different tonal character than the other reeds.

 

A concertina typically *wouldn't* be able to fit in more reeds if they were installed perpendicularly because normally any perpendicular reeds would extend into the bellows space, and there is considerably more area adjacent to the bellows FOLDS as opposed to WITHIN the bellows (the void in the center of the bellows).

 

This of course depends on the size of the bellows and the depth of the folds. Concertinas typically being small, hexagonal, and with deep folks means that there is more real estate available adjacent to the folds rather than in the void. Larger instruments like Chemnizter/bandoneons and accordions have shallower folds and a lot larger bellows - which is also square - making for more void area which is also shaped more conducively to afford efficient packing of perpendicular banks of reeds.

 

There are only two vintage concertinas I'm aware of that had perpendicularly placed reeds. One was a Lachenal that was called an "organtina" (if I remember correctly). It had very large/long reeds/chambers which were packed within the bellows frame and so did NOT extend into the bellows void. It was pretty strange looking as the ends were about 1/2" thick, bellows frames were about 3" thick, and bellows fold part were only about 2". Sadly, I never took any photos of it....

 

The other perpendicularly-reeded concertina came up on eBay several years ago which has been dubbed the "Blue Meanie" (which actually had black bellows, not blue - it was a poor photo they'd originally posted) which is a 10-sided Maccann that appears to be a custom job made from Lachenal parts. Its reeds are mounted perpendicularly in individual round chambers, also within the bellows frame, not in the void. This is a particularly interesting box in that it has some tricky mechanisma to allow the air to sound the SAME reeds on push AND pull, and also has doubled reeds on the treble side.

[aPeacefulWarrior]

Thanks for the info Richard!

 

I have a few questions about your response.

 

First, how noticable is the different tonal character of different leveled reeds? Any ideas on how this could be corrected?

 

And while still thinking about tonal character... Would you think that perpendicular reeds would have a different tonal character then parallel reeds? I'm considering what a design might look like that uses both perpendicular and parallel reeds since it sounds like parallel ones would fit better under the bellow folds but perpendicular ones could work in the void.(although it sounds like there are no concertinas out there that actually have reeds that extend into the void)

 

Now, I realize that in order to have the perpendicular reeds in the void, I would pretty much need valve holes in the button guide board(with my button layout anyway)... which isn't exactly possible(well actually, I think I remember seeing that somewhere). But anyway... I am considering a design that will redirect air from one hole to another using layers. I guess that sounds pretty crazy, but I'm just having fun thinking about it and designing it...

 

Sorry... I don't know if all that made sense!

 

I suppose I could just use higher pitched reeds... But thats just not as fun!

 

Oh yes, and my last question: do you have any idea how that blue meanie works? I mean the system where it uses the same reeds for the push and the pull... thats pretty trippy.

 

Thanks for all your help!

 

--Jesse Borges--

Edited July 28, 2004 by aPeacefulWarrior

[Richard Morse]

First, how noticeable is the different tonal character of different leveled reeds? Any ideas on how this could be corrected?

Quite noticeable. The second tier ones are slightly softer and somewhat muffled sounding. This could be ameliorated (to some extent) by making the holes to the tiered reeds larger (to let the sound come through better), shape the chambers better (I seem to remember that they were overlong), and make the tier more substantial and better fastened to the rest of the instrument (it had a loose metal hinge on one side and a wooden turn-toggle on the other, both of which didn't enable adequate contact with the rest of the instrument = inadequate vibration transfer).

 

And while still thinking about tonal character... Would you think that perpendicular reeds would have a different tonal character then parallel reeds?

Most certainly. There are many accordions which have both perpendicular and parallel mounted reeds, some with identical pitched reeds in each (mainly Cajun style 1-rows) set of reeds with stops to selectively actuate each. It's quite easy to sound one set and immediate sound the second for comparison.

 

...it sounds like there are no concertinas out there that actually have reeds that extend into the void

There are actually a lot of them extending back over 100 years. Virtually all of those were German-made low-end 20-button anglos with ganged plates (usually two zinc reedplates per side with 10 reeds in each). More recently the Italians have made similar concertinas though with two reeds per aluminum reedplate. Even more recently Stagi is currently producing Hayden duets which have a mix of parallel and perpendicular reeds.

 

...do you have any idea how that blue meanie works? I mean the system where it uses the same reeds for the push and the pull... that's pretty trippy.

I had corresponded at length about it with both the owner Neil Wayne and Howard Mitchell (who examined it and made a wonderful diagram about its operation. A lot of their effort went into documenting the box which I don't feel right about posting here. It would be best to contact them for more exacting information, or if there's a concertina.net groundswell of curiosity about the box they may be persuaded to put up a page about it or allow me to copy some of their work to this forum.

[aPeacefulWarrior]

Alright, thanks Richard...

 

I will do some experimenting with what youve said in mind.

 

I've also emailed the people you mentioned... I'm really curious about that same reed for push/pull thing. Maybe I will do some experiments with that.

[Ken_Coles]

...it sounds like there are no concertinas out there that actually have reeds that extend into the void

There are actually a lot of them extending back over 100 years. Virtually all of those were German-made low-end 20-button anglos with ganged plates (usually two zinc reedplates per side with 10 reeds in each). More recently the Italians have made similar concertinas though with two reeds per aluminum reedplate. Even more recently Stagi is currently producing Hayden duets which have a mix of parallel and perpendicular reeds.

I have one other example. I have a Geuns-Wakker baritone anglo. The four lowest pairs of reeds are mounted on a wood box that extends into the interior of the bellows at an angle somewhat less than 90 degrees from the reed board. The ends are slightly deeper to make room for this. Doug at the BBox opened it up for a look at my invitation and agreed that it was well-executed, with the timbre and volume matching that of the other reeds pretty well.

[d.elliott]

May be I am missing the point of the discussion, but many bass instruments had reed mounted on independent chamber boxes that were mounted stood off and away from the reed pan, well into the bellows chamber.

 

Dave

[Richard Morse]

May be I am missing the point of the discussion, but many bass instruments had reed mounted on independent chamber boxes that were mounted stood off and away from the reed pan, well into the bellows chamber.

The discussion started out being how to cram lots of reeds into concertinas and why don't more have them installed them perpendicularly (later clarified to take advantage of the bellows void).

 

The bass concertinas you mention still have reeds mounted parallel and within the bellows frame, not perpendicular and extending into the bellows void (between the folds).

[d.elliott]

Ah, so it did,

 

and so they do

 

D