koeter Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thank you Dan. This was very helpfull indeed. Juergen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 As a long-time Hayden player, I'd be interested to know why you didn't chose a Hayden (or Wicki)? I'm not trying to suggest that you made the wrong choice or that I'd be hurt if you gave me a convincing reason. It's just that if there is a real reason that the chromatiphone wins out over the Hayden, I'd like to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) Hello David, Any choice of instrument and its format seems, to me, to be a very personal choice with many variables at play - not the least of which are cognition and physiology. I tried a Hayden layout on two separate occasions and I simply did not find it comfortable or efficient. There are several reasons, but the most important ones are: - it is not completely isomorphic - uniform, yes - but not isomorphic - to me - the absence of an A# or a Gb which would make both outer accidental ranks "comparable" and diminish the stretch for the Bb and the F# from their natural semi-tones. I have attached a jpg to illustrate what, to me, is a deficiency in the Wicki layout. All of the criteria that I previously listed and the comments that I've expressed - all of them - are real reasons. To that extent, if one reason, "...if there is a real reason that the chromatiphone wins out over the Hayden, I'd like to see it." is truly the answer that you seek, I do not have the answer for you. In my case, I prefer the Stark layout which helps to overcome my limitations rather than my having to overcome its limitations. I prefer the Stark layout as it provides more proximity and better suits my own cognition and physiology. This melodic sequence may be helpful in illustrating it: Bb-B-D-Eb-F-F#-F-Eb-D-D-Bb-Eb-Eb You may play this sequence easily on the Wicki. I could not develop an easy transit for this passage. My psyche just prefers that the semitones/accidentals are in-line with the naturals rather than located off-to-the-side. My fingers seem to travel more easily in a horizontal direction. The Wicki locates octaves vertically (octaves above/below) while the Stark locates them horizontally (octaves side-to-side). Again, my cognition just relates to this more readily. Perhaps its all the years of piano. Octaves occur along the axis of the thumb and little finger not the wrist and the fingertips. Along this line, I think the Wicki layout is confusing to me as I don't "expect" the adjacent diagonal buttons to be fourths and fifths, but semitones - again, more like a piano keyboard. The Stark does not accomplish this fully, but it is more closely oriented that way. The Wicki, to me, is much more akin to a Stradella layout which is based on the circle-of-fifths. Edited to correct typos and add the jpg which I forgot. Edited January 31, 2011 by danersen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) During intermission at symphony this afternoon, it occurred to me that the fingering systems of oboes and clarinets may be a useful analogy to concertina layouts. To my knowledge, there are at least three "standard" (recognized and utilized) fingering systems for oboes - English, French, and German. Add to that full or partial conservatorie, full or partial automatic, second and third octave rings, and more - trill keys, etc. There are also three recognized and utilized clarinet fingering systems of which I am aware - Boehm, Albert, and Oehler. Here there are also added keys, mechanisms, and even extended notes. All are currently available and in-use by world-class professional musicians. Is any one better than the others. In one sense, yes. It is better to the musician who chooses it for her/his own inclinations, purposes, and repertoire. I think the same may be applicable to concertina layouts and those who choose them for their own individual inclinations, purposes, and repertoire. The success or popularity of one does not diminish the value or relevance of any other. Edited January 17, 2011 by danersen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SqueezeCat Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Particularly intriguing as we can expect some (albeit likely rare) antique chromatiphone bandonions to be available. Speaking of... one has just turned up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Rowlands Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Particularly intriguing as we can expect some (albeit likely rare) antique chromatiphone bandonions to be available. Speaking of... one has just turned up here. I bought this one - it has two reeds per note tuned in octaves on the left hand side, and two near-unison musette tuned on the right. It's in fairly playable condition, so should be a lot of fun getting to grips with the layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) WONDERFUL, Julian! Grand to know that now I'm not the only one around here playing Stark's layout. If you get a moment, I am very interested to know which row is the C-E-G# row. Taking a BWAG, it appears that the dots may be locating the C,F,G tones or the G,C,D tones - depending on the tones in the repeating rows.. How close are these guesses? I am also interested to know location of Middle C in both hands. No rush. Just curious. Enjoy! Dan Edited June 25, 2012 by danersen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Rowlands Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Hi Dan, Actually the dots are the "black" notes - on quite a few the paint has rubbed off, so difficult to see the pattern on the photos. The row layouts start like this: (c1 = middle c) Right: a c#1 f1 g# c1 e1 g b d#1 a# d1 f#1 a c#1 f1 (same as row 1) Left: C# F A C E G# B D# G D F# A# C# F A (same as row 1) Middle C on the left is three buttons from the end of row 2. The covers have holes for an additional row above, and the right hand has outlines of 3 additional holes on the right. Presumably the factory used the same covers for different models. My main instrument is the tango bandoneon so I've been keen to find out how it feels to play a completely "logical" instrument, i.e. the complete opposite of what I am used to ... so far it seems like a pretty good system. I wonder how many of these instruments were actually built? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Copeland Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 I'm seeing all these comments on the layout of the chromatiphone, and assume that those commenting have seen a diagram of it somewhere on the site, but so far I haven't managed to track this diagram down. Can someone please point me in the right direction? This is a problem I often have with forums like this - lots of discussion, but no clue where to find the thing being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 3 hours ago, Neil Copeland said: I'm seeing all these comments on the layout of the chromatiphone, and assume that those commenting have seen a diagram of it somewhere on the site, but so far I haven't managed to track this diagram down. Can someone please point me in the right direction? This is a problem I often have with forums like this - lots of discussion, but no clue where to find the thing being discussed. https://www.wakker-concertinas.com/C-2.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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