Baritone keyboard

[Selah]

I'm now a newbie WITH a concertina to begin playing. Just received my little 48-k Wheatstone hex baritone. Although I'm beginning simply learning to play as a treble, my head is having a hard time wrapping around the differences in playing it truly as a baritone, as with reading bass clef. Any links out there to provide visuals like in treble/tenor tutors?

Thanks!

[Larry Stout]

The music I've seen for Baritone EC writes it in treble clef to sound one octave lower. That makes a baritone play exactly the way a treble plays, just sounding an octave down. I'm quite fond of mine, though I usually play a treble or tenor-treble when playing in sessions or for dances. My baritone is a nickel-silver reeded one from sometime before 1856 (probably before 1850) and is quite mellow and quiet.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Larry Stout

[John Adey]

I'm now a newbie WITH a concertina to begin playing. Just received my little 48-k Wheatstone hex baritone. Although I'm beginning simply learning to play as a treble, my head is having a hard time wrapping around the differences in playing it truly as a baritone, as with reading bass clef. Any links out there to provide visuals like in treble/tenor tutors?

Thanks!

 

My advice, as a baritone and treble player, is to learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch. This will mean a reversal of the fingering positions that you would use on the treble instrument. Then use the lower notes - the baritone range, to fill out with harmonies. Look at Mark Gilston's videos on YouTube for superb examples of the use of the baritone in this way. Beats the range of a TenorTreble anyday!

 

Forgive me, I just realised that you asked in the topic title about the layout of the keyboard. Here's a link to a posting by Geoffrey Crabb, where you'll find a full explanation of the ranges of different English concertinas.

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11014&st=0&p=110084&fromsearch=1entry110084

 

 

Good luck.

 

John

Edited April 13, 2010 by John Adey

[Selah]

The music I've seen for Baritone EC writes it in treble clef to sound one octave lower. That makes a baritone play exactly the way a treble plays, just sounding an octave down. I'm quite fond of mine, though I usually play a treble or tenor-treble when playing in sessions or for dances. My baritone is a nickel-silver reeded one from sometime before 1856 (probably before 1850) and is quite mellow and quiet.

 

Larry,

I've heard a treble with silver reeds and it had a wonderfully sweet sound. Is yours 5 or 6 bellows? Those lowest notes can be slow to come on to my beginner's touch. All baritone ins are appreciated.

[Selah]

I'm now a newbie WITH a concertina to begin playing. Just received my little 48-k Wheatstone hex baritone. Although I'm beginning simply learning to play as a treble, my head is having a hard time wrapping around the differences in playing it truly as a baritone, as with reading bass clef. Any links out there to provide visuals like in treble/tenor tutors?

Thanks!

 

My advice, as a baritone and treble player, is to learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch. This will mean a reversal of the fingering positions that you would use on the treble instrument. Then use the lower notes - the baritone range, to fill out with harmonies. Look at Mark Gilston's videos on YouTube for superb examples of the use of the baritone in this way. Beats the range of a TenorTreble anyday!

 

Forgive me, I just realised that you asked in the topic title about the layout of the keyboard. Here's a link to a posting by Geoffrey Crabb, where you'll find a full explanation of the ranges of different English concertinas.

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11014&st=0&p=110084&fromsearch=1entry110084

 

 

Good luck.

 

John

 

John,

Thanks for the link -- definitely helpful in knowing that I have a transposed baritone. Your suggestion sounds like a good idea for better use of its range. My only hesitancy to begin playing this way is 2-fold:

1)I'm pretty visual, so playing the upper ranges of a treble on my baritone flips my brain when trying to adapt using the tutors to learn the mere basics.

2)At some point I think I'd like to get a baritone-treble which then switches the mid-C to the other side. Seems to complicate matters...

 

Any suggestions/support for a tina newbie is most welcome! I will be needing more than luck, believe me.

[Roger Gawley]

Those lowest notes can be slow to come on to my beginner's touch.

 

They can be but they do not have to be. The baritone that I normally play is decidedly slow and uneven in response towards the bottom end but I have played an instrument that was even and responsive all the way. Not mine, I regret. I did not ask but I suspect that the value would exceed that of my car.

[Larry Stout]

 

 

Larry,

I've heard a treble with silver reeds and it had a wonderfully sweet sound. Is yours 5 or 6 bellows? Those lowest notes can be slow to come on to my beginner's touch. All baritone ins are appreciated.

 

It has 5 fold bellows. I had Wim Wakker do some work on it after I got it and its response is quite good. The bellows are quite tight and the reeds are well voiced. I like the sound. Wim said it might never be a great player, a bit slow, but that it could have its own charm. That sounds like like a description of me as well, but I won't last 160 years.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Larry Stout

[Chris Drinkwater]

 

 

Larry,

I've heard a treble with silver reeds and it had a wonderfully sweet sound. Is yours 5 or 6 bellows? Those lowest notes can be slow to come on to my beginner's touch. All baritone ins are appreciated.

 

It has 5 fold bellows. I had Wim Wakker do some work on it after I got it and it's response is quite good. The bellows are quite tight and the reeds are well voiced. I like the sound. Wim said it might never be a great player, a bit slow, but that it could have its own charm. That sounds like like a description of me as well, but I won't last 160 years.

 

 

I guess yours is a parlour instrument, like my 1854 Wheatstone baritone, Larry, and would have been used to accompany a singer, rather than used to play fast jigs and reels! My baritone also has a few notes that are slower to respond than others. That said, it's a lovely instrument. It has brass reeds and produces a beautiful, mellow sound. The very lowest notes sound almost like a church organ. There can't be that many survivors like it from that era. Like Roger, I have played a more modern Wheatstone baritone belonging to a friend and I could play tunes on that as fast as can on my treble, so good was the response.

 

Chris

[Selah]

I'm now a newbie WITH a concertina to begin playing. Just received my little 48-k Wheatstone hex baritone. Although I'm beginning simply learning to play as a treble, my head is having a hard time wrapping around the differences in playing it truly as a baritone, as with reading bass clef. Any links out there to provide visuals like in treble/tenor tutors?

Thanks!

 

My advice, as a baritone and treble player, is to learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch. This will mean a reversal of the fingering positions that you would use on the treble instrument. Then use the lower notes - the baritone range, to fill out with harmonies. Look at Mark Gilston's videos on YouTube for superb examples of the use of the baritone in this way. Beats the range of a TenorTreble anyday!

 

Forgive me, I just realised that you asked in the topic title about the layout of the keyboard. Here's a link to a posting by Geoffrey Crabb, where you'll find a full explanation of the ranges of different English concertinas.

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11014&st=0&p=110084&fromsearch=1entry110084

 

 

Good luck.

 

John

[Selah]

I'm now a newbie WITH a concertina to begin playing. Just received my little 48-k Wheatstone hex baritone. Although I'm beginning simply learning to play as a treble, my head is having a hard time wrapping around the differences in playing it truly as a baritone, as with reading bass clef. Any links out there to provide visuals like in treble/tenor tutors?

Thanks!

 

My advice, as a baritone and treble player, is to learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch. This will mean a reversal of the fingering positions that you would use on the treble instrument. Then use the lower notes - the baritone range, to fill out with harmonies. Look at Mark Gilston's videos on YouTube for superb examples of the use of the baritone in this way. Beats the range of a TenorTreble anyday!

 

Forgive me, I just realised that you asked in the topic title about the layout of the keyboard. Here's a link to a posting by Geoffrey Crabb, where you'll find a full explanation of the ranges of different English concertinas.

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11014&st=0&p=110084&fromsearch=1entry110084

 

 

Good luck.

 

John

 

John!

Playing the baritone this way makes total sense BUT in practice very challenging for me. Although I'm attempting to create my own diagram to play my little baritone (transposed Wheatstone), I am frustrated by my confusion in doing so. My brain is having a hard time converting that the notes in the spaces are now on the left, and the notes on the lines on the right...

I seem to need keyboard, notes and scale on one page as a visual for it to make sense. Ever seen one?

Hoping so, Selah

[Larry Stout]

See if this helps:ECStaff.pdf

 

Edited to get baritone range right. I don't read bass clef too well.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Larry Stout

[buikligger]

hello friends,

 

I didn't quite follow the whole discussion, but let me add this about treble and baritone concertina's.

 

After been exploring my English treble Tina for two years i went to the Drumshanbo summer school last year. I had been playing in the 2 highest octaves, and Noel Hill advised me to consider playing an octave lower, in order to play the same notes as he did on his Anglo instrument. So I would need to relearn/rethink all the finger positions I had been learning so far. And I would have needed to bend my fingers in (to me) very unnatural positions.

 

To solution came from Derek (UK) and Leonard (Netherlands) when they advised to swap instruments instead: putting the treble aside and taking a baritone can produce the same notes just an octave lower. So a can continue to practice with my treble and buy a baritone later.

 

kind greetings from Dirk

[m3838]

My advice, as a baritone and treble player, is to learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch.

http://www.concertin...=1entry110084

 

 

On the first look it makes sense to play instrument as is.

On the other the reason for Baritone is to have lower sounding concertina.

Sure one can completely ignore it, especially if one's baritone has full range and lots of music rarely goes much above second C. What's the point though? I can understand it, if Baritone was acquired without knowing it's a Baritone. If its' a first and only concertina.

In this case there are two scenarios.

1. You like the sound of Treble concertina and Baritone is too low. Then learn it as is and play music as written. So if it's written in Treble clef, you'll be playing in treble clef.

2. You are like many others, who dislike shrill sound of high reeds. Then you just pretend it's Treble. Then all written music will sound an octave lower.

On the third look there is another consideration: Much of music written specifically for EC avoids high notes and puts emphasis on lower range (for obvious reasons, to me). This kind of music will not sound good on Baritone, if played octave down. If you are playing from flute score (like "easy flute duets", for example), octave down may sound very good. Violin music is often written way up and will sound compromised on Treble.

Ideally it would be great to learn both ways and choose your "instrument" according to the music. Wouldn't it be swell to have two instruments in one?

But tell you what - lucky you are. My Jack didn't have those high notes and the ONLY way to play it was octave down.

My Tenor (in F, 5 tones down from Treble) is too, has short range and doesn't allow such luxury as to play as written.

There you go.

 

 

 

 

[Selah]

This IS my first and only concertina. I am your #2 -- don't like the the high notes and love the deep rich ones. Some folks discouraged my beginning with a baritone but I must have missed understanding "why not" (perhaps this is it!), BUT I knew I wouldn't last long hearing myself learning on a treble.

 

When you speak of a baritone's "full range", are you speaking of a 48k, an extended model, or both? The above recommendation to "learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch [...using the lower tones to harmonize]" means to me to play the "actual Mid-C on R side" leaving more equal number notes on either side for greater use of the baritone range. Did I miss the boat here?

 

Would one not be missing using a baritone's full range by simply playing it like a treble? That asked, bear with my ignorance a moment. I am assuming that we are talking of "pretending" baritone's mid-C is on the left hand (when that is actually "C below mid-c") rather than using the actual mid-c which then switches to the R side. When you speak of "learning both ways and choosing the instrument according to the music", is this what you mean -- learn both "pretend and actual"??

 

Simply transposing the music for the need seems a lofty goal but this may be where I'm complicating my beginning point. For the sake of other newbies who thought they remembered something of music from their childhoods but didn't, I now realize I am a total beginner in all realms. I have to say that you all may have no idea how much you've know and understand about concertinas and music!

[m3838]

I knew I wouldn't last long hearing myself learning on a treble.

Ok, so your situation is a lot simpler. Just pretend it's a treble, where Mid C is in your left hand and you'll be playing in nice low growly tone. I was like that too, until I realized that I like polyphony, and with polyphony higher range sounds better. Baritone was a bit too low for my taste, so I bought Tenor, an inbetween model. (playing in C, as written it sounds 5 tones down, in F). However even with tenor I'm back to my Jackie, the music I like to play sounds better higher up. My Tenor sits unplayed.

 

When you speak of a baritone's "full range", are you speaking of a 48k

 

48. Not sure what "K" stands for.

 

to "learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch [...using the lower tones to harmonize]" means to me to play the "actual Mid-C on R side" leaving more equal number notes on either side for greater use of the baritone range. Did I miss the boat here?

 

 

No, you got it right.

 

Would one not be missing using a baritone's full range by simply playing it like a treble?

 

I would simply not bother with questions like that. You miss somewhere, gain somewhere. It's a compromise, like everything else. Regardless of true meaning of your question (which is a little foggy to me).

 

When you speak of "learning both ways and choosing the instrument according to the music", is this what you mean -- learn both "pretend and actual"??

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

 

 

[Selah]

I appreciate your specific answers to my confusion! It's hard to ask clear questions with limited understanding (my fogginess...) of this new "tina/music language".

I do get stuck on details instead of just getting on with it. Most simply, I didn't want to begin only to need to soon re-learn something vital when the learning curve in the "second 50 yrs" already seems so steep!

Happy to begin again...

[John Adey]

 

John!

Playing the baritone this way makes total sense BUT in practice very challenging for me. Although I'm attempting to create my own diagram to play my little baritone (transposed Wheatstone), I am frustrated by my confusion in doing so. My brain is having a hard time converting that the notes in the spaces are now on the left, and the notes on the lines on the right...

I seem to need keyboard, notes and scale on one page as a visual for it to make sense. Ever seen one?

Hoping so, Selah

 

Sorry for not responding sooner; I've been away.

 

I don't know of a chart for baritone with 'keyboard, notes and scale on one page', but why not make one for yourself? That way, you'd get what you want and be working out the true position of each note on the stave and learning by doing.

Since you're a relative newcomer to the instrument, it seems that you are in a good position to learn to play in this way. You are fortunate to know already how you want to use the instrument, by using most of its range by playing at its correct pitch. If you learn to play that way now you'll not have too much contamination of having learned treble. (Can you detect the envy in my words? I'm trying to do just that, undo my previous learning and switch fingering in this way having taken many years to realise that that is what I want to do!)

Good luck,

John

[m3838]

Since you're a relative newcomer to the instrument, it seems that you are in a good position to learn to play in this way. You are fortunate to know already how you want to use the instrument, by using most of its range by playing at its correct pitch. If you learn to play that way now you'll not have too much contamination of having learned treble. (Can you detect the envy in my words? I'm trying to do just that, undo my previous learning and switch fingering in this way having taken many years to realise that that is what I want to do!)

Good luck,

John

 

John!

I would be very interested if you elaborate on your ideas.

1. ...using most of it's range by playing at it's correct pitch

2.... too much contamination of having learned treble.

Can you perhaps provide some music (written or played) illustrating these ideas?

 

Specifically, 1. because many common arrangements use most of treble stave space plus two (rarely three) ledger lines above and below the stave, playing baritone in it's true pitch will miss on higher range, but have available, but not used low notes.

2. Why is it wrong to have dexterity of knowing two fingerings of the same keyboard? After all it is common among musicians to read bass cleff as treble and vice versa. Another helper would be to imagine that you play your Baritone an octave higher and your brain is not at strain anymore. Granted it takes practice, but it's not like learning two keyboards.

 

 

Can you layout your arguments? I'm missing your point.

Thanks.