michael sam wild Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) I've just been reading a book about the amazing Joe Grimaldi the clown ( his character was firstpresented in 1802). Apparently his Gradfather also Joey was an acrobat who was known as 'Iron Legs'. He once leapt and broke a chandelier and sent shards of glass in to the eye and throat of the Ottoman ambassador to Paris. Any connection with the tune? I know a lot of stage tunes were named after performers and characters around that time Incidentally I once saw a superb TV programme with Bob Hoskins as Joe Grimaldi but I can't find it on YouTube ( any links welcomed) All I could find was this but it is restricted to educational establishments The Story of Pantomime, Omnibus, BBC 23 December 1976 http://www.spokenword.ac.uk/record_view.php?pbd=gcu-a0a4e0-a Edited October 24, 2009 by michael sam wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Drinkwater Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I've just been reading a book about the amazing Joe Grimaldi the clown ( his character was firstpresented in 1802). Apparently his Gradfather also Joey was an acrobat who was known as 'Iron Legs'. He once leapt and broke a chandelier and sent shards of glass in to the eye and throat of the Ottoman ambassador to Paris. Any connection with the tune? I know a lot of stage tunes were named after performers and characters around that time Incidentally I once saw a superb TV programme with Bob Hoskins as Joe Grimaldi but I can't find it on YouTube ( any links welcomed) All I could find was this but it is restricted to educational establishments The Story of Pantomime, Omnibus, BBC 23 December 1976 http://www.spokenword.ac.uk/record_view.php?pbd=gcu-a0a4e0-a The tune Iron Legs - no connection to Joey Grimaldi, I am afraid, though he gave his name to clowns, sometimes known as Joeys. I believe it relates to the 1st Duke of Wellington, also known as The Iron Duke. The tune is a hornpipe in D and probably these days, the most widely played of the tunes noted down by nineteenth-century Cumberland fiddle player, William Irwin. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 I've just been reading a book about the amazing Joe Grimaldi the clown ( his character was firstpresented in 1802). Apparently his Gradfather also Joey was an acrobat who was known as 'Iron Legs'. He once leapt and broke a chandelier and sent shards of glass in to the eye and throat of the Ottoman ambassador to Paris. Any connection with the tune? I know a lot of stage tunes were named after performers and characters around that time Incidentally I once saw a superb TV programme with Bob Hoskins as Joe Grimaldi but I can't find it on YouTube ( any links welcomed) All I could find was this but it is restricted to educational establishments The Story of Pantomime, Omnibus, BBC 23 December 1976 http://www.spokenword.ac.uk/record_view.php?pbd=gcu-a0a4e0-a The tune Iron Legs - no connection to Joey Grimaldi, I am afraid, though he gave his name to clowns, sometimes known as Joeys. I believe it relates to the 1st Duke of Wellington, also known as The Iron Duke. The tune is a hornpipe in D and probably these days, the most widely played of the tunes noted down by nineteenth-century Cumberland fiddle player, William Irwin. Chris Hi Chris , on what authority?. Barry Callaghan cites Grimaldi connection in Hardcore English. Other cite some mysterious Iron League. This needs getting to the bottom of I think. Myths flourish where conjecture rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 The tune Iron Legs - no connection to Joey Grimaldi, I am afraid, though he gave his name to clowns, sometimes known as Joeys. I believe it relates to the 1st Duke of Wellington, also known as The Iron Duke. The tune is a hornpipe in D and probably these days, the most widely played of the tunes noted down by nineteenth-century Cumberland fiddle player, William Irwin. Hi Chris , on what authority?. Barry Callaghan cites Grimaldi connection in Hardcore English. Other cite some mysterious Iron League. This needs getting to the bottom of I think. Myths flourish where conjecture rules! Aye. And an obsession with "getting to the bottom" of things is one of the greatest generators of myth in the world. Yep. There are lots of folks who would much rather be convinced of an attractive fabrication than accept the possibility that we have no way of actually knowing the truth. But I do love learning about history, connectedness, and such, and if we really can trace the history of this tune -- or tunes, if it turns out there's more than one by the same name, -- then I'll be pleased to learn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 I too like the background to a tune it all sets a context. As far as Iron Legs is concerned we know it was around in the 1700s. Just cos Wm Irwin played it doesn't make it a Lake District tune as some have claimed. Old Iron Legs Giuseppe Grimaldi (snr) was a dancing master at Sadlers Wells so there may be a connection. The theatre was a great source of popular music for toffs and the common people in the cheap seats too and stage performers were the pop stars of the day. Ballad and tune publishers plugged such tunes . Many popular tues had words added later ( as Burns did, or used tunes for his poems which were often used for singing) I find tunes pop into the head much easier with a lyric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I find tunes pop into the head much easier with a lyric. And I find that words pop into my head much more easily with a tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 I find tunes pop into the head much easier with a lyric. And I find that words pop into my head much more easily with a tune. Agreed! it's the corollary. Poetry would be more popular if sung and I'm sure a lot of it was in the olden days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I find tunes pop into the head much easier with a lyric. And I find that words pop into my head much more easily with a tune. Agreed! it's the corollary. Poetry would be more popular if sung and I'm sure a lot of it was in the olden days. Waddya mean, "would be"? Much poetry is sung. What's a song, if it's not a combination of poetry and music? And songs are definitely popular. On the other hand, there are some poems that I've greatly enjoyed in recitation form, but which have failed miserably (IMO) when someone has set them to music. And it's not necessarily the particular melody that's at fault. Sometimes the existence of a melody at all is too constraining on rhythmic freedom and vocal expression... or it may distract from the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 Your comment ' Waddya mean, 'would be' Much poetry is sung'. I'm sure you know what I meant. Ask most people what Poetry is and it will be read or spoken not sung. It's lyrics if it's sung to most folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Your comment ' Waddya mean, 'would be' Much poetry is sung'. I'm sure you know what I meant. Ask most people what Poetry is and it will be read or spoken not sung. It's lyrics if it's sung to most folk. Sorry. I missed putting a smiley on "Waddya mean?" I meant it with a smile... to suggest that there's more than one way to look at things, not that the viewpoint you expressed was "wrong" and mine "right". But your response suggests that there may also be regional or local differences in how one uses or conceptualizes (yeah, also spells) the words we've used? Throughout my own past there have been many folks explicitly admiring many song lyrics as "poetry", and sometimes deriding others as "doggerel". And there are indeed (IMO, at least) some song lyrics which can also be recited admirably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 Your comment ' Waddya mean, 'would be' Much poetry is sung'. I'm sure you know what I meant. Ask most people what Poetry is and it will be read or spoken not sung. It's lyrics if it's sung to most folk. Sorry. I missed putting a smiley on "Waddya mean?" I meant it with a smile... to suggest that there's more than one way to look at things, not that the viewpoint you expressed was "wrong" and mine "right". But your response suggests that there may also be regional or local differences in how one uses or conceptualizes (yeah, also spells) the words we've used? Throughout my own past there have been many folks explicitly admiring many song lyrics as "poetry", and sometimes deriding others as "doggerel". And there are indeed (IMO, at least) some song lyrics which can also be recited admirably. No offence taken Jim. I have such discussions all the time wih my son who is a rapper. rap is tunes by people who can't sing (my wind up) He writes real good poetry then raps it over a background track. Often his collaborators will send the rap and he'll produce it with the music track. I can read Dylan as poetry but prefer it with his tunes , and I like his voice doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Drinkwater Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I've just been reading a book about the amazing Joe Grimaldi the clown ( his character was firstpresented in 1802). Apparently his Gradfather also Joey was an acrobat who was known as 'Iron Legs'. He once leapt and broke a chandelier and sent shards of glass in to the eye and throat of the Ottoman ambassador to Paris. Any connection with the tune? I know a lot of stage tunes were named after performers and characters around that time Incidentally I once saw a superb TV programme with Bob Hoskins as Joe Grimaldi but I can't find it on YouTube ( any links welcomed) All I could find was this but it is restricted to educational establishments The Story of Pantomime, Omnibus, BBC 23 December 1976 http://www.spokenword.ac.uk/record_view.php?pbd=gcu-a0a4e0-a The tune Iron Legs - no connection to Joey Grimaldi, I am afraid, though he gave his name to clowns, sometimes known as Joeys. I believe it relates to the 1st Duke of Wellington, also known as The Iron Duke. The tune is a hornpipe in D and probably these days, the most widely played of the tunes noted down by nineteenth-century Cumberland fiddle player, William Irwin. Chris Hi Chris , on what authority?. Barry Callaghan cites Grimaldi connection in Hardcore English. Other cite some mysterious Iron League. Hi Mike Why didn't you cite Barry Callaghan in your original posting? I don't have a copy of Hardcore English and didn't know that he cites Grimaldi senior, aka Iron Legs, in connection with the tune. I wonder where he got that source. Sadly, Barry is dead now, so we can't ask him. Someone told me a while ago that the tune took it's name from the fact that 1st Duke of Wellington was nick-named The Iron Duke. I have just looked up the 1st Duke of Wellington to find out how he acquired the nickname 'The Iron Duke'. He was given the monicker apparently after fitting iron shutters to his residence in London, Apsley House, to stop people throwing stones at the windows. So, that someone who told me, was wrong and the Grimaldi connection does seem more likely and legitimate. This needs getting to the bottom of I think. Myths flourish where conjecture rules! Exactly - hit or myth! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 hi Chris The book I read called him Iron Legs and so did Barry's. Still no proof, Barry said he preferred that link. Ive got no further evidence but I'm sure that in the theatrical history of the time there is something lurking. If you like good tune links follow the Jack Lattin thread Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 The book I read called him Iron Legs and so did Barry's. Still no proof, Barry said he preferred that link. Ive got no further evidence but I'm sure that in the theatrical history of the time there is something lurking. If you like good tune links follow the Jack Lattin thread Nothing about an updated parallel to "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court"? (I.e., "Iron L'eggs", to go with the rest of his armor?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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