Rock'n Roll

[Stephen Chambers]

Beatles songs have clever chords and lyrical tunes so I know they often work...

Did you know the Beatles used free-reed instruments in no less than 28 recorded songs? In fact they used them on all of the 13 British LPs except for two.

i didn't realize that about the beatles. now i'm going to have to start obsessively trying to find the free reeds.

You should check out Henry Doktorski's article The Beatles and the Free-Reed Instruments, which lists the tracks.

 

Did you know the Beatles used free-reed instruments in no less than 28 recorded songs? In fact they used them on all of the 13 British LPs except for two.

Mostly harmonicas with the occasional bit of harmonium (on the mellower, less 'rocky' songs), right? The harmonium remains a much maligned and underrated instrument.

Plus a few songs with (dare I utter the words here?) piano accordion...

 

 

John Lennon

Edited October 11, 2009 by Stephen Chambers

[Dirge]

can you post a link to what you mean by jerry lee's glissandi? i cant think of what you mean off the top of my head (sorry).

 

It's the lightning fast upward or downward scales he uses often to end phrases, played by dragging a finger up or down the keyboard, so, no individual fingering of notes (and no black notes). Any Youtube clip of The Killer should show it but try his alltime classic 'Great Balls Of Fire'. I thought an English player could do the same by sliding a finger down both sides timed just right. Not an option on the Anglo or duet.

[Dirge]

can you post a link to what you mean by jerry lee's glissandi? i cant think of what you mean off the top of my head (sorry).

 

It's the lightning fast upward or downward scales he uses often to end phrases, played by dragging a finger up or down the keyboard, so, no individual fingering of notes (and no black notes). Any Youtube clip of The Killer should show it but try his alltime classic 'Great Balls Of Fire'. I thought an English player could do the same by sliding a finger down both sides timed just right. Not an option on the Anglo or duet.

no ,sorry.I prefer to do other things with my concertina.

Jerry L L,is not someone I see as a role model.

I prefer mature women,and I like music.

when i listen to rock and roll,I prefer chuck b,or little R,or Gene V

OR BETTER STILL BIG MAMA THORNTON.

I fancy her.

 

There's no obligation to take these people as role models is there? I may have to revise my listening. although so far I've got no designs on any 12 year old cousins...

[Anglo-Irishman]

I think the reason why the guitar (acoustic or electric) has become the hegemonic instrument in popular music is because: A) it has a naturally rhythmic/percussive sound, and quick note decay (except where effects pedals are used), and it is seen as a 'mellow' complement to the human voice (except in heavy metal and more abrasive styles). The problems facing the concertina as a challenger are, conversely, that: A) the notes do not decay, but will either be short & sharp or extended and drone-like, and, more importantly, the tone tends to be quite bright or even strident, somewhat 'voice-like' in itself ...

If a banjo can't appear in a pop context without people thinking of bluegrass, then a concertina (which, if it exists in the popular consciousness at all, might be 'one of those things played on a pirate ship') would have a much harder struggle. However, it is eminently well-suited to singer-songwriters or 'independent' musicians with more adventurous tastes (after all, if Radiohead can hit the charts using an ondes martinot...).

 

I think this is a good point.

All our instruments have been around for a long time, and each has found a style of music where it fits in and, even more important, has influenced this style of music to an extent that other instruments no longer meet the requirements. The history of piano music from Mozart to Rachmaninov is one of the instrument taking over from the harpsichord, which allowed composers to employ different techniques (dynamics and pedal), which led to developments in the piano aimed at optimising these elements (sustain, volume), which led to a more "colourful", less "rhetorical" style of composition. (You can't play Chopin convincingly on an old Hammerklavier - though Mozart actually comes across better on it!)

 

Rock 'n' roll came from the USA, where the guitar had long been established as a folk instrument, so the new style exploited the existing instrument, which in turn cemented the new style. So rock 'n' roll is basically "rhythm guitar music". Electrification of the guitar (from the jazz side) made the guitar even more versatile and more indispensible in pop music, which is almost invariably amplified.

 

One reason I heard for the revival of the concertina in England during the Folk Scare of the '60s was that it allowed you to sing self-accompanied folk songs without the (I quote:) "rhythmic strait-jacket of the guitar". American folk songs were always rhythmic and "guitary", British folk songs weren't (back then, anyway! Since then, British and Irish folk singers have, with varying degrees of success, introduced the guitar to their instrumentation).

 

So the concertina, quite frankly, has no more place in rock 'n' roll than the saxophone has in Renaissance music. Neither the sax nor the valve trumpet or horn, nor the clarinet nor the keyed flute were around in the Renaissance, whose musical expression was formed by cornetts, krummhorns, sackbuts and recorders.

However, this doesn't stop saxophonists and other modern wind players from playing "Renaissance" music. What they do is to take the abstract musical material - the polyphonic voices - and render them in their very different timbre.

 

Someone who wants to recreate an authentic Renaissance scene, with Elizabethan costumes and Tudor buildings, will of course go for music of viols, recorders and sackbuts. But for nice, polyphonic listening, a modern brass ensemble, or Dowland played on the concert guitar, will get the idea across. There is a market for this kind of recording.

 

The thing to be clear about is that, when you venture into genres that your instrument doesn't belong to, you're not playing that genre - you're playing material from that genre. Can be very nice, depending on how well you play it.

 

Sometimes it doesn't work so well. A Russian friend of mine plays keyboard works on his bayan. Bach Organ works sound magnificent, and harpsichord pieces by Scarlatti, Vivaldi and Bach come over very well - but he steers clear of Romatic piano music. The later piano composers use too much sustain, letting notes run into each other to produce their colourful effects, and you can't do that with free reeds. So some "borrowed" music is suitable, some apparently similar music isn't. Depends which instrument influenced the music.

 

My attitide is that if I find material I like (a melody, a chord progression, a rhythmic motif), wherever it comes from, I'll try it on the concertina. If it works, it becomes part of my personal repertoire on my personal concertina.

 

Basic tenet: the concertina as such, and the Crane duet in particular, is a young instrument, and was intended to play music that was already there, or which might yet be written. Do it!

 

Cheers,

John

[Dirge]

Sometimes it doesn't work so well. A Russian friend of mine plays keyboard works on his bayan. Bach Organ works sound magnificent, and harpsichord pieces by Scarlatti, Vivaldi and Bach come over very well - but he steers clear of Romatic piano music. The later piano composers use too much sustain, letting notes run into each other to produce their colourful effects, and you can't do that with free reeds. So some "borrowed" music is suitable, some apparently similar music isn't. Depends which instrument influenced the music.

 

My attitide is that if I find material I like (a melody, a chord progression, a rhythmic motif), wherever it comes from, I'll try it on the concertina. If it works, it becomes part of my personal repertoire on my personal concertina.

 

Basic tenet: the concertina as such, and the Crane duet in particular, is a young instrument, and was intended to play music that was already there, or which might yet be written. Do it!

 

Cheers,

John

 

Basic tenet: if you can't play something it's to because you aren't doing it right.

 

Hence the original question.

 

(Handel is good on the concertina; unlike Bach he seems to mostly avoid really deep bass notes.)

[JimLucas]

(Handel is good on the concertina; unlike Bach he seems to mostly avoid really deep bass notes.)

Are you restricting yourself to stuff they wrote for keyboard?

 

Bach (and other baroque composers) wrote some wonderful stuff for violin, flute, and various other instruments and ensembles, which can be played on various concertinas, though I suppose the individual treble parts won't make extensive use of a duet's left hand. I also thought JS Bach wrote some pieces for violin and viola (not to be confused with viola da gamba; I'm not sure what the range of that instrument is), which should be a nice challenge for an accomplished duet player (note that I'm not volunteering myself), but a quick internet search didn't find them, so maybe what I remember seeing were transcriptions of pieces originally for other instruments? A number of other classical composers did write for that combination, though, and Devienne apparently wrote some duos for flute and viola, which therefore would have the upper part (flute) entirely in the right hand.

 

On the other hand, how much of Bach's keyboard music went below the low C of the cello? Maybe you just need an 80-button Maccann. They normally go down to the cello's low C in the left hand and the violin's low G in the right.

[Dirge]

(Handel is good on the concertina; unlike Bach he seems to mostly avoid really deep bass notes.)

Are you restricting yourself to stuff they wrote for keyboard?

 

 

 

Yes, not interested in facile fiddle music etc; throws away the main hold a concertina has over such things; the ability to play fat juicy chords at will. One note at a time is not the way to get the best out of a squeezebox.

[LangoLee]

Yes, not interested in facile fiddle music etc; throws away the main hold a concertina has over such things; the ability to play fat juicy chords at will. One note at a time is not the way to get the best out of a squeezebox.

 

Hundreds of Irish-style players would disagree with that statement. Surely the problem with chordal playing on the concertina is that the more notes are sounded at once, the thicker, and possibly more sluggish, the sound (concertina reeds arguably seem more subject to this effect than accordion ones). It is like the shift from a lithe, acrobatic instrument such as a violin or flute, to the denser texture of a small organ or harmonium. The latter sound is more likely to evoke a late 19th-century church than a dancefloor or rock venue. Just as one man's 'facile' may be another man's 'exciting' or 'animated', so one man's 'juicy' chords may sound 'muddy' or congested to others.

Edited October 11, 2009 by LangoLee

[Marien]

Dirge

 

A concertina sound is quite dry. Only one voice is squeeking. In a session it can't compete with a double voiced melodeon or accordion. Somehow (okay we already had that and we hate to admit) a double tongued accordeon has a fatter and better sound for the rocky bits of music.

 

I was thinking about using a double notes, pressing as many C buttons on the thing when you want to play one C, at beats or syncopics. Your MacCann may have quite a range where you can press the same note on the right and the left hand, or even with octave notes, so you may have 4 notes swinging in stead of one and it may bring add at least fat to the music (especially when it is not perfectly in concert pitch). I think lower notes add more depth than higher ones. Maybe also playing fifths with the note (add G's to those C's) could help, but I wouldn't try to make full chords with a lot of additional notes in rock and roll music.

 

Another thing I have been thinking of is to connect the concertina (element or mike) to a wow wow pedal, a booster or a sound effect studio and check what can come out... For rock and roll you could certainly use a midi concertina.

 

Hmmm, just some ideas, checking out the part without the hardware now...

 

Marien

 

...it always lacks that 'electric' feel (as in live not necessarily the guitar), but I don't like to admit failure here; is anyone ahead of me and willing to offer some tips?

[J Werner]

Dirge

 

A concertina sound is quite dry. Only one voice is squeeking. In a session it can't compete with a double voiced melodeon or accordion. Somehow (okay we already had that and we hate to admit) a double tongued accordeon has a fatter and better sound for the rocky bits of music.

 

I was thinking about using a double notes, pressing as many C buttons on the thing when you want to play one C, at beats or syncopics. Your MacCann may have quite a range where you can press the same note on the right and the left hand, or even with octave notes, so you may have 4 notes swinging in stead of one and it may bring add at least fat to the music (especially when it is not perfectly in concert pitch). I think lower notes add more depth than higher ones. Maybe also playing fifths with the note (add G's to those C's) could help, but I wouldn't try to make full chords with a lot of additional notes in rock and roll music.

 

Another thing I have been thinking of is to connect the concertina (element or mike) to a wow wow pedal, a booster or a sound effect studio and check what can come out... For rock and roll you could certainly use a midi concertina.

 

Hmmm, just some ideas, checking out the part without the hardware now...

 

Marien

 

...it always lacks that 'electric' feel (as in live not necessarily the guitar), but I don't like to admit failure here; is anyone ahead of me and willing to offer some tips?

 

Yes this is a good point on making chords: thirds are not cool. If playing with a rock band, just emphasize the base and fifths. Reserve the third for times when you need to soften/cheese things up a bit. Playing guitar, in straight-up rock many of the chords are played pentatonic. We call them "power chords."

[Dirge]

Dirge

 

A concertina sound is quite dry. Only one voice is squeeking. In a session it can't compete with a double voiced melodeon or accordion. Somehow (okay we already had that and we hate to admit) a double tongued accordeon has a fatter and better sound for the rocky bits of music.

 

I was thinking about using a double notes, pressing as many C buttons on the thing when you want to play one C, at beats or syncopics. Your MacCann may have quite a range where you can press the same note on the right and the left hand, or even with octave notes, so you may have 4 notes swinging in stead of one and it may bring add at least fat to the music (especially when it is not perfectly in concert pitch). I think lower notes add more depth than higher ones. Maybe also playing fifths with the note (add G's to those C's) could help, but I wouldn't try to make full chords with a lot of additional notes in rock and roll music.

 

Another thing I have been thinking of is to connect the concertina (element or mike) to a wow wow pedal, a booster or a sound effect studio and check what can come out... For rock and roll you could certainly use a midi concertina.

 

Hmmm, just some ideas, checking out the part without the hardware now...

 

Marien

 

...it always lacks that 'electric' feel (as in live not necessarily the guitar), but I don't like to admit failure here; is anyone ahead of me and willing to offer some tips?

 

Yes this is a good point on making chords: thirds are not cool. If playing with a rock band, just emphasize the base and fifths. Reserve the third for times when you need to soften/cheese things up a bit. Playing guitar, in straight-up rock many of the chords are played pentatonic. We call them "power chords."

 

Didn't realise that. Thank you both; I shall have an experiment.

 

And Marien; I was playing an 81 Maccan midi concertina this summer; great fun and a lot cheaper than the genuine article, I was very at home with it very quickly, but I only had enough spondulix for one instrument and the boring but certain 81 Aeola won. (I haven't actually got it yet) When the next windfall happens by I shall have another look.

[m3838]

Concertina is exceptionally difficult instrument to sound well. Much more so than violin. It doesn't seem to have the richness of tone. It can't be played sluggishly. The moment you stop concentrating and begin to drift - the sound flops and begins to drift. The secret of why concertina is not good there and here is mostly in the players. When listening to Youtuve examples of concertina playing, it is striking of how often sound is off beat, how mushy the chords are etc. Accordion/bandoneon standard is wa-ay beyond anything a concertina player is capable of so far. Rochelle/Jackie is probably going to change this in few years.

[Rod]

Concertina is exceptionally difficult instrument to sound well. Much more so than violin. It doesn't seem to have the richness of tone. It can't be played sluggishly. The moment you stop concentrating and begin to drift - the sound flops and begins to drift. The secret of why concertina is not good there and here is mostly in the players. When listening to Youtuve examples of concertina playing, it is striking of how often sound is off beat, how mushy the chords are etc. Accordion/bandoneon standard is wa-ay beyond anything a concertina player is capable of so far. Rochelle/Jackie is probably going to change this in few years.

 

Perhaps we pay too much attention to nifty finger work and not sufficient attention to our wrists, arms, shoulders and the all-important bellows control, which provides the heart and soul of the music ? Violinists and many other instrumentalists and singers enhance their music with vibrato. Concertina players seem to turn their backs on tremolo with predictable results. I wonder why ? It is just one of a number of available bellows effects. Easy enough to apply on a Concertina. I reckon that vibrato contributes immensely to what you refer to as the violin's (and umpteen other instrument's) 'richness of tone'. Tremolo is as valuable as vibrato but both must of course be employed with appropriate discression.

[Rod]

Concertina is exceptionally difficult instrument to sound well. Much more so than violin. It doesn't seem to have the richness of tone. It can't be played sluggishly. The moment you stop concentrating and begin to drift - the sound flops and begins to drift. The secret of why concertina is not good there and here is mostly in the players. When listening to Youtuve examples of concertina playing, it is striking of how often sound is off beat, how mushy the chords are etc. Accordion/bandoneon standard is wa-ay beyond anything a concertina player is capable of so far. Rochelle/Jackie is probably going to change this in few years.

 

Perhaps we pay too much attention to nifty finger work and not sufficient attention to our wrists, arms, shoulders and the all-important bellows control, which provides the heart and soul of the music ? Violinists and many other instrumentalists and singers enhance their music with vibrato. Concertina players seem to turn their backs on tremolo with predictable results. I wonder why ? It is just one of a number of available bellows effects. Easy enough to apply on a Concertina. I reckon that vibrato contributes immensely to what you refer to as the violin's (and umpteen other instrument's) 'richness of tone'. Tremolo is as valuable as vibrato but both must of course be employed with appropriate discression.

 

Or even 'Discretion' !!!