kevin toner
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Posts posted by kevin toner
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Great thread and contributions sourced, agreed. So, Shelly, what's the actual lowest note on your TED then?
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5. ...in my case, if too much demand put on the aforementioned interdependency weakness of the 3rd finger at high tempo arpeggiated chordings;
6. Revisit music score and discover or search for the intention of the writers if it’s there and worthwhile. The value of notes can be over/under-estimated during familiarisation/s especially if a flurry of notes are involved as in piano scores...
at No5: I felt that it was merely my 3rd fingers that had a slight degree of interdependence [not feeling fully independent and not as quickly acting in independence whilst one or more other buttons are depressed]. All other fingers are conversely excellent in their independences!
My 3rds are the only fingers that produce a strain when operating independently in independence exercises. I feel that they're perhaps intrinsically linked to [or dependent to a degree on] the pinkies, although I may be wrong and that they're tied by perhaps tighter ligaments - Does anyone have the same thing?
This might be something that can be gradually soothed albeit I'm very sceptical as it hasn't ironed-out already! If it does then I'd definitely refinger some arpeggiated chords.
at No6: when I say over/under-estimated value, I may have given the wrong impression, of defaulting on crotchet note lengths. What I basically meant was 'knowing when to release the note from depression' i.e. in terms of what the 'stacatto to legato' articulations are of the phrasing [ie articulation/dynamics/etc. meaning of phrasing].
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As mentioned previously on another thread/forum, I’ve not yet got round to using recording as a means of refining practise, but I do hope to produce clear sound recordings very shortly as I quickly settle into a more comfortable method of playing.
I’ve meanwhile stumbled on additional revelations on technique in tandem with revisiting the sheet music rather than lazily by memory. This is keeping me going although I still anticipate occasional recordings becoming a form of practise diagnosis too, soon!
Since my last post of ‘Memories of You’ on the music discussion forum, I feel like I’ve had 50 or so pivotal self-learned lessons. Even as I speak I am constantly assessing everything I’m doing until I am entirely comfortable. I anticipate great progress on ‘Winter Wonderland’ and look forward to breaking freshly into each of the many alluring 1930s jazz standards and the likes.
This is a very satisfying, fairly transitional, stage to be at in my development. Looking forward to much progress!
My advocacy of thumbs through has now been reinforced with yet another unusual advocacy [ie for me] for hand straps as well. I would never in my wildest dreams have thought I’d be approaching the technique of my Granddad due to the constrictions involved. How on earth am I now playing bass notes fluently on T-T with thumbs fully through and hands tightened/constricted with straps? Beats me!
I’m now becoming comfortable with all of “MoY” on the Allegro side of Moderato, since making these decisions to strap up, although now getting used to a few fingering changes including one reverted change having tried out an arpeggiated chord placement change to no avail over the last 2 months – the problem with the latter being the ‘weak interdependency of the 3rd finger on lowest notes’ despite hand comfort.
Here’s a list of recent findings as I develop.
1. Listening &/or recalling Granddad playing and discussing;
2. Thumbs fully through straps
3. Hand straps on (starting loose and working towards tighter as dexterity improves – I’ve still got a few notches before I reach the tightness Granddad was at – the mark on the straps are still there and I’m glad I decided to get them back on the concertina): the obvious advantage is increased control but greater discovery/cognisance of the bellows...;
4. Lower shoulders at difficult passages to release stiffness and promote the following:
5. use/experiment with hand positioning before scrunching up shoulders and using unnecessary upper arm work. Vertical & horizontal rotation of the wrist, and door handle action turning from forearm too: can all unlock difficulties of reach. As mentioned above, getting the right leverage can sometimes beat comfortable hand configurations e.g. in my case, if too much demand put on the aforementioned interdependency weakness of the 3rd finger at high tempo arpeggiated chordings;
6. Revisit music score and discover or search for the intention of the writers if it’s there and worthwhile. The value of notes can be over/under-estimated during familiarisation/s especially if a flurry of notes are involved as in piano scores.
Also, amazing progress going on in the Roberton scores in particular! Mairi’s Wedding; Come Along; Westering Home; Air Falalalo; Mingulay Boat Song.
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In my experience, so far, Mingulay Boat Song and Air Falalalo are two Piano scores by Hugh S Roberton that's bass clef is very independent from [and not slavish to] the treble clef. In fact I'd go as far to say that Roberton reverses the roles of the clefs, on these 2, so that it is more the treble that is vamping the bass or harmonising the melody rather than vice versa. "MBS" is fully reachable on T-T. Those lines which are not reachable on your TED [which sounds like another name for what I've got (a T-T typically down to tenor C)] then you can use the computer program highlighted by Jim and Geoff to help bring good bass lines up to your range. It's something I might consider dabbling with myself later down the line if/when necessary!
I'm interested at the moment on the technique side with regard to playing both clefs of a piano score. I will be posting on my progress in a moment on a new thread here, as so far I've been using the general discussion forums to discuss such. 'Teaching and Learning' does seem to be the more appropriate place!
However, if I come across more good bass lines during my piano score learnings I'll post back to you here on this thread, but again I suspect they'll not be common. Perhaps look out for choral-master scores like Roberton's as there may be a greater inclination to lead melodies in the bass clef!
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I attempted to play the harmony on the treble clef stave for Londonderry Air at my Granddad's cremation in 2003 in Dec 2002 although diffidently during the arrivals period at the crematorium. A relative admitted to me after the full service that when he was approaching he 'thought he was hearing' Danny play. He forgot for a moment that it might have been myself playing. Others also commented on how beautiful it was to hear the sound.
Even earlier I heard something perhaps more affecting than the usual, i.e. Aisling Gheal! There's many more of these slow airs (Fonn Mall in gaelic) and laments, which'd undoubtedly be as deeply affecting. Tony MacMahon's version is on Spotify. I bought this CD in the mid 1990s to hear Noel Hill playing, but have never forgotten any of it despite not listening for years, till now! Aisling Gheal is the last track on it, which is fully by McMahon on accordion with no Hill accompaniment. Without all the session work earlier on the album, I don't know if I'd've warmed to it cold so easily. Even now as I play it on spotify as I write (song Vs loud concreting works/strange thumps) I think I am tapping into the same emotion felt when first heard. However, is this lament style really concertina territory? It would be interesting to hear any comments.
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I would concur with Randy. After reading this I gave it a shot and found that was able to swing it around the room for nice tonal effects. It also felt comfortable - you can almost rotate all the way to upside-down to find the best/different support strategy for particular chords/playing. However, I have to sit rather than stand to play the current complex score that I'm trying to accomplish/learn. I definitely look forward to standing more depending on the demand of the tune. Again, it's incredibly liberating indeed esp. for ad-lib playing-around. Thanks, Randy - it feels right to me!
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Ah yes, thanks Leo .... what a treat .... 39 mins of Mícheál ó Raghallaigh!
Cheers,
Dick
Hi Dick
Yeah, there are a couple of hidden gems in there. A couple of C.net members I didn't catch that were already posted in another thread, and Simon Thourmire in a couple of untitled links too (Hint hint, the last three).
Thanks
Leo
The set by Simon et al are definitely hidden gems as well, absolutely and tremendously infectious! And If I may say, particularly in respect of the middle one, takes me back to the wonderful backing music of Harold Lloyd (which I enjoyed back in the 1980s) utilising concertina as the choice of high pitched swing instrument. Excellent stuff indeed! This ensemble would be made for life if Backing such the clown silents; or should I say new ones if "The Artist's" success s anything to go by, which I've yet to see. [This subject of re-generating prewar tendencies also reminds one of that recently intriguing - but grotesque - concertina animation that was posted in "concertina on an acid trip"here - not for the faint hearted, but it proves that it's not just trombone that has to do the 'silly' stuff...]
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Something that will be exacerbating the confused sound will be other conscious defaults on the memorised playing. Thanks Geoff for making the earlier point.
I’ve spotted another unconscious error I’d got into playing before embarking on a new recording regime – there may be more though that will be spotted and scheduled after a proper recording review! Hence there is another way to spot default beforehand; and it’s been discussed on the forum previously.
This is about revisiting notation to correct any defaulting that may have developed due to fingers wanting to do what’s most comfortable to them.
The example that I cite here, which occurs thrice, is unsurprisingly at e.g. “...Just re-call...” , i.e. unsurprising because of the fingering challenge not because of the pun on recalling your steps.
I have the following ad-lib remark on how I’ve dealt with distraction here and in the past. Apologies if it doesn’t make sense.
[after rectifying/rememorizing this over 10 minutes or so, when I attempted to play it in context from the beginning of the stave I got one of these terrible thumps when I reached that bar, which reminded me of similar throws I used to get during the learning on my treble-only days circa from 2007/8 when I realised that I should recall any bars that were wrong – after trying to correct in this manner and upon my suspicion of the throws I deliberately didn’t play the bar during a context run of playing only to find the sound of a flurry of car horn beeps (probably the same distance as the aforementioned frog croaks) yet quietness up to that point. Ever since then I’ve discovered that throwing has been indeed part of the game – it’s coincidental though, surely? Endearingly, I felt I was getting my own back recently when I decided to brave learning and adding the bass/treble playing to the refrain of this song (having realised such could be done and having accomplished it first in the chorus and its mid-bridge after mid 2011) i.e. when the first few bars lyrically seemed to be carrying me through the difficult memorizing/throwing stage or process. For example within the first few bars are questions/remarks like: [right at the beginning] “Why can’t I for-get like I should?...”, which when broken down for memorizing can easily be construed as “Why can’t I for-get? like I should!...”; shortly after at “...can’t keep you off my mind-” the last word “mind” is sustained long for 2 semibreves, meaning it sound like “...can’t keep you off my my!!” i.e. until the end of the long note. I’ve actually collated well around some hundred of these types of lyrical quips since focussing on learning music, which wouldn’t have been the case if I decided not to sing along with the playing to help with the distractions – I’m not a singer by nature, so I’m over the moon I was steered into this in a way; and I might have even found a potentially good voice along the way. I would have honestly given up trying to learn the refrain (bass/treble) due to distraction if it weren’t for these lyrical pit-stops. I might have also been too disheartened to extend upon my repertoire. Thank goodness for lyricists!]
Forgive me if I take around a month to pull off a proper recording. If I'm sooner then it'll be a bonus!
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It is gratifying, for me, to see Boris Matusewitch's thumb position which is the way I've allways held my EC's . Some have said this is not a good way, placing the thumb so far into the strap but, if it was good enough for Boris then I can continue with peace of mind.
And it was gratifying for me, at the recent German Concertina Meeting, to see Dave Townsend promoting the tip-of-the-thumb-only (and don't neglect the little finger) method that I prefer. The reasons he gave were similar to mine... increased control, flexibility, and reach, particularly toward the lower notes.
But if something works for you (or for me), then there should be no great pressure to change.
Well, as they say "different folks, different strokes" Jim.
Perhaps Hand shape makes a difference... or is it just habit? I don't think I have a problem reaching the lowest notes of my Baritone/Treble but I find it a bit of a reach sometimes at the top end. This could be due to the shifted thumb strap position in comparison to my Treble. I'll add that this reach problem only happens when playing complicated chords and octaves in quick succession... but with a "thumb tips only"position I think it would be worse.
I see that Kevin Toner makes mention of his 'new' "thumbs all the way in" position for increased control... in his current post "memories of you" .
Incidentally, I use Wrist Straps on the BT combined with very loose Thumb Straps. This way I can lean back into the wrist straps to change position.
Maybe one day when we meet.. we can compare hand shapes and finger lengths.
Best regards,
Geoff.
This subject was also discussed at a recent workshop in Stirling in 2011 when I was dabbling quite well with 'thumbs-thro' already, but it's only 'till now that I realise how essential it is to do this for the tenor treble model 19A i.e. esp. for piano arrangements. I've recently been sliding back out to thumb tip unconsciously as I've been learning refingerings low down on the key board - One must execute fully through, definitely! I think two professional players concurred with thumbs thro' at the above workshop (i.e. as reel/jigs/etc. EC players). I'm very surprised by this myself esp. for jigs/reels, which put no counter pressures on the keyboard in the way that piano arrangements do. I think I understand this though as even some trad reels/jigs players could benefit for the manner in which they push the instrument - very impressive! I'm not sure it's a hand shape based problem (as I used to think) going on recent findings from myself. I concur with Geoff the a Baritone would make life easier, but exchanges the difficulty to the top end of the keyboard, which must be reached ergo why I think Geoff has favouritised a 'thumbs through' policy. Even on Tenor treble EC I would think that a thumbs through policy would benefit high note reach, so I understand where Geoff's coming from RE the Baritone treble layout
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The video also flagged up another [unconsciously played] error, i.e. an error I’d previously sorted but had forgot about in this instance.
This is at the end of the refrain – it should have a gradual quieting of smoothly slurred chords. I have instead been very clumsy here.
I did similar on Winter Wonderland at "...town!" (and/or "...down" as added in 1953 within the repeated refrain) at the end of the bridge, mid-refrain, which I'm now fully conscious of avoiding after hearing the recording.
Moral of the story:
So basically these initial recordings will help me to spot where I'm defaulting. It can be easy to stray vis-a-vis the hoards of things going on in the sheet music and if I may say again if one is literally rattled in their cage due to the aforementioned downtown troubles.
The latter for me includes a periodic thumping within the building most probably below my current practising space; and more...
Please feel free to ignore the lower part of my post. I’ve been completely brain drained trying to write it during the time of my last reply above so it probably won’t make sense. Read at your own peril! However, I thought I should get this aspect off my chest now for the record since I’ve stumbled onto the subject. Again sincere apologies!
The above thumps used to merely coincide with staff opening and shutting times for the shop below me (i.e. since mid 2011 I think, definitely not later), sometimes taking 5-10 thumps in the last hour to shut shop i.e. fairly well after the Friday/Saturday business hours. Having got to the end of my tether and by making the mistake of running in with the person shutting up the shop on 29 Feb 2012 who answered/concluded with the message: “No, I won't stop it I'm going to keep it up”, I've now inherited the thumping problem around the clock, i.e. business hours, since 1 March 2012 ergo no longer at simply opening/closing times. The thumps can be up to around 10No an hour at worst with no set pattern. It’s sometimes compounded by around 3No in the same minute. At least it’s now known that the thumps aren’t simply caused by the doors as I’d once thought. If the continuum of sound troubles over the last 10 years (here) is anything to go by, it might not stop for months/years yet. The council are assessing if the thumps can be deemed as a statutory nuisance before they can help. An officer has a good theory as to might be causing it.
It's not just the sound that can annoy; it can be the occasional burst of powerful/putrid garlic odours too, which can strike up to 5x daily anytime between 10am-11pm despite shut windows. The council asked me to keep a diary to check for patterns. Funnily it dropped from daily after this suggestion a few weeks ago, but is back up at daily rates again. I think this had been accruing since a former and neighbouring office outlet was finally morphed into a restaurant relatively recently from around 2008. I wrote a letter to the manager in mid 2011 stressing such concerns among others, but the odour problem has remained unresolved, while the occasional mechanical fan sound problems have been rectified when necessary – luckily a recent planning application to snake yet another nearby flue passed my back window from an adjacent conversion hasn’t transpired, fingers crossed – they simply grow arms and legs. The office, before becoming a restaurant, was the branch outlet, if not head-office, for a ‘friendly soc.’ that had resided in and around the block properties in different guises since the advent of such societies and even beforehand..., in fact this particular ‘friendly society’ was probably the first in Britain. [i see that almost 5 million Britons have a policy with such orgs so I won’t say anything against them despite my suspicions]. They extended this outlet/base in the 1960s up to my property by acquiring a ground floor barbershop that used to sit next to the shop below... They’d incidentally owned my flat presumably up to the late 1990s* i.e. as offices before changing hands to the family property company that I’d rented from in 2001 before buying the flat in 2006. That same company appears to have been behind the other conversions as well.
The corner office was converted 3 decades later for ‘light food and drink’ use (with corner-shop below) during the earlier ‘00s albeit into a simple deli-bar before becoming a fully fledged garlic incinerator – only kidding – from 2008 onward. I think the root of my troubles might emanate from sharing the enclosed lightwell area to the rear, which may have affected my senses over time due to extraction fume leakage – as the smell appears to quickly die away after I go out into the street to detect where it’s coming from! The other offices above the restaurant appear to have been vacated over the last couple of years or so despite the window posters saying that a rather successful travel agent resides there and despite the emergent maintenance works to the building over the last fortnight. I’m rather confused that the old friendly soc. still has their address here if Googled for! More alarmingly, I’ve been the only one breathing this all in at the back since the offices have been vacated!
[Furthermore, the lightwell is how I get my fresh air i.e. when chainsmoking staff command the front of the building. The most putrid instigators could sometimes get through shut windows rendering it almost similar to the garlic bursts, but nowhere in the same league. That said, I’ve learnt my lesson regarding keeping the windows shut to the front – it’s helped to dispel the putridity coming from the smokers – only trying to guess when they’ll gather can be difficult as there are 3 shops to worry about. During applying the trick of keeping the front windows shut during working hours, I found myself having to get up earlier and earlier. This was to the point that I had to get up on Sunday morning at between 6-7am to shut windows for one of the most putrid from bunch who was arriving earlier and earlier. That shop used to open at noon on Sunday. Also, the shop next to this has followed suit - sharing the same business activity - and therefore also opening much earlier than normal, meaning longer smoking hours to shut out. That wasn’t the only difficulty in applying the ‘close window trick’ – a restaurant worker then started to come round the corner and smoke here too after the shops had shut and believe me I smelled it before seeing it – very putrid indeed. Fortunately I don’t smell the same level of putridity (smoke generally smells normal again) since keeping the front windows generally shut, but at night I can sometimes get bad bursts/reminders from folk passing by I guess if windows are open. Not being a smoker I wouldn’t know if these were coming from an herbal brand as they weren’t normal, a receptionist from the council’s pest/noise control candidly suggested they’re bad quality fags, but I’d now ask why were they so popular with the shops/restaurant – I am at a loss and think that I’m simply sensitive to something that might be affecting me at a micro/spore level; and I think it’s the restaurant – although I may be wrong? I’m also a regular at a public library that has an open plan restaurant, where I sometimes smell a similar dirty extract smell to that which you’d occasionally find lingering around some restaurant areas in the city. IN fact I’m off there now to catch up on work.]
Needless to say the restaurant apparatus started to get earlier and earlier too after my trick of opening the back windows after shop opening times to substitute the front window air – Funnily, I erringly telephoned them recently to ask “why so early on this occasion?” and went through them like a ton of feathers not knowing that the clocks had gone back, but just as of yesterday I had to shut windows as at 9.45am, albeit they’re licensed to open at 11am. I find this air quality literally unbearable at times. I’m also confused as, initially, I could keep my back windows open all day long even during restaurant activity for around 2 weeks coincidentally after telling their manager of my success (in combating the smokers’ intrusions) to the front of the flat in mid around 2011. I’m sure it was a coincidence that it was such a short-lived option.
Finally, I’ll be publishing a Google time-line calendar/diary of the ongoing thumping and bursts of garlic when they occur and how they’ve occurred since March ‘12. Hopefully the council will be able to act upon this, but I’m not holding my breath. I’m of course hoping that it all stops before I get round to uploading the calendars as I would prefer not to – my main reasoning for having to use Google calendar for this is for universality since the council are still using CSV files for outlook, which does not recognise ICS file windows calendars!
Apologies for elaborating on "distraction", but I'm afraid it's one of the components! I wonder though where I'd be now if I’d instead been lured to the countryside or to a house with a garden. Despite the drawback it’s a wonderful flat and privilege to be in. Most of the above problems wouldn’t of course annoy anyone else, merely someone trying to accomplish something special on EC or ergo anything complex. Perhaps the best artists etc. divert madness through translating it into song – try the mad mix of ‘I’m going slightly mad’ or the likes; or by growing mad hairdos; or even by pretending they’re deaf if they happened to be the greatest musician who ever walked the earth. No I’m not insinuating that Beethoven was pretending, but it makes you wonder what is necessary for such a level of greatness, nor would I be insinuating that I’m aiming for such, but again just trying to achieve something special on concertina!
[*Oh, my asterisk: you might see on the video sneaking to the left of the screen, that there’s some rather nice glass shelving within a recess. This is 2Metres cu of built in recess (1 of 4, 1 per flat) that I believe were former safes that were too big to haul out during the conversion to flats in 2000.]
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Ah ! Distraction, yes I was thinking about that whilst I laid in bed last night listening to the Frogs croaking in a pond about 200 metres away... it was the only sound other than the occasional Owl hooting. No distractions here except too much work to do.
I grew up in London but it has been 35 years since I have lived anywhere enven remotely Suburban... so I understand and feel very lucky not to have noise and light polution... but it is a very long walk to the Pub!
Thanks Geoff, I've got a comment written about it with regards to my urban example, coming up.
My walk to the nearest pub was simply across the road before going on fire to make way for such aforementioned mega-developments around the block. Things might settle ironically after the recession! I'm within a block's distance to the next couple more nearest of course. Funnily the replacement pub relocated 1 block in a direct alignment with its past location, but faces east instead of west. I'm fairly surrounded by these Karaoke havens, but I could go on and on about what has been even much louder than these over the years - i.e. in terms of amplified music in the vicinity, which I'd rather forget about and hope for the best. It's okay of course if you're not a resident trying to learn piano arrangements on EC!
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Are you planing to sing the song too Kevin ?
I found the sound a little confusing and not being that familiar with the song I had to find a sung version to compare.
As I don't (should not be allowed to) sing I would be looking for a "less is more" setting for myself to play.
I await your finished version with anticipation.
All the best,
Geoff.
Yes I'm planning to sing as I've almost found the voice. I may have to layer singing with some songs, time will tell.
Yes the sound is confused due to the high degree of slurred (joined-up) chording and so on coupled with zero sound quality. I will try to record and upload clearer sound files so that you can decide whether or not such score arrangements are as suitable for concertina as they are for piano. Again, perhaps such arrangements can only be appreciated in a room with good acoustics. I will work on the recording/sound quality straight away so that there is a better indication.
I was also writing a follow up to my original post regarding some of this etc., which will follow in a moment. Alas, I'll also be elaborating on that component called "distraction", but it's something I have to get off my chest!
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[Apologies: for letting 21 March 2012 pass without an update on my Winter Wonderland progress. I’ll be fully resuming from 21 June 2012 in line with the southern Hemisphere winter spirit/spell!]
I’ve videoed myself playing what I’ve learned of “Memories of you” so far, which is now at a ‘ready to implement’ or ‘progressing forward’ stage. Link is
.It’s nowhere near ready to go as yet. I’ve basically begun to accept that I must adjust to putting the thumbs fully through the straps to gain much greater control. A small extent of re-fingering is necessary, a small price to play for gaining the necessary control.
Thumbs fully through has to be a major principle from now on! There’s one occasion though on MOY when I have to pull out at the arpeggiated mixed double-chord at the D.C., which is a good sign
If you do reach the last [6-7th] minute you might hear me more relaxed. It’s of course been very nerve wracking with the crosstown traffic and construction etc. competing for my attention... and as I’m yet a recording novice. Must persevere with the former, but I suspect if I confront the latter it will switch my focus towards myself rather than the external forces. Singing helped in the same way, but is in itself also a distraction despite offering a head start...
Despite the deterioration of sound from the compressed file, it’s good to hear from the video what needs done e.g. tightening up on general tempo. I’m becoming relatively comfortable with the occasionally stipulated tempo variations where necessary.
I will be able to give more attention to phrasing stipulations in a better sound recording situation. My accented notes; loud and quiet passages etc won’t come through in the videos i.e. yet. Nor can such be easily heard or appreciated when there’s a never-ending continuum of distraction. This doesn’t affect “Winter Wonderland” to anything near the same degree as “Memories of You” as the former doesn’t involve anything much more than simply the notation, which is occasionally slurred and likewise infrequently glissed. MP3s might reveal all later depending on the sound quality. It might otherwise be something that can only be appreciated live. Time will tell!
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I also agree that at times the sheet music arrangements have "mistakes" or chords that sound horrible on a concertina and need to be modified for sound and playability. However, my "self arrangement" system only works easily for me when a piece is in a key that I am familiar with.
Geoff.
Thanks Geoff for your answers and further comments. I myself are familiar with all of the stipulated keys in my repertoire, which is basically any key signature up to and including 4 flats and sharps. I will find it interesting to approach something with 5 - or greater - flats or sharps outside my current repetoire. In fact, looking very much forward to a number of such scores.
ps I said earlier that I'd have to naturalise a Bflat at the bridge glissandos. I forgot to mention that I'd also have to sharpen the F natural on these glissandos too - it completely escaped my mind as my interpretation brain wasn't working. Your earlier post definitely coincided with me getting my interpretation thinking cap on - the score doesn't spell out the key change to G at the bridge so you have to bear it in mind when you're interpreting glissandos, thanks again
pps I'm still working on the two key changed glissandos at the bridge, i.e. with a now slightly greater re-memorization involved as above. These are around one octave each, as I've had to raise the bass clef an octave here, so they'll not be too much of a problem through time. However, at the very last glissando of the first-played refrain, which is open ended, I've decided to interpret this going down 2 octaves i.e. from Aflat(3) down to my baritone Bflat. You'll hear on the earlier recording that I'd cut this one way too short. If I manage to pull this latter 2-octave range gliss off within the moderato tempo then I'll have succeeded in my objectives for the piece.
ppps RE self-arrangement - On chords, I occasionally raise a note that's fallen outside my range into the body of the chord. This doesn't stray much at all and sounds as intended/written - basically the lowest note of a chord sometimes has to become the 2nd or 3rd lowest note in the chord; and that's how I get away with using the Tenor-Treble for such scores. WW doesn't have an example of this as all chorded notes are reachable. However, I'm finding this is very necessary for several piano scores. I'll point these out when I get round to recording any of them later. An example where I may actually need to augment a piano score shortly is twice (at two bars) at the lyric "boys" (ie at the last line of the repeatable chorus to "Mingulay Boat Song" whereby Roberton has ghosted/sub-divided the treble chording (at these particular bars) making them sound perhaps too bare on concertina - if my instrument was in better condition I might think otherwise...
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Sparky-ling white! Much enjoyed.... now how much of it will work on a 20 button...........
Actually, the voice stave will be doable I'd think - and worthwhile. The voice stave treble notes here are all within one octave from Eflat(3) to Eflat(4). [ps there's a half note drop to D(3) natural at the bridge key change - so it's marginally beyond the one octave!] It would be good to add the voice stave on top of my finished copy - on its way shortly - or on top of what I've done so far.
I'm tearing away at the problem glissandos - almost there! I'm also playing this number smoother now especially the more I focus on the remaining problems.
Thanks Kautilya. [ps thanks also to Geoff Crabb for his kind comment on the Buy & Sell Forum today]
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This Model 9A Baritone is exactly half the price of my risen ended Model 19 Tenor-Treble according to the 1931 Wheatstone pricelist, i.e. at £14 & £28 respectively.
At my stage of development, instead of the 9A, I would need the Model 16 Baritone-Treble at £33 as a second primary instrument. If only they were still those prices eh!
I've still got a lot to achieve on my Model 19, but the 16 will definitely be a worthwhile extension of this endeavour, not the 9A I'm afraid. However, the 9A will undoubtedly be a great choice for an ear player whether starting out or advanced. I myself might hanker for one of these further down the line - I'm not sure!
[My other goal - where I'd rather play not interpret/re-interpret bass clefs ie on the majority of piano scores - is to simply have a bass EC. Once accomplished, I would be trying to layer/record such playing along with a [mixed-in] separately recorded treble-clef part, which would necessitate a TT above that of either a BT/Baritone or plain Treble - apologies for the irrelevance of this point on your post, just keeping track of the 2 instruments I'd actually need next or want first!]
Hope you do well from your enquiry
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...On the contrary, I did seem to decipher the following error as mentioned on an earlier post, where McHugh appears to have conceitedly erred on “On the Sunny Side of the Street” , [a similarly LTM published song albeit undoubtedly legendarily drafted by McHugh himself as opposed to the publisher] at “crossed” (i.e. at the bridge on the middle part of the chorus) whereby an A should be substituted with a B. Every print I’ve ever seen of the sheet music has the awkward B instead of the A!...
I've since and soon discovered that when playing the bass clef double octave C#, the treble A sounds rather nice and okay, albeit replacing the treble A with a B, again, mitigates the clash when playing merely the treble clef. The treble B appears to work in both configurations, whereas the A will only work if you add the Bass C#.
I mentioned previously on the other aforementioned post that this was the only instance of such a clash in all of my experience of chording as read from the treble clef, so therefore I think I still have a pretty pertinent point in respect of the A to B message. Can't wait to play the bass clef in context later in another batch of practising, I might find I prefer the A at the end of the day - time will tell! The image of the chord is here on my photo album of notation curiosities.
I've just had another look at this chord notation [from "On the Sunny Side of the Street"] and I'm afraid I'm going to have to wait for a baritone-treble for this particular song - so it'll be a while before I'll be recalling this one. Look at the dips or swooping down on the bass clef after "rover" & "over", which swoops down to G(2) i.e. the very lowest note on a BT EC Wheatstone Aeola! I won't be wasting any energy on the TT for this song - no way. Here's the link again if you'd missed it earlier: link
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Here is my 1912 56key Aeola [passed to me from Granddad - Danny - in 2004] and one of Granddad's extras - a circa 1896 60key New Model[purchased 2nd hand for £5 sometime in the past, and gifted to another family member who gave up trying to learn it; and so it was the one I started off on] , i.e. a Wheatstone and Lachenal respectively.
I've not had luck with my image hosting - so I've created a specific public gallery where you can see all 7 images [ps +4 more] here.
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Great Granddad Michael Ton[n]er as previously mentioned. About 10-15 years between these images. Granddad Daniel Toner was the youngest in the family and has not been born yet in the photo, but Francis his older brother is on the far right, known in Australia as "the Concertina Wizard" - tapes may be uploaded along with Danny material soon; the "girl with the amazing voice" - Maggie [alias Peggy] Toner is there in between the Tina players.
All my images were corrupted so I've made a gallery specifically for concertina related items. These two old images can therefore be seen here.
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For those that might be inspired by such – and before I crack on with the numbers and the stories/curiosities behind them – there’s yet more inspiration that I can offer especially to those giving such piano scores second-thoughts. I should get this off my chest anyway!
Believe me, if I can do it, anyone can!
The one thing you don’t do (like me) is reside in the downtown. I can give you literally 101 ways how this hinders, but I won’t bore. I’ve already mentioned a couple of sound hindrances, which I don’t think were attributable to wax in my ear. A couple of ongoing official ones are still to be resolved - what's new I ask!
Imagine when all hell breaks loose in the natural kingdom during Macbeth. That’s what you’ve got if you try to learn/practise in the downtown. Mix that with the occasional eerie silences and you’ve got downtown on a platter, compare John Cusack’s experiences of “Room 1408”.
I’ll bore you with one curious incidental of the mechanised world that gives the natural world a run for its money. Unusually, since becoming redundant from permanent-style architectural employment over the downturn/recession, as you’d expect since late 2008, there’s been conversely and fascinatingly a localised construction boom on my side of the block and large swaths all around within a stone throw of this, yet there’s nothing else outwith 1.5 blocks or more across the rest of the downtown for at least a mile, as you’d not expect.
I’m talking since 2008/09 right around me there’s now been three post-war office blocks either razed for redevelopment or given substantial surgery. Nestled amongst these there have been A - sudden decisions to actually build on derelict or vacant plots after neglect during the boom years; and B - forced redevelopment upon some of the successfully occupied historic buildings that were hitherto thriving with various kinds of hospitality land uses during the recession. In fact the latter was one of the very few CPOs undertaken nationally. The demolition and construction sectors have never had it so good in this neck of the woods since the early-mid 1960s!
Yet something even stranger is happening between [silent] periods of construction from within 2 blocks' distance around me. Since 2009 some owners have been stubbornly happy to let their piercing alarms sound off over unbearably long periods during these inactive phases - fingers crossed that’s been a thing of the past, but somehow I doubt it... I (and the council should) have a record of these absurdities.
I won’t bore you stiff with my traffic noise problems, but must share a couple of conventions, which funnily sometimes annoys yet other times doesn’t. 1) I’ll never have to walk to any downtown taxi rank as there's a favoured hackney route passes 0.5 blocks away – recently, when I was going to a cousin’s birthday party, I simply went to that street; shut my eyes; put my hand out; and along came a taxi. [if I try to practice after 9pm, it becomes a battle with Revs – when I look to see where the constant revs are coming from I see a never-ending convoy of Hackneys, chronically relieved by an occasional but controlled red light]. So yes, I rarely play when it’s more often quite at night as a taxi convoy will be sure to ensue [i.e. be noticed]. One more thing on Revs Vs peace and tranquillity: boy-racers naturally use the downtown to show off, which I don’t mind. However, what is more annoying is when you see a little car with 6” exhausts lurking about and invariably mixing revs with muffled/bassy noises from inside the car. One of the most hilarious moments recently was when I looked one Saturday? morning to try and find/source a rather disturbing revs noise [after bearing it for around 20mins] only to see a traffic warden heckling a young driver in a Fiat Uno [or perhaps smaller FIAT]. As he drove off I then got a glimpse of the exhaust/s – 12” at least!! Ha ha ha; why not just buy a Ferrari for goodness sake?
So if I’ve been slow in learning during this period of available time on my hands, you’ll know why: A - being thrown off track; and to boot B - having to de-memorise all my treble-clef-alone endeavours, i.e. about 5 years worth up to mid 2011.
Again, if I can do it, i.e. overcome difficulty, then anyone can! On with the show as they say! If I weren’t focussing on such 1930s standards etc. then I might have had an easier time.
Remember, this lineage of music was broken or practically put to bed abruptly eight decades ago without recall. I say let’s have a product recall, a “total recall” or we’ll have to wait on Scotty beaming us down to it centuries later!
ps some risque, but apologies for the diversion off track:-
i.e. don't ask me to complain about the regular sirens too! I might need them myself some day, and I'm not talking about the ones that come with surplus straight-jackets, or am I...? I might also not have grown out liking like the sound of these distractions just yet - too many Starsky & Hutch's to blame I'm afraid.
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...On the contrary, I did seem to decipher the following error as mentioned on an earlier post, where McHugh appears to have conceitedly erred on “On the Sunny Side of the Street” , [a similarly LTM published song albeit undoubtedly legendarily drafted by McHugh himself as opposed to the publisher] at “crossed” (i.e. at the bridge on the middle part of the chorus) whereby an A should be substituted with a B. Every print I’ve ever seen of the sheet music has the awkward B instead of the A!...
I've since and soon discovered that when playing the bass clef double octave C#, the treble A sounds rather nice and okay, albeit replacing the treble A with a B, again, mitigates the clash when playing merely the treble clef. The treble B appears to work in both configurations, whereas the A will only work if you add the Bass C#.
I mentioned previously on the other aforementioned post that this was the only instance of such a clash in all of my experience of chording as read from the treble clef, so therefore I think I still have a pretty pertinent point in respect of the A to B message. Can't wait to play the bass clef in context later in another batch of practising, I might find I prefer the A at the end of the day - time will tell! The image of the chord is here on my photo album of notation curiosities.
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Well Kevin,
for you to say "it's embarrisingly clumsy" is ok... I would suggest it is a great start and I fully appreiciate just how much work has already gone into getting this far.
For my part I am taking two approaches to this sort of playing; the first is, perhaps similar to your method, where I take a normal keyboard score and try to extract as much as I can starting with the treble clef and including some notes from the bass clef . Then a revisit to the score, after a digestion period, to see if I can extract any more from the bass clef.With the Baritone/treble my fingerings will be a little different, having the low Bb on the left etc.
The other method is to take a known melody and see what sort of arraingement I can come up with; I'm doing this mostly with Traditional (folk) tunes and have dubbed it "Trad Stride EC".. it is not really much different than following a piano score except that I'm making it up as I go along. The slightly debilitating problem with the French Traditional dance music that I get to play quite a lot, in our local band, is that most of it is in C which is a constrictive key on the English for a four finger configuration. The more complicated Hornpipes from Scotland and Northumberland are provding a better starting point for "Striding" across the keyboard.
Your video is almost clear enough to see what both hands are doing at the same time ... though it is never possible to see what is happening inside your hands, so to speak, and this will allways be a problem with videos of the English. The camera angle is perhaps as good as can be and it adds well to the overall effect.
Thanks Geoff, very kind too
I understand your points, and I think I understand your last point too regarding seeing what the hands are doing - with EC there appears to be certainly a lot of times when fingers hide behind other fingers. I don't know if you are implying this and that Duet playing doesn't engender equivalent hiding of the fingering. Certainly Anglo fingering looks like it all might be visible. Is this what you meant on your last point?
Your point on constrictiveness is spot on - this corroborates my troubles into the bridge of WW at the downward glissando, whereby the key changes from E flat to G [i'd wrongly guessed to F, meaning one more note in my glissando has to become naturalised, which won't be a problem - thanks for your post as the error might not have passed my mind later when I come to re-finger this particular glissando] and therefore puts yet another note into a constrictive middle row position. Some Hugh S Roberton pieces posed these problems for me earlier on the other hand - the way round it is to engage the pinkie where necessary. This helps to put less stress on the main fingers. If I had my Granddad's hands it might not have been an issue though (?) With regard to composing your own bass notes, I'm sure you're not alone; it's something I might acquire later the more accustomed I become to bass notation. You might hear some of my Granddad's work later (with harmonica and banjo trio accompaniment), whereby he's obviously thinking in bass terms alone. He was a great advocate for Bass playing on the Tenor Treble, albeit he was trained to read treble clef by the teacher.
Your 1st point regarding a piecemeal approach is not exactly what I'd advocate due to my experience with trying to re-finger and de-memorise the previous fingering. It is definitely more conducive for me to take the bull by the horns straight away - I dispense with the almost irrelevant lowest note of any bass double-octaves. If any runs are beyond my range and that of the Baritone, I make a conscious effort to raise them an octave i.e. if they don't conflict with the treble clef. This works I think! I’d like opinions though once examples have been uploaded.
I was going to wait to tell the forum of an incidence [on “Memories of You”] where I had to make a choice between pursuing a publisher's (Lawrence Wright Music’s?) accidental or lucky mishap (?) or go with the norm of most other interpreted reprints of the song... This lucky mishap happens to be a significant blemish (i.e. on all of the 30s Decades Series that I’ve seen), which I’ve scanned as per the link at the bottom. Luckily for me that series never cleaned up the blemish on any of its reprints. This blemish is of a note that appears at once to be either a C or a B flat. If it is construed as a plain B flat (naturally suiting the key of E flat) as per all other redrafts by other compilers (as I’ve seen from the local library) then slurring off treble B flat [i.e. at “Hea-ven” or “Time Heals” within the double refrain part of the song] would entail joining the high un-slurred (bass clef) B flat, which is the same B flat as precedes on the treble clef – meaning it has to be sustained for a further minim and therefore meaning loss of the rhythmic flow of the bass line, especially for reed instruments/organs. Had the treble clef not been so slurred it might have made a difference, i.e. to EC TT and organs but not the piano per se as the bass clef B flat minim is accented, hence a piano would be able to restore the bass flow much easier than a reed instrument. Therefore a reed instrument would be best to construe the blemish as the C and not a B flat. Furthermore on the 2nd previous bar i.e. the very first note of the double refrain at [“why” or Tho’”], and contrarily to most other edits of the sheet music, it would appear to make more mathematical sense to go with the C as opposed to the B flat anyway! So a reed player would have 2 reasons for going with C not B flat. My theory is that it was indecision either from the writer or the publisher.
I’m therefore over the moon with the blemish as I might not have been musical enough to decipher what would've been best for the song on my own account, especially at my early [stabiliser] stage of reading both clefs.
On the contrary, I did seem to decipher the following error as mentioned on an earlier post, where McHugh appears to have conceitedly erred on “On the Sunny Side of the Street” , [a similarly LTM published song albeit undoubtedly legendarily drafted by McHugh himself as opposed to the publisher] at “crossed” (i.e. at the bridge on the middle part of the chorus) whereby an A should be substituted with a B. Every print I’ve ever seen of the sheet music has the awkward B instead of the A!
I therefore appreciate your “trad-stride” approach given that sheet music is not always the best interpretation. Going on my learning to date, I’d presume that publishers’ piano sheet music appears to have been geared for simply piano. The above blemish appears to have been purely accidental to the reed player’s advantage, but I’m not so sure. Make up your own mind. I’ve scanned it on this link here.
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Thanks Simon, very kind
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I've still got till midnight on the eve of March 21st to correct a couple of things on this song!
Both of the glissando bars are really troubling at the moment - as to be expected when left to the last.
Two things that are preventing me from keeping to the rhythm {during these) are:
1. I need to tighten up on the arpeggiated chords at the end [which is at the end of the bridge] so that they can be differentiated from the adjoining glissandos without being lost; &
2. The downward glissando ending in a chord (near the start of the bridge) will need to be re-fingered with the pinky otherwise I will get a bruised index. I had this same configuration on the other hand with a different song and I changed my tact after getting the bruise - it worked and made my playing smoother with less effort required. It should have occurred to me earlier that I'd encounter the same trouble on the other hand at some point. Don't persevere when you get too much pain - simply reconfigure fingering!
[i've been here before though - a little patience/review sorts things. I've no regrets about being premature with the recording - as a before-&-after will be a worthwhile demo., whereby later the glissandos will fit within the constancy of the tempo - there are no ritardandos or the likes in "Winter Wonderland", so I can't lax here-and-there making up my own ones - not for me!]
I think I can pull this one off within the Moderato tempo. Watch this space! After that I can familiarise and get on with the character build up and feel...
[the current upload is embarrisingly clumsy - I know I can do better and this will be uploaded soon!]
bass/treble clefs piano-score practise
in Teaching and Learning
Posted
Thanks for sharing that it's a universal thing.
This would then make a good watchpoint for those looking to increase the strength of their third fingers, beyond limitations, in vain.
Knowing this, I'm glad I made the concious effort recently to re-finger back to my original configuration, i.e. on the cited example bar - a 3 note bass chord, which with a little inward horizontal wrist action (in this particular case) has been no problem ergo in arriving at the stipulated tempo. That said, for the time being, I may stick with the 'fall into place fingering' (i.e. best hand comfort configuration) option for the slower rendition, but certainly not at Moderato.
The instance on "MoY" is interesting as there is a variable bar that will not permit substituted fingering, but which incidentally works perfectly naturally with the third finger because it has to act interdependantly with (as I use) the index - phew!. This is the arpeggiated chord at "seems to be" as repeated at "and they all". The problem bar then occurs slightly afterwards (in introducing the bridge at "How I wish" as repeated at "Happy yester"), where the exact same chording requires complete independence from the first executed finger, which again incidentally, but conversely, permits substituted fingering - phew again!
Each bar on "MoY" has had its challenges and lessons, but this was the final one that'd been troubling me for too long - good to know why now with confirmation, thanks again!
For this particular arp'd chord, on a T-T EC, which is my range, it's the tenor C that has to be pressed first on the RHS as I have cleverly swapped a C2 for a C3 and likewise with G to straddle an E3 (ie C3,E3,G3).
Alternatively, a B-T EC would be able to play a G2 first (G2,C3,E3), but it would have to be a 56key B-T to reach the very final top note at the DC double arp'd chord; and for all I know that might entail different problems.
Yes, a Bass concertina would marginally succeed in playing the correct sequence of C2,G2,E3 but would miss out on much of the treble stave work of the score and would have to play simply the bass clef alone. There's also a contra bass Bflat (Bflat1) at a point in the chorus and in the verse that is marginally beyond a typical EC bass' range. However, this is fortunately a double octave Bflat - so there's no disaster of losing the Bflat1 and therefore doing as I do now, playing a lonely Bflat2, which is surely quite deep enough sounding. I'm often happy to lose the lower of the double-octaved notes within the bass clef when and if they occur, as I believe it's not detrimental. When I can't reach a singular contra-bass note, I simply raise the octave to bring the note into the baritone range i.e. typically to C3 upwards on standard T-T ECs; or typically G2 upwards for B-T ECs.
Glad that the discussion has opened up this other facet of the learning, which I'd also been trying to explain on the wrong forums. There's still a lot not been discussed here, but perhaps some of the above things are good starters for ten!