Jake Middleton-Metcalfe
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Posts posted by Jake Middleton-Metcalfe
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This may have been posted before, and is not necessarily relevant to the issue you guys are discussing but this man has made his own take on EC handle design:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmEPTosZ44g
Blue eyed sailor, is this the man you were talking about?
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It's a Tedrow concertina, but not Bob Tedrow.
I don't get it.
Is there another Tedrow cocertina maker besides Bob Tedrow?
he means its not bob tedrow playing it
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My concertina was actually made by this guy. About a year after making I asked to visit his workshop to which he agreed. He was very nice about it and showed me what he did and how he did it. I was pretty amazed at the fact that most of the tools were pretty basic, small circular saw, treadle fret saw, though he used them cleverly with some nice jigs. As shown in the video he has that classic internal shape bellows jig.
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I still think that this is doable. If people can 3d print a flute:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlq5R84TlVw
Or a violin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJA6J5girlo
Though this is not a task to be undertaken lightly.
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Struggling to achieve the impossible is all part of the fun of playing an Anglo. !
Agreed
[[Though I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with concertinas I always thought that things should always be questioned and improved and innovated upon as a process of evolution. The design of anything is rarely static, people always come up with new ways of doing things to improve the design in question. If someone can design a way of making a concertina easier to play I dont think we should see that as a dumbing down of technique]]
agreed. my thoughts on EC improvements are already on record. basically i think this system is great but ready for a re-design. i don't think of this as a trashing of ec. rather, i think of it as the "next step" in its evolution.
or, perhaps another way of looking at it might be, since there are apparently those who find the ec set-up fine as it is, i think there is a place at the table for a bilateral unisonoric system without some the features i and numerous others find damnable in current EC design and set-up.
I have never learned the English system myself and sort of fell into anglo from my melodeon playing. I have heard people making some complaint about EC ergonomics in the past though.
On the same note I met a lovely American lady who was playing an Aeola standing up for quite a while, I asked her how she managed. In response she allowed me to feel the muscle below her little finger. It was rock hard!
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There seem to be at least three sorts of suggestions here.
- Things the poster would like in order to (they hope) improve their personal concertina experience. These preferences can vary considerably among individuals, even to being direct opposites. ¨(Jake, I personally prefer the smaller buttons.
) - Things the poster believes will "improve" the instrument in ways that will render it more attractive and/or accessible (easy to get started on?) to a broad audience. E.g., lighter weight, smaller size, and less sensitivity to weather. (It seems to me that there are also some items that their proposers feel are in this category, but which I feel are more in the first category.)
- Pipe dreams. E.g., cut the price in half without adversely affecting any other property.
1. The only way to satisfy "everyone" with regard to the first category is to offer multiple designs or have ways to adjust those parameters. E.g.,
- Positioning of the hand rail on anglos and duets: Some like it high, some low. Some near the button array, some farther away. Some might want it angled with respect to the button array. I can even imagine someone wanting -- even needing -- it different for each hand. The "obvious" solution is to have a design that is adjustable in all of those dimensions. The problem seems to be designing such a mechanism that is still sufficiently rigid and rugged in use. Or maybe just doing so at a reasonable cost?
- Hand straps: We already have a separate thread to discuss adjustable hand straps. All the current designs (that I know of) can be adjusted, but not easily. And only a few can be adjusted continuously, rather than to a series of discrete positions. OK, inventors, here's your cue.
- Button diameter: As already noted, Jake and I seem to have opposite preferences. This might seem irreconcilable, but maybe not. Jake suggests a button design that resembles a mushroom-like stem and cap. Well, what about detachable caps? Something that could be pressed on similarly to the way rubber suction cups are popped onto plastic shafts to make darts for children's toys?
- Volume: Some want loud, some not so loud. An inherently loud instrument with baffles that are easily removed and re-attached seems one possible solution, though questions of tonality might prove an obstacle.
2. These are not necessarily independent. (I suppose the same could also be said of the above.)
- Smaller instrument: There have been a few reported instances of instruments in smaller-than-standard bodies, e.g., a treble-range English in a piccolo (octabe higher) body. Are these more difficult -- and therefore more costly -- to make? Do they sound different? I don't know.
- Lighter weight: In principal, one would expect a smaller instrument to weigh less. But other factors can also be adjusted. The instruments from the Button Box have a reputation for being much lighter than those of other makers. What are the differences which contribute to this? Rich Morse and his colleagues did a lot of research and experimentation to reach that objective. Can it be improved upon?
3. Modern makers have put a great deal of effort into developing a "best" compromise between acceptable quality and low price. Their solutions aren't identical, but indicate that it's not (yet?) possible to optimize both.
Great in depth reply. I suppose preferences are preferences when it comes to buttons, at its core playing an instrument is a personal thing. I like the suggestion of an adjustable hand rail. Interesting idea. I as you say the only problem with that would be weather people would be prepared to pay more for it or how easily it could be done.
@ button size&spacing: not much can be done here, I'm afraid. There are different button sizes with Anglos, but with Englishes and Duets you have to fit even twice as much buttons within comfortable reach. There is simply no way to make this happen on a 7"box - you need something the size of chemnitzer to do that. It is not only the size of the keyboard, but also minimum lever lenght and lever routing that play significant role here. Only Tona's Custom Dipper has bigger buttons, because his layout is arranged around the wrist pivot point.
@ my handrail/handstrap: I'm thinking about quite distinctive design here, but I will share it after building a working and proven prototype for my DIY.
@ adjustable handrail: I can think about at least a couple of robust, adjustable designs, of both height and distance to keyboard. And even slant. And I think that if there were demand on such solutions, modern concertina makers would include them. The problem here is that only few of us think in terms of adjusting concertinas to our personal needs. And there is one other limiting factor here: you can sell your instrument easier if it has common ergonomics and can be played by the new owner straight ahead.
And there is also one other question: how much change in ergonomics/design/layout will make the result to be a completely different instrument? Chemnitzers and bandoneons are also in the concertina family, but on this forum we don't treat them as such. There is one guy who makes rectangular "anglos" with large melodeon buttons...
That last paragraph really got me thinking....
I suppose the test of a different instrument would be if people would want to own one, if someone came up with a new system or design of concertina people might buy it or not. Its tricky territory here as to weather anything is an "improvement" as there are so many factors that might effect this, sometimes problems and solutions can be imagined... I remember seeing a violin with a guitar shaped body a while ago and thinking it looked rather ugly. Later I spoke to a man who's father was a Luthier and had given the subject of violin design great thought, he basically put it to me like this: "there is a physical object and its physical properties and then there is what those properties mean and represent to us". For me a violin without the traditional side cut outs looked like a half baked thing. When I thought about it though I realised the only reason that I didn't like it is because I wasn't used to it and there was nothing inherently wrong with the idea. (unless it adversely affected the sound, that is something I don't know about)
getting a bit more philosophical about it...when I compared this to a square concertina I had a good think about it and realised that actually for an accordion reeded instrument that shape makes perfect sense seeing as the reed blocks are rectangular, whereas a shape closer to a circle makes more sense for radially arranged traditional reeds. from that perspective it almost seems illogical to make an accordion reeded instrument 6 sided. Though it still looks a bit half baked to us as a 4 sided thing because you don't look at it and think "concertina". I feel like making a hybrid instrument 6 sided is sort of like a solution to the problem of making a "concertina" cheaply but ultimately putting those two extra sides don't make the instrument play better they just make us like it more. And still it makes me like it more. yet I am troubled by the idea that the design is physically logical.
Back to traditional instruments as I understand it is believed that the closer the shape is to round the better the tone. If that applies to hybrid instruments I am not sure, if it does apply then that gives a good and objective enough reason to stick with 6 sides. Did anyone ever test this theory of the relationship of the more circular shape to a better sound in the modern day? Either with traditional reeds or accordion ones. If no one has then I suggest making a few simple structures and testing it and then sharing the results, a waste of time or not, what would you guys say?
To answer the original question, how about:
. a facility to bend a note(s)
. to have notes that fade and to be able control sustain
. being able to adjust the volume of individual notes, or at least to be able to controllably quieten the bass notes
. being able to transpose the entire instrument to change its 'core key'. For example an Anglo that can play in C/G, G/D or Ab/Eb, etc... or a Hayden duet that can switch to Ab as its core key instead of D.
(I think the Hayden core key is D rather than C because D is in the middle of the button field and has more room around it. You could argue that the Hayden core key might be A, especially on a 65 button instrument. An EC or a Crane's core key would be C, I think. Make sense?)
Would love to see a concertina with the capacity to bend notes, unless anyone ever perfected the technique?
- Things the poster would like in order to (they hope) improve their personal concertina experience. These preferences can vary considerably among individuals, even to being direct opposites. ¨(Jake, I personally prefer the smaller buttons.
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I like button indentations to index the hands; not so much during play, but when first starting.
I'd also like to see more modifications made in the interest of long-term durability, as some wooden fretwork tends to break at the small points.
Especially as someone who often lives in the US (with its huge climate variations) and often travels, I'd like to see some use of materials/methods which helps to minimize swelling/contracting of the wood which leads to leakages and even potentially cracks in the soundboard.
I'd particularly like to see some inexpensive starter concertinas of decent quality produced using casting/milling of quality synthetics to keep the price down and durability high. The "Stagi Brunner Beginner" is a plastic 20b Anglo that's supposed to be pretty okay for the price, and looks like it'd be great to haul camping, to festivals, etc. Something like that but done with a bit more quality and not so huge and clunky would be great.
And, like so many people, I'm eagerly awaiting some clever tech cracking the code on the best way to produce concertina-type reeds in batches to narrow the price gap between accordion reeds and true concertina reeds.
I am interested to read what you have written about swelling and contracting of the wood. Kensington concertinas have a design feature that combats this effect : http://www.kensingtonconcertinas.com/kensington-reeds.html
I am very interested to know if anyone ever tried a more extreme approach and made the sound board or reed pan out of plastic, and how that would effect the sound and general function.
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As an avowed Luddite I would like to maintain the status quo. Do not re-invent the wheel . It ain't broke so don't fix it. Most modifications are to cover poor technique and lack of ability, as one that has both i can understand
I think concertinas are awesome and don't want to attack them and say they are bad but I have to say I disagree with this as a design philosophy, please hear me out on this one but of course we might disagree. Though I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with concertinas I always thought that things should always be questioned and improved and innovated upon as a process of evolution. The design of anything is rarely static, people always come up with new ways of doing things to improve the design in question. If someone can design a way of making a concertina easier to play I dont think we should see that as a dumbing down of technique as you are basically able to reach a higher standard of playing with less effort, kind of like how you might be able to throw a stone ball a certain distance and a lighter wood one a further distance, thats gotta be good right?A good comparison is how violins have evolved:they started having chin rests in the were invented in the 19th century after violins had been about since the 16th. Most players use them and like them (though thats not to say they have to).The violin is a complex example and when many old instruments are amazing the obvious example being a Stradivarius, its hard to see how such a design can be improved upon but.. amazingly the design has been improved upon, blind testing between strads and modern violins revealed that concert violinists found newer ones better, see this article:It is amazing to see that there is great progress made by modern violin makers, well done to them. Most concertina makers I have spoken to have put their own spin on the instrument vs a 19th century one, which I find really cool too.[All of the following ideas refer to Hayden Duet]
First thing that cames to mind is ergonomics (in terms of bellows controll, fingers reach and overall handling of the instrument in different body positions). Traditional handrail/handstrap have never suited me well, as I have very long fingers. I did some rudimentary adjustments to my Elise and plan to do some own research on this topic when my DIY project will finally reach handling stage.
The second thing to fiddle with is simplifying the action board, both in terms of number of parts and serviceability of the instrument. It drove me a bit mad to position and bush all buttons when I did my keyboard modification to the Elise. I have some ideas to experiment with on my DIY box and I remember seeing a drawing by one of concertina makers, that illustrated the usage of linear springs under the buttons, but I cannot find it now...
@Matthew - I think that the most robust concertinas suitable for camping and oher harsh conditions are some of the old German 20b Anglos - those which use common plate reeds. This is because such reeds are mounted to reedblocks not by waxing but by screws, so can tolerate high and low temperatures well. Unfortunately, they are usually double reeded, so they are quite large. As to concertina reeds - they not only need more work per piece, but also require a lot more work with the reedpan and there is too little demand for them for large scale production. So I wouldn't count on any change in their price and availability in any foreseeable time.
I find it interesting that you mention the traditional handrail and hand strap orientation not suiting you. I found this exact same thing. I actually spoke to Marcus of Marcus music about this one. Basically he said that he moved the hand rail on his anglos further back away from the buttons and made them higher than nornmally positioned on a 19th c concertina. I had an old lachenal anglo with me that I tried side by side with his anglo and found his more comfortable in my hands. Maybe that might be what you need for your duet?
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I have been interested by concertina design for a long time now and want to know what changes all of you concertina players would like to have made to the design of your instruments in an ideal world.
I am looking for people to make suggestions here, in as much or as little depth as you like. For example you might want to just suggest it be louder, or more comfortable to play, or you might go into great mechanical detail if you feel like it. Lets talk about all of the systems of concertina. Perhaps you might even suggest a new system? It would be great to talk to people about what we want and share ideas as to how someone might achieve these desires through design. I will start us off:
I would want an anglo concertina with bigger buttons, so they would be easier to locate with the fingers but not so big that it would affect their positioning. Probably mushroom shaped like a melodeons buttons, though smaller, made to be half way between the melodeon button and the concertinas button. I would also want a different arrangement of weight-distribution and hand support so as to make it very easy and comfortable to play standing up. I would also want it to be lighter in weight.
What would YOU like?
Jake
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as a professional architectural modelmaker with experience of these machines I would say go for it. It is an interesting concept to prove and an exciting project
not all the parts will be able to be printed, bellows, reeds and springs to name a few but there is no reason why you cant print the ends, action, buttons and reed pans on one of these machines. You could actually buy a 3d printer, some are not expensive and are consumer products. The best example of this is a fused deposition modeller like you posted. These make strong parts that have a slightly rough surface. I cant post a link on this website today for some reason I will add more later.
I had the job of setting up and working out the 3d printer when it arrived in our office. I had not used one before that and it took me about a week of working it out. The reason for this is that we had a cheap as chips very basic one. The one you posted looks very good and is no doubt up to the task.
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Your interesting routing machine reminds me of something really cool I saw recently. I visited my friends workplace, he is a product design prototype maker, he had a 'pantograph milling machine' which as soon as I saw it I thought... "THAT COULD MILL A CONCERTINA REEDPAN!!"
Sorry if I am telling you about something you are already well acquainted with but.. I just found this machine very interesting. It worked like this animation here:
so you have to have a small template (represented by the red heart) and you have a stylus which you trace around it (a laser cut template of the reed slot positions would work) and the end pictured drawing the green heart has a milling head on the end, with a dovetail cutter you could cut a reedpan out quite easily.
The machine he had was huge and 1950s so probably not suitable for a home project but... it might be worth investigating
Edit: though I think the stylus was on the larger image side with his machine
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A simple search for brass inserts 4-40 will get you plenty of hobby shop suppliers, good for a few at a time, and here is a more substantial supplier
http://www.microfasteners.com/bti0440-4-40-brass-threaded-inserts-for-wood.html
There is a firm called Yardley does much nicer ones, they press in rather than screw.
They do metric but only M3 and M2, ie. A little thin or a little fat for the job.
4-40 might be a thread you are unfamiliar with, it is an American thread but you will have seen plenty, they are used in computers, for example for the screws that hold printer cables into a parallel port, they usually have a plastic extension so you can do them up by hand. They have a major diameter of about 2.5mm, close in size to the 7BA often used in the UK. It would be unlikely to find inserts in 7BA but a metric size would be possible. I think you would need to be able to search in German or Czech etc to find a M2.5 insert and the simple search words "brass insert" would be unlikely to be the right ones.
I am not in the US. I guess I could order some from over that side but it seemed so far for such a small thing to travel. I only searched in english so didnt find any that were quite the correct size.
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this is a cool project. Its nice to see people thinking outside the squeeze box when making these things. BTW where on earth did you get the threaded inserts? they are like so hard to get hold of at the right size.
post a vid of it playing!
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surely you would want a morse ceili and a load of money to be traded for this? A morse is about £2000, if you traded your Willie van Wyk concertina for it you would be a few thousand out of pocket by the looks of things!
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ending tonight! 7:03 pm
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price drop £1000 to £950
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Hello concertina players
I am selling my c/g 30 button Anglo concertina, it has a stainless steel riveted action and 7 fold bellows (specified by me at extra cost.) It is a high quality metal ended accordion reeded instrument that was made for me in 2009. It was made by Anthony James. Here is his website http://www.apjmusic.co.uk/apj_30button_anglo.htm
Here are some pictures, I can upload more on request, for example if someone wanted to see the action.
Here is a video of me playing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMOr4kACmNU and another of me playing once I got a bit better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyqEq-gy3k
I am asking £950 ONO
any questions welcome
If you want to visit me, to play it and test it out I live in bradford-on-avon (near bath) you can contact me on 07821470159 -
ah I just had a look at theo's list. He has a nice looking wheatstone model. Its just a couple of hundred above my price range though. I guess I would be looking at the model below that one.
If you're looking at a swap with another member though, prices could be more agreeable, so while I may have come across as depressing, don't aim too low either!
heh
its alright you are helpful -
ah I just had a look at theo's list. He has a nice looking wheatstone model. Its just a couple of hundred above my price range though. I guess I would be looking at the model below that one.
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Hello
I have played the melodeon for years and approached the anglo a couple of years ago as a means of getting a more portable and chromatic instrument, with a similar playing style. However having now tried my friends english more extensively I think I would be best off with an english concertina, I am also starting to explore more classical music and other genres than folk. The tina I offer is a 7 fold bellows metal ended C/G Ap James concertina, it has 'gold star' style lachenal bellows papers. This is a hybrid concertina. New they are £1200, I paid a bit extra for the papers and extra fold. I think this is nicer than selling it and buying an english because I could meet the person who I would be trading with and we could play each others instruments and have a good decide weather we both like the deal. I seek a standard english treble concertina of the same quality, I am not bothered weather it is hybrid or traditional. Going by the price guide on the barleycorn concertina website, something like a higher end lachenal or mid range wheatsone in concert pitch would be good but I am open to all your offers. Either way, something that is ready to play. I would also consider selling it, if someone wanted to buy it I would accept offers around £1100
Here is a link to the website of the maker, look at the one with metal ends, that is the same as my one but with 7 folds and lachenal bellow papers:
http://www.apjmusic....utton_anglo.htm
here is a video of me playing it:
at this time pictures of the actual thing cant be done, as it is at my dads house miles away! I will upload when i am able. Thanks for reading!
Not to damp your hopes too much. Barleycorn prices are now a fair bit higher than suggested. I recently traded my mid range Lach. in for one of his lowest priced Edeophones. The Lach. was Rosewood, 5 fold metal button in well used condition, and he reckoned that after a small amount of tightening up to remedy my many hard years of use, he'd be offering it at ~£1200.
New model Lach's varied a lot depending on spec, but I think that they started at at least £1500. Fancier Edeophones than mine were at least £2500 and going on £3000 for metal ended, 6 folds.
I wasn't really looking at the wheastones, I think you'll certainly be looking towards £2000 for a mid range wheatstone.
Have a look at Theo's current for sale list (and drool) for comparisons.
However these are commercial sales from dealers who have to cover costs, back up problems, and turn a profit
private sales prices are often more modest esp. in the risky world of ebay.
Alright, I didn't know that. I am not to up to date on prices as I havent been in the market for concertinas for some time. I suppose it would be good to look for something similar to your old lach. 5 fold metal buttons rosewood type thing. I have played them they are rather agreeable.
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Hello
I have played the melodeon for years and approached the anglo a couple of years ago as a means of getting a more portable and chromatic instrument, with a similar playing style. However having now tried my friends english more extensively I think I would be best off with an english concertina, I am also starting to explore more classical music and other genres than folk. The tina I offer is a 7 fold bellows metal ended C/G Ap James concertina, it has 'gold star' style lachenal bellows papers. This is a hybrid concertina. New they are £1200, I paid a bit extra for the papers and extra fold. I think this is nicer than selling it and buying an english because I could meet the person who I would be trading with and we could play each others instruments and have a good decide weather we both like the deal. I seek a standard english treble concertina of the same quality, I am not bothered weather it is hybrid or traditional. Going by the price guide on the barleycorn concertina website, something like a higher end lachenal or mid range wheatsone in concert pitch would be good but I am open to all your offers. Either way, something that is ready to play. I would also consider selling it, if someone wanted to buy it I would accept offers around £1100
Here is a link to the website of the maker, look at the one with metal ends, that is the same as my one but with 7 folds and lachenal bellow papers:
http://www.apjmusic.co.uk/apj_30button_anglo.htm
here is a video of me playing it:
at this time pictures of the actual thing cant be done, as it is at my dads house miles away! I will upload when i am able. Thanks for reading!
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I think this sounds like a very interesting project. I would second the suggestion to look at john bodens songs from the floodplain. I once saw the spires and boden duo in bristol and john sung a song from this album, i remember it being set in a dystopian future of earth. I liked it.
I did once imagine doing something similar, like writing a song based in a world where people ride giant fleas instead of cars or horses (imagine how far a flea this size of a horse would jump!?) but i never did it in the end
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Wally Carroll is already using a lot of this technology in his new concertinas. All the reedframes are cut by wire EDM and the reed tongues are cut by the same method. The wooden endframes are cut by CNC as are many of the wooden parts. Parts for the bellows are cut by laser and so on. So, at least at his shop, this technology is in full action with ful interchangability.
Ross Schlabach
its all very interesting. i dont mean to suggest that it would be cheaper to buy machines to make your own concertina, but if you had access to cnc and lazer cutting many parts of the concertina would be easy to produce, not all of the instrument as alan correctly says.
The thing that interests me about it is the idea of computer files that will hold the data required to cut say a metal end or wooden parts of a concertina could be shared online the same way music is. say for example you wanted to make a new action for a concertina and you could download the file that holds the digital model of the action levers and put it through a laser cutter. Some companies offer the service of laser cutting for a fee. Sort of like paying for printing.
At some point i might try to design new ends for my concertina and have them cut out by laser as i have access to these machines at university. i will post pictures on here if i do
Lachenal 20 Button Anglo In G/d ?
in General Concertina Discussion
Posted · Edited by Jake of Hertford
what is wrong with comic sans? I wrote my CV with that font... Its a really good CV I don't understand why I can't get a job.
