danersen

John, I am very interested in your comment: "Despite the single reeds, my instrument has a thick, heavy sound, more reminiscent of a harmonium than of an English-made concertina. I have played it in church, where it was very well received and filled out the acoustic space nicely." There are reports in the literature that one of the motivations for the development of the bandonion may have been to provide "organ-like" accompaniment for churches who could not afford organs. Perhaps yours could be one of those? In any case, if you can provide a sound clip, it would be great to hear it with that historical perspective and possibility in mind. Be Well, Dan

RE: I think you are been too literal here. Perhaps, but no more so than our usual attention to details and distinctions like: Anglos, English, Duet Treble, tenor, tenor-treble, extended treble, piccolo, soprano, baritone, bass Number of rows, keys, air button or not, drone or not Wheatstone Aeola Mayfair A long list of catalog models and their corresponding differences in effect Lachenal Excelsior Raised ends New Model Edeophone Chidleys, Jones Retailers labels Specs for distributors and others, e.g., Matusewitch, Salvation Army Reed length, material, cut, pan, shoes, chamber size and corresponding harmonic differentials Size and location of the hole in the soundboard Various tuning hz at A Stamped or riveted reed assemblies Various actions Radial or parallel or arrangement Chamber sizes Bellows folds and materials Baffles or no and material of such Fretwork Metal or wooden ends - raised or flat Height, size, and rounded or flat-topped buttons Label colors and shapes Builders' addresss at the time of manufacture Persons associated with the specific firms at the time of manufacture Just to mention a few ... RE: BandonEon and BandonIon is the same. Just some spelling in German or Spanish, who cares. Some clearly do care as the nuances are more than variations in spelling and warrant mentioning by those who do care for those who are genuinely and seriously interested. RE: Systems don't matter, tuning doesn't matter. Octave reeds matter a little, but not much. Most hard-core, purist, tango players would consider this comment purely indifference or total ignorance. For the purist a TRUE tango bandoneon is bisonoric and tuned for tango which must be two reeds sounding simultaneously and tuned PRECISELY one octave apart - no exceptions, no deviations, no variations. The essential system is the 142 Rheinische Lage. The quintessential box is an AA (Alfred Arnold) built (in Germany and exported to South America) prior to the war. This is not true of bandonions made for European players who were often French CBA players more comfortable with various tunings and and who played unisonic instruments of various ranges produced particularly for them. It is also not true of Chemnitzers which are typically wet tuned and can have as many as four reeds. Be Well, Dan

Thanks, Wes. Links, again. http://www.ConcertinaMusic.com/ http://www.concertinamusic.com/sbox/history.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemnitzer_concertina Be Well, Dan

Hello, Here's a link to a summary with a couple of other useful links to information about Chemnitzers. http://www.absolutea...tzer_concertina This text from the article may be of particular note to folks here: "Sources differ whether German inventor Carl Friedrich Uhlig created his first concertina after seeing Charles Wheatstone's instrument of the same name, or whether the two men invented their instruments concurrently and independently. Uhlig's patent dates to 1834, and while Wheatstone patented a related instrument, the symphonium in 1829, he did not patent an instrument under the name "Concertina" until 1844." Be Well, Dan

Hello, Here's a link to a summary with a couple of other useful links to information about Chemnitzers. http://www.absolutea...tzer_concertina This text from the article may be of particular note to folks here: "Sources differ whether German inventor Carl Friedrich Uhlig created his first concertina after seeing Charles Wheatstone's instrument of the same name, or whether the two men invented their instruments concurrently and independently. Uhlig's patent dates to 1834, and while Wheatstone patented a related instrument, the symphonium in 1829, he did not patent an instrument under the name "Concertina" until 1844." Be Well, Dan

Hello, Here's a link to a summary with a couple of other useful links to information about Chemnitzers. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Chemnitzer_concertina This text from the article may be of particular note to folks here: "Sources differ whether German inventor Carl Friedrich Uhlig created his first concertina after seeing Charles Wheatstone's instrument of the same name, or whether the two men invented their instruments concurrently and independently. Uhlig's patent dates to 1834, and while Wheatstone patented a related instrument, the symphonium in 1829, he did not patent an instrument under the name "Concertina" until 1844." Be Well, Dan

Hello, Here are a couple of google search links for Bandonion History and Bandoneon History. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=bandonion+history&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g-sx1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=bandoneon+history&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= It is important to search both as the bandonion is historically different from the bandoneon is subtle ways which I think you will read in at least one of these articles. The articles listed here are very informative and are probably better read from the source than rewritten. I have not read them in some time, so if the matter of tuning is not addressed, let me know and I will seek out an additional source. Be Well, Dan

Hello Matthew, Harry really is the expert and brain-trust on all this, but, for what it's worth, I'm going to add a few comments that may add some perspective to your interests. I posted comments about the Geuns Hybrid in the "Hybrid Question" thread that Felix started that may also be helpful to you. Apart from their similar external appearance, chemnitzers and bandonions/bandoneons are really quite different animals. The tango bandonions are tuned differently in South America than in Europe. The chemnitzers are tuned differently than either of these. The styles of music and expression are about as different as you can get and the boxes have been designed and modified accordingly. The keyboard layouts vary widely depending on the box, maker, era, and location when and where they were built. Most are bisonic, but some unisonic boxes were built primarily in Germany for the French market when the French became enthralled with the sound and expression of tango int he early 1900's. The bisonoric tango layouts are too numerous to keep track of but fall primarily into Argentinian, German, and European layouts with variations in location and number of tones/buttons. There are two primary unisonic layouts among the bandoneons: Meisel and Peguri/Piguri. Meisel conforms strictly to a C-griff CBA layout while Piguri has a central core of C-griff CBA layout with accidentals and alternate locations utilized around the edges for ease/convenience. Neither are really anything like Hayden/Wiki despite the frequent comparison of Hayden/Wiki to a CBA layout. For what it's worth - to me - compared to a CBA layout, the Hayden/Wiki is cumbersome, awkward, and illogical. Over the years, Chemnitzers developed as dance/polka boxes in Europe and were played extensively in the upper midwest of the US for decades. Sadly, they were relegated to "bar boxes" over the years and today few really know how to play them. All told, there may be a handful of old-timers who really know the Chemnitzer and could be considered masters of the instrument. The same is true for those who can maintain or repair them. There is a movement to teach the Chemnitzer genre to younger players, but it has yet to compete with a band instrument or a guitar. The bandonion has experienced a resurgence in the last decade or two with expanded popularity and interest in tango. Perhaps this will bode well for it. Not having played the subject Morbodoni, I suspect that you will find that it has little in common with any English or Hayden concertina or with the Geuns Hybrid other than that they all have bellows. And, to me, that is quite wonderful - as you will have the opportunity to experiment with various systems and sounds that most do not enjoy. I hope these ramblings are in some way helpful to you. Please let us know what you discover. May you return home as safely as you left. Be Well, Dan

Hello Felix, I have direct experience with the Geuns Hybrid. It plays single tones on all buttons. The left hand is neither stradella, nor chordal. It is more akin to free-bass. It is unisonic - same tone on the press as the draw. if you play CBA, the right hand will be very familiar to you - as it is the same as a 3-row CBA which you can set-up as either C-griff or B-griff by swapping the blocks according to instructions which Harry provides. Similarly, if you play free-bass in either the C-griff or B-griff layout, the left hand will be very familiar to you. The block-swapping provides great versatility - you can play in the griff to which you are accustomed - and/or it is very useful in determining which CBA system you prefer. You can even play in C-griff in one hand and B-griff in the other. The playing and hand positions/angles are notably different from a CBA accordion and you are limited to three rows. Despite the familiar layout, it can feel a bit awkward at first, but that is quickly and easily accommodated. I learned a great deal and progressed significantly with the less expensive Geuns Hybrid and heartily recommend it for experimentation, education, and/or development. And mine sounded quite good, too. There are no differential tuning options, so you get what you get. The only drawback is that if you really like it, you'll really want one of the "good" ones which are substantially more expensive. It's currently the closest thing that isn't custom-built and readily available that a CBA player can get to a bandonion/bandoneon without having to alter fingering systems. And you can get a realistic sense of the bandonion/bandoneon format. Harry really is the expert and brain-trust on all this, but, for what it's worth, I'm going to add a couple of comments in the "Bandonion for Concertinists" thread that Matthew started some days ago which also relate to this. I hope this is helpful. Be Well, Dan

Reg, I realize that he is located about as close to the Idaho border as one can get without actually being in Idaho, but Wim Wakker is not that far off of I-90 in the Spokane Valley. You can get an opinion from one of the best without having to travel halfway around the world. I'm also acquainted with Joe, Jr., and I can also suggest that his expertise lies in accordions rather than concertinas. Both Wim and Joe are lovely chaps - with very different levels of experience and expertise in very different instruments, however. Perhaps a nice cross-state drive is all you really need to gain the information that you seek. Pick a sunny day. Pack a picnic lunch. And enjoy the beauty that awaits you. Here is a link to Wim's contact page: http://www.concertinaconnection.com/contact.htm Be Well, Dan

Hello All, Just for curiosity, I emailed and asked that he disclose the identity of the mentioned EXPERT as that may be an important consideration. I have copied his reply verbatim, below. Happy to do so - to the eventual buyer. - gpanda123 I am now even more curious why one would not disclose something important enough to mention in the first place. Thoughts, please. Be Well, Dan

Perhaps an analogy can be useful: One buys a vintage 1957 classic automobile represented as being in restored and excellent condition. Upon delivery and further inspection further inspection - a look under the hood, a crawl under the carriage, and a drive around the neighborhood - it's determined that the vehicle actually needs new brakes, belts, a heater, shock absorbers, a remount of the exhaust manifold, and an alignment. The upholstery, it is learned, was not replaced with proper period fabric, and the carburetor is not an original model replacement. Without regard to price - which may have been regarded as an initial bargain by some observers ... Is this vehicle restored and in excellent condition? Certainly, it is drivable ... but is it in restored and excellent condition? Be Well, Dan

Hello Marien, Your described scenario, though intriguing, is not for me. Perhaps, however, some reader of this forum will see the merit of it, acquire the concertina on that basis, and some good might come of this unfortunate situation. Be Well, Dan

For the record:

Hello Marien, This one is a different instrument. Fewer Buttons Different Handstraps Different Bellows MUCH cleaner inside as much as I can discern from the photo Different seller Be Well, Dan

Hello All, I waited until PayPal resolved this matter (in my favor) before posting this. If you encounter a metal-ended 58b Jeffries Duet for sale, open it up and check it out FULLY. I learned an expensive lesson about the unqualified use and meaning of the terms "restored" and "in excellent condition". The evaluation that was required by PayPal yielded a USD $1400 estimate to put it in proper playing condition. No need to say any more except that it's now back in the UK. Be Well, Dan

Hello All, In a previous post I asked for assistance with dating a Rock Chidley English that I stumbled across, and Wes Williams replied to address that matter. My initial interest in the subject concertina was to acquire it and use it as a floorboard instrument to keep handy whenever and wherever I was out and about. After inspecting (and purchasing) it, I'm astonished at its condition. Apart from the valve pads which are literally dried out and curled up on the ends, the instrument is in extraordinary condition. The reed pans look as if they were made yesterday and the workmanship is superb. There's not a speck of rust on any reed. The pans and the reeds fit snugly. The bellows are "as new" and air-tight. I'm stunned, actually. Everything appears original, beautiful, and apart from the soft fungible parts that have simply dried-up, it's in remarkable condition inside and out - with the exception of a one-inch slice of veneer missing at the palm on the right hand side and deteriorating (though still functional) thumbstraps. The label is even in beautiful condition. It's very stable, and there's not a structural crack anywhere. Though missing its handle and the key, the usual wooden case has nary a scratch or nick on it - though the inside material has faded in color and the glue is drying out and the fabric is subsiding in a few places. It's also interesting to note that the case has been properly routed to accommodate the large and ornate thumbstrap buttons. It seems improbable given its age, but I can't help but wonder if this might actually be all original. It's difficult to know what it may actually be with the proper attention (which I intend to ask Wim Wakker to do) because of all of the uncontrolled air flowing due to the dried-up pads and valves. So, I'm now wondering if this one ought to be regarded as more than a "floorboard" specimen - or if romance has overcome reason. Knowing NOTHING about the Chidley concertinas, I am seeking opinions, perspective, knowledge, advice - even speculation - about the character and prevalence of Chidley's instruments in general and if, perhaps, my regard for this concertina ought to be more than my initial "floorbaord" mentality. In any case, I will play it after Wim has tended to it. But if it is an atypical or unusual specimen, I will need to be more thoughtful about it and find a more "common" instrument to ride around on my floorboard. All comments are welcome. Be Well, Dan

My apology. Duplicate reply. Thanks, Wes. Please advise the location of "elsewhere." Be Well, Dan

Thanks, Wes. Please advise the location of "elsewhere." Be Well, Dan

Hello, An interesting piece has crossed my path and I'm seeking more information about it. Might anyone have any expertise or information in addition to the articles by Wes Williams here about dating a Rock Chidley English? The serial number is: 3862 The label reads: Factory Hollingworth St James RP Holloway Rock Chidley Manufactured London 135 High Holborn Might anyone be willing to opine - generally, knowledgeably, or speculatively - as to the merits and demerits of a Rock Chidley concertina? My search for previous content about this here in the forums produced little content. I may not have performed the search properly, so if there is an existing thread/s about this, please point me in the proper direction. Any and all assistance/suggestions and comments are welcome and appreciated. Be Well, Dan

All - This thread is quite interesting, and I can't help but wonder if anyone else is so curious as I - but not so bold to ask - about the identity of the unnamed expert. Perhaps the expert would be able to clear up many, most, or all of the uncertainty. Fiona - In my most gracious tone, may I suggest that asking others for assistance and then being needlessly critical of the efforts of those kind enough to respond to said request seems a bit disingenuous - at least to me. Be Well, Dan

Thanks, All. Be Well, Dan

Hello All, Given the continual commentary on Jeffries Anglos and the periodic mention of a Jeffries Duet, but virtual silence re: Jeffries English, I am wondering if any were actually made. I've read about an occasional reference that Wes Williams was aware of two Jeffries English instruments, but that's about all I've seen or heard on the matter. Historians, please enlighten me - or point me to any prior threads or discussions here that that did not return when I searched this site and Google. With much appreciation. Be Well, Dan

Original posting edited and updated. 16 July 2009 Be Well, Dan