wunks
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Posts posted by wunks
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2 hours ago, Peter Laban said:
That quite the statement. I suppose it depends where you look. I see people dance to these tunes in a social context regularly.
I never understand people who say that. The two forms are different. Surely you can impose a 'hornpipe rhythm' on a reel or speed up and flatten the rhythmic shape of a hornpipe and ignore the internal rhythms built into the melody but the form of the tune is such that it more often than not sounds forced and just plain wrong.
People dance to these tunes, yes, but I don't see them dancing the "hornpipe" except in an exhibition setting, which was my meaning. Sorry to confuse. The hornpipe dance in the examples I've seen is a singleton dance with lots of hops and leg kicks.
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5 hours ago, Mikefule said:
Well, yes, it is possible to play a tune in different ways. For example, there are some 4/4 or 2/4 tunes that can easily be converted to 6/8. One of my Morris friends delights in taking simple 4/4 tunes and converting them to waltzes and even to 5/4.
Thing is, if I want a particular tune, written in straight 4/4 or 2/4 to come out like either a polka or a hornpipe, I need to feel clear in my mind what a polka or hornpipe should sound like.
The furthest I've got by observation and inference is that hornpipes should make me want to do a heavy footed one-hop two-hop step and polkas should make me want to do a lighter 123-hop. The "tiddle-iddle om pom pom" hornpipe ending is apparently less diagnostic than I had thought.
I am reassured by the Mudcat thread that shows I'm not the only one who has struggled with this question. These rhythms are no longer part of the wider culture around me, but merely something within the community of folk enthusiasts, so I haven't grown up knowing the difference. (Indeed, some would say that I haven't grown up.)
For those who think it should be obvious, put yourself in the position of defining the differences between rockabilly and rock 'n' roll. The song Blue Suede shoes can be rock and roll (Elvis) or rockabilly (Carl) but the two styles, although similar, are different things.
It sounds to me like you have a good understanding of what a hornpipe should sound like. You just need more exposure, perhaps to the dancier renditions, to firm up your resolve. It's a good topic for friendly conversation but one that might not be easily nailed down.
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1 hour ago, Mikefule said:
That's exactly my problem. I hear these tunes played in a pub session environment where speed is often prioritised over accuracy and nuance.
When a hornpipe is played slowly, I know it can be identified by how readily you can decorate it with occasional triplets (Tum tum-ty | Tum tum | tumty tiddly | tumpty tum...)
When they're all played fast and smooth, with very little dotting or emphasis, I really struggle to know which is which.
Maybe you need a third opinion. What was the name of the tune? Most tunes can be found in the literature or on line with the designation of type, however there's an argument to be made that if it's played as a reel or polka then that's what it is at the time. If you're going by how the tune sounds in a particular setting it can be difficult to make a general determination. I'm curious as to why your friend (hopefully) thought the tune a polka. Many of us dance musicians get around this problem by dropping the designation from the name of the tune as I did above with "Fishers" (hornpipe).
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Well, I'll try but it's a difficult issue because many of the dances that go with these tunes are rarely performed anymore. Perhaps the best way to parse it out is to find an example of the dance being done either live or on u-tube. On this side of the pond at least, everything is played way too fast for the original dances. When we play for a contra dance it could be jigs, reels, hornpipes, polkas and/or marches but all played up to speed and rather "ironed out". To my mind, a hornpipe played for it's dance has a very dotted rhythm that verges on jig time. The first and third notes drag out with the second and fourth clipped. It's like a jig in double time with the middle note left out. A hornpipe is also very "notey" compared to a polka with the embedded mini jig sometimes expressed as a run. To add to the confusion, some hornpipes are amenable to being sped up and some are not. "Fishers" doesn't seem to mind being played as a reel but "Boys Of Blue Hill" won't tolerate it.
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I'm finding a somewhat similar but more flowing technique works well for accompanying songs that are usually or sometimes performed acapella. A nice slow version of "Rollin' Down to Old Maui" would be an example.
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3 hours ago, Wolf Molkentin said:
This is admirably relaxed and confident playing, David - with a somehow enigmatic concertina face that in the eyes of the beholder could very well be reflecting enjoyment to some degree I reckon...
Best wishes - ?
The big smile at the end reveals the truth. Beautifully played.
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Sounds wonderful! I like the light and varied touch with the lower harmonies. Lets the melody shine!
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5 hours ago, Mikefule said:
That's an interesting comparison.
Thinking also of (?) the Plymouth Philharmonic (?) which many years ago did some experimental thing where they did minimal rehearsal because that's what orchestras had to do back in the day when the score arrived with the ink still wet on the day of the concert.
Thinking also of recordings of William Kimber, whose playing sounds odd and crunchy to modern ears, and not at all like the style that many people now call "English".
Every generation, including ours, is part of the folk/popular process. It's not an us and them situation. Just as the Victorians did, we play the music that is known to us, using techniques and harmonies that we hear around us.
We are able to listen to a wider range of music and styles, and have far greater access to theory. This has many advantages, but the disadvantage is that some of the simplicity and soul of the music may be sacrificed to sophistication and smoothness. "Handicapping" ourselves by playing the simpler instrument forces us to find what is already in the tune, rather than showing what we can put into the tune.
That's very well put Mikefule. Simplicity and constraint yield expression and "soul".
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21 hours ago, Geoff Wooff said:
I would say ' If it suits you , go for it'.
I have done this with duets but also with the English, albeit in a different way. in that changing octaves ( on the EC) throws each note onto the other hand. It appears that one hand is dominant and the other follows it . The results of this ,on the English, are that playing a tune in one octave can feel more natural than in another octave. Practice, of course ,overcomes the difficulties but the movement flow ( of the tune) remains affected by this shifting of 'control' from one hand to the other.
More recently I have been learning the chromatic accordéon and there it appears I am 'left hand dominant' though not left handed as such.
Thanks for your supportive post Geoff. It encourages me to expand a bit on the idea. It has been expressed that the concertina was intended to emulate the violin, however on that instrument, the notes are selected with the fingers of the left hand. We agree that "handedness" makes a difference in feel and flow of a tune. It seems to me that the concertina as conventionally played is more suited to the range of the viola with the left hand lead. Because the instrument is roughly bilaterally symmetric and has an overlap of notes in the mid range, (duet), turning it over allows for a left hand lead in the range of the violin. I'm envisioning an instrument with a little more overlap in the middle, a new hand strap arrangement and perhaps some more thumb key low notes so I don't have to buy a Bass au Pieds☺️
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I recently took my Jeffries duet from it's case without noticing it was reversed and upside down and after some absentminded noodling I noticed something was different. Although the finger patterns were much the same I was playing in the higher register. As I realized my "mistake" I played around with it a bit more and didn't flip it over because there was something pleasing to my ear going on. The same notes on the same keys which sounded thin, lifeless and rather harsh when played with the right hand suddenly came to life with the left. Additionally, I discovered that when playing tunes in the overlap zone, being an ear musician, switching hands produced an entirely different result. I realize that playing in this way may seem "over bold" to some but the duet and possibly the anglo don't seem particularly prejudiced as to orientation. EC's would seem limited by the thumb straps and pinky rests. I think this is a Left Brain/Right Brain phenomenon that could be of great value in expanding the range of expression for some players of these instruments. What say you?
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8 hours ago, Wolf Molkentin said:
O.k., this had been my initial understanding too, but then I deemed that all too bold... ?
Wolf, sounds like an opportunity for a new thread, I'll start it in the morning.
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38 minutes ago, Wolf Molkentin said:
Due to my lack of knowledge re playing a Duet concertina I'm not sure about my understanding your post. As to the EC I can say that I'm playing my instruments rotated by 60 degrees if possible (with the Aeola, it has to be just 45 degrees then for obvious reasons, as 90 degrees would be exceeding my ability of easily reaching all the buttons, if needed simoultaneously two or three of them on one end).
This approach is essential for my "harmonic" style. However, Simon Thoumire, who is mainly playing melody lines, is doing a similar thing (maybe even to a greater extent).
Best wishes - ?
I'm suggesting turning the instrument end for end vertically to play the conventional right hand side with the left hand. The thumb loops and pinky rests would be inverted on an EC. Let's call it Brobdingnagion style if you will. ?
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13 minutes ago, Lofty said:
I have played a MacCann the wrong way round, simply by not paying attention when I picked it up. I thought it felt a bit funny, but it worked.
I’m not sure that it sounded any better though: I am a beginner. It certainly sounded different.
Steve
Same way I "discovered" this. I'm a beginner on concertina also but a long time musician (by ear) so I have the music in my head already, which may be why it works for me.
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On 10/27/2018 at 7:20 AM, Bob Michel said:
A guitar—especially with the aid of a capo—is much better suited than an Anglo concertina to playing full chords in all keys. So if you’re playing along with a guitarist, you can consider that duty covered; rather than simply trying to double what s/he is doing, you can explore styles of playing that apply the strengths of your own instrument.
While big chords certainly have their place, I think the Anglo’s real forte is understatement: less is usually more. With a guitarist on board, someone else is doing the heavy lifting, and you’re free to fool around. Instead of trying to duplicate that booming E chord, try doubling the melody, or improvising from it. Or work out a single-note harmony line. Or invent a lovely countermelody. Or alternate a simple drone harmony (one or two notes) with runs and fills.
We have no capos, so every key will be different, and the further you stray from your home keys of C and G the weirder and more challenging your scales and chords will become. But it’s always possible, and it’s always interesting.
Bob Michel
Near Philly
Maybe this is a good place to suggest a method of playing that can enhance and add interest, but may seem heretical to some. As I've progressed in my playing of the Jeffries duet, I've found that tunes sound different and some sound better (To me at least) when the instrument is swapped end for end and played upside down. The fingering patterns are basically the same with a few variations but my right brain (left hand) comes up with different harmonies, internal rhythms and tempos. This also seems to solve some of the problem (for me) of playing in the higher register. Additionally, some keys away from the center (C on my instrument) are easier to play. I don't see that this is doable on an EC without modification of the grip system but it may work for other duets and I'm thinking anglos as well, which is why I've posted it here. Forgive me if this has been covered in other threads.
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1 hour ago, David Levine said:
I agree about the need for the case to breathe, which is one reason I am not very fond of the bulky, heavy Pelican case. Waterproof isn't the same as air tight. I have been using my fishing tackle bag (purchased at Aldi for about €8) for over twenty years now, with nary a problem. I have used it in rainy Co Clare, wet Seattle, frigid New Hampshire, and bone-dry Tucson. I can also carry my keys, wallet, cell phone, and other bits and bobs, which is very handy, especially while traveling on an airplane.
And it's large enough to carry my flute, in it's hard-case, which is a huge bonus for me.
It works, so that's the proof.
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1 hour ago, David Levine said:
This is probably a dead topic. I am thinking of selling my bulky, heavy hard cases and using a waterproof fishing tackle bag. The soft case is more protective in a fall from a table but it won't support a car if you have a need for a jack-stand. It is, however, waterproof. Definitely not cool, which is better since it won't be as tempting to a thief.
I'd be cautious and do some research first. It's not just a matter of keeping moisture out, but letting it escape, and /or keeping just enough in to prevent drying out. When you bring a sealed bag/box full of air outside, temperature and humidity will try to equalize. Warm air will hold more moisture than cold and if there is a moisture barrier (plastic liner) it will become the dew point for condensation and may sweat. You'll still have the same amount of H2O in the box but now it's water droplets or a wet film rubbing against your instrument. I'm not an expert on this; it's complicated . please comment.
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10 hours ago, MrG said:
Updated in main post. I am pushing my budget up to about $200, hoping to get a decent little Stagi or something like that. Thanks for all the help and advice!
Excellent. Be patient. I recently picked up a Lachenal English needing repairs for $250.
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Frequent lawn sales, estate sales etc.. You need to get to the deals ahead of the speculators. Don't buy a plastic concertina that doesn't work perfectly for over $50. There are indeed good ones out there for under $100. Be patient and you'll get lucky. Good luck!
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On 9/29/2018 at 8:39 PM, Podzol said:
To add to the list of instruments for the rain, I'd like to add spoons, washboard, and voice.
That combo begs for nakedness and a tuba or digerido!
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Seems to me it's a triple (at least) problem with conflicting solutions. You want to dry the metal parts quickly to prevent rust, but dry the wooden and leather components slowly to prevent warping and/ or cracking. As a tennis player from the wooden racket, gut string era, we wiped and dried our strings and used a racket press ( having failed to obey Theo's cardinal rule). As d.elliot says above, I would first ( upon returning to your warm , dry and cozy flat, cottage or castle) play it dry. go through all the keys repeatedly. The surface moisture should dissipate before it soaks in to the valves and bellows and the valves should be held flat by air pressure when not being played. You could then fashion a stiff brace for each end that screwed or bolted to a hidden set of holes under the end plate rim (requiring it's removal. I'm reluctant to say that the end plate bolts themselves would be up to it). Alternatively, purchase an instrument made from moisture resistant materials for outdoor gigs.
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Your instrument , whether Anglo, English or duet, has a pattern. Sit and play easy beautiful tunes that you like slowly and search for the notes that you need. Soon your neurons will make the desired connections.
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The marriage of wood and metal, and a bit of hide. The flesh and blood of Humanity!
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Any "turn" can be simplified to either a doublet or triplet a slide or a hold or skip and to throw these in rather than playing it the same every time through adds character. I play a five note turn in some jigs like Bloomin' Meadows but vary it with a simple lift and rest or a doublet (on Fiddle). I'm just learning it on duet, but it seems easy enough. All the notes in a turn don't need to (and probably shouldn't) have the same time value.
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On 8/23/2018 at 4:27 PM, David Barnert said:
Coming late to this thread...
I agree with Danny. I think it is remarkable what one can get away with on concertinas, given that they are relatively recently invented contraptions designed to mimic what a violin can do, but it’s nothing compared to what an instrument with many hundreds of years of tradition (both in building and playing) behind it can offer. Playing other than equal temperament has already been mentioned. Add to that vibrato, glissando, and greater dynamic range, and there’s really no comparison.
Frets and buttons have their advantages, but perhaps the Slide Whistle (modern version, English around 1840)is was more successful? ?
Hornpipe and polka rhythms?
in Tunes /Songs
Posted · Edited by wunks
correction
In a thread "History of Hornpipes", from The Session forum, Ronald Ellison mentions Walsh's Tunes Book of 1730 from the Manchester Music Library. He says it contains 25 Hornpipes in 3/2 but doesn't say if there are any in other time signatures. The whole thread is an interesting read.