accordian
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Posts posted by accordian
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Lots of good advice and common sense from Mikefule.
"If you simply want to take an existing arrangement of a piece of music in any key and transfer it to a concertina as unchanged as possible, then the Anglo is probably not for you."
I would go further than this. It's not just about whether the notes exist on your particular concertina, it's about how it sounds. Each instrument has it's own characteristics and timbre, and rarely does a straight transcription work. For example, dissonances that sound great on a guitar often sound horrendous on a concertina.
"You would constantly be battling it, frustrated that you need to transpose to different keys, and grumbling at the compromises. A duet would probably suit you better, or possibly an English."
I play mainly Crane duet, but even on that compromises are necessary; even when "copying" the playing of another concertina. But this statement itself needs two big caveats.
(1) "even on that" suggests that the Crane is more capable than the Anglo; but as has been pointed out in another thread, the number of alternative fingerings on an Anglo suggest that might actually be the more capable instrument; with enough buttons and in the right hands. Listening to Cohen or JK should convince anyone of that; and in fact it was also brought home to me watching Adrian Brown's video on mean tone vs equal temperament tuning. For all that, my brain is more attuned to the logic of the Crane layout, so I'll stick with that and work within the characteristics (or "limitations" if you prefer) of that instrument.
(2) "compromises are necessary" is the wrong way of thinking about it. It's more the challenge of "how do I make this work for me on this instrument?" Most if not all of the suggestions Mikefule makes for the Anglo apply equally to the Crane. For me, one of the most satisfying aspects of learning a new tune is working out an accompaniment that really complements it. And although the same principles apply to both instruments, the end results are likely to be different because of (i) different people's ideas of what sounds good and (ii) the options afforded by the particular system you're playing. I'm far from the first to say "necessity is the mother of invention". And therein lies the fun.
oh i don't mind the how can I make this work it's just i'm not particularly inventive. and as for compromises in terms of chords and what not if I can make a song like katyusha and monkey island etc. work on concertina like that then lets go for it. although granted not chords I don't really mind I was just thinking in terms of I'd like to learn how to play this instrument however with what I would like to play on it I don't know if it's possible eg. la tarantella. especially when it comes to being inventive eg. the katyusha video had no chords or at least none visible to me and so he made that himself which is quite amazing however in terms of writing music I can't read it let alone right it.
thanks
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well I don't currently have one so I spose thats one thing lol
I'd like to try it out and not have to spend to much. i mean if it works and you can plays songs then woo hoo as for a beginner instrument i'm not
too worried about sound although you say about the bellows. as in not enough air? but again i'm only starting and don't want to spend too much yet
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anyone know if this instrument is
any good?
thanks
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what i meant was is say I was to play la tarantella on a 30 anglo c/g the first part of the song that uses chords is fairly long and so I would start with a minor as I can use that in both directions however in part of the song I would need dm and so would only be able to play the chord dm going outwards. so I would need to stop so I can close the concertina a bit then continue.
The usual thing with an Anglo is, if all else fails, to imply chords by playing the one or two notes that are available. It is an Anglo, and will not necessarily provide all you need for an arrangement written for a different instrument. It is often the compromises that give the Anglo its unique and charismatic sound. Nothing wrong with that: there are plenty of perfectly respectable instruments (violin, flute, need I go on) that don't do chords at all.
That said, it is surprising how easy it becomes to manage the amount of air in the bellows and play without stopping if you practise.
in this scenario what would you do? thanks for your help so far
I would need to know the piece of music, and I might then spend a lot of time deciding, and a better player might well come up with different or better solutions.
I have generally found that in some specific cases, "artificially" changing the bellows direction just to "chase" the right chord can sound wrong. It's not just whether you have the right 3 notes for the chord, but whether it is the right version of the chord (which inversion? Is it high or low? Is it close position or spread over a wider range? What chord precedes it? What chord follows it?) You can't always get away with just playing the version of the chord that is available.
Where a full chord is not available, or where the one that is available sounds wrong in context, you need to consider things like how long you would like to hold the chord for, and whether it is on the beat, off beat, or across two or more beats.
Several common options, at least one of which will always work:
1) Do not play an accompaniment at all for that note. It is often less than half a second, and the ear will fill in what s missing, or at least, will not miss it.
2) Play a note an octave (or 2 octaves) below the melody note. This keeps the accompaniment going. In some tunes, I play a bar, or half a phrase, or more, in octaves.
3) Play the third or the fifth if available.
4) Vamp on the melody side - the next button down (in pitch) usually works, but other options are available on a 30(+) button.
5) Play a pair of notes, either together or sequentially (a partial arpeggio). Where the full chord is not available, it is often the case that two of the required notes are available.
6) Transpose the music into a different key. In very simple terms, on a C/G, there are some tunes that sit better in C and some that sit better in G.
I'm sure if I put my mind to it, I could come up with other solutions. The thing is that the Anglo is an instrument that encourages/forces you to be creative. We try to do things with it that it was not originally designed for.
The limitations of a 20 to 30 button instrument create a distinctive Anglo sound, with lots of octaves, pedal points, short bass runs, dry fifths and vamped thirds as the musician works out the best solution for that particular tune. A 38 (or more) button instrument offers more choices, but sometimes at the expense of that distinctive sound. In theory at least, an Anglo could have enough extra buttons to be full chromatic across 2 or 3 octaves and offer every full chord, but it would be huge, unwieldy, and no longer really an Anglo. The core of the Anglo is the two diatonic rows a 5th apart, and all the other buttons are useful extras.
It is a gross simplification, but think of the English and various duet systems as "designed" and the Anglo as "developed". The Anglo started life as 2 buttons, 2 keys, offering very simple chord options. It was often played by people with little or no musical training who played by ear and either used a simple 1,4,5 accompaniment, or even a 1,5 accompaniment, or played in bare octaves for extra volume.
More buttons were then added to provide more options. Players then took this in two directions: some used the accidentals to build scales in different keys and used it to play mainly single line melodies (Irish traditional music, for example) whilst others used it in the main keys, but with richer accompaniment. Some of the better players then developed ways of playing both melody and accompaniment in a wider range of keys, working creatively around the limitations of the instrument.
Professional folk singer/concertinist, Keith Kendrick, who gave me my first few lessons, refers to the Anglo as the "thinking man's piano". He would say that "it's all there if you know where to look."
If you simply want to take an existing arrangement of a piece of music in any key and transfer it to a concertina as unchanged as possible, then the Anglo is probably not for you. You would constantly be battling it, frustrated that you need to transpose to different keys, and grumbling at the compromises. A duet would probably suit you better, or possibly an English.
However, if you want the challenge and enjoyment of playing an instrument that encourages you to be creative, to find out how the tune works, and find new things in the tune that you hadn't noticed before, the Anglo is a truly wonderful instrument.
I play mainly by ear, although I sometimes use the dots to learn a new tune or remind me of an old tune. There are tunes that I play most days and have known for years, and every so often, despite having played the tune 1,00 times before, I suddenly find a different solution. It may be two beats of one bar where a different bass note fits, or it may be something more fundamental like refingering a whole phrase, or transposing the tune to a different key. It is not true to say that corny jazzman thing, "I never play the tune the same way twice" but it is certainly true to say that I don't always play the same tune the same way.
A flute can only lay one note at a time, however good the player. A violin can play two notes at once, but double stopping is the spice that brings a tune to life, not a fundamental aspect of the instrument. A piano can play anything in any key, but it can't bend notes like a harmonica. Every instrument has strengths and limitations. Ask not what your Anglo can do for you; ask what you can do on your Anglo.
ah this instrument is so tempting. I mean as I showed with the katyusha video and the monkey island theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-YhUTXVaOQ
i'd love to be able to play that but I don't know how to go about it. especially for minor chords but then again I spose you can play other things instead of chords as katyusha by the same person doesn't use chords
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxn8n5Shu4M
the thing is I don't mind simplicity however that being said i'm not really the best at music theory or anything like that so i don't know about finding things out.
if I buy an anglo and try it and find it too comfusing just say that I'd like to change some of the reeds with accordion reeds so that it's custom to me, is it possible?
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There is quite a lot of music played on the Hayden Duets of all makes and sizes on youtube. Specifically for the 65 button look for Chas Jacobs. Also see many different types of music played on smaller Hayden duets. Look out for JeffLeff on his 46 button instrument.
I mentioned the 65 button instrument as being the closest to a medium sized piano-accordion. One other feature I didn't mention which the Hayden duet has in common with accordions is that octaves repeat.
Inventor.
just out of question where would i buy a duet as i can't seem to find any
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what i meant was is say I was to play la tarantella on a 30 anglo c/g the first part of the song that uses chords is fairly long and so I would start with a minor as I can use that in both directions however in part of the song I would need dm and so would only be able to play the chord dm going outwards. so I would need to stop so I can close the concertina a bit then continue.
The usual thing with an Anglo is, if all else fails, to imply chords by playing the one or two notes that are available. It is an Anglo, and will not necessarily provide all you need for an arrangement written for a different instrument. It is often the compromises that give the Anglo its unique and charismatic sound. Nothing wrong with that: there are plenty of perfectly respectable instruments (violin, flute, need I go on) that don't do chords at all.
That said, it is surprising how easy it becomes to manage the amount of air in the bellows and play without stopping if you practise.
in this scenario what would you do? thanks for your help so far
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"I get that there is a air button but then I'd have to stop playing use the button and continue."
Actually, you can use the air button while sounding notes. You don’t have to stop to take a breath.
Endorsing what Jody says (not that he needs it!) learning to use the air button well is one of the skills that makes you a good player because you can let the instrument breathe, rather than being forced to cheat by playing inappropriately louder or softer, or cramming down extra buttons just to keep the bellows within their range. The air button is played at as and when necessary, usually at the same time as one or more notes. The way I do it is with an occasional sharp tap with the side of my thumb, in time with the music, by sort of bracing or arching my hand slightly more. It's hard to describe, tricky to learn, then surprisingly easy to do.
what i meant was is say I was to play la tarantella on a 30 anglo c/g the first part of the song that uses chords is fairly long and so I would start with a minor as I can use that in both directions however in part of the song I would need dm and so would only be able to play the chord dm going outwards. so I would need to stop so I can close the concertina a bit then continue.
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The Hayden duet is the closest concertina to the Accordion. A 65 button instrument has virtually the same compass as a 34 key piano-accordion on the right hand side. On the left hand side you have notes going down about an octave and a half below this, and an overlap with the right hand side. All the notes are individual, so you have to make a chord by playing several buttons at the same time. However on a Hayden duet once you have learned the pattern for a major chord this repeats for many other major chords. Minor, dominant seventh and diminished chords each have repeating patterns too.
Now here is the big bonus for an accordion player :- the chords are in the same order from left to right as the standard stradella accordion bass; but concertinered into a zig-zag nearly half the width !
On the 65 button instrument it is easy to play something very similar to an accordion um-pah bass. First play a deep note and the octave higher on adjacent fingers to give the "Um" ; (and note, this is easier on an instrument with the specified Hayden slope, which slightly offsets the octaves than the American slopeless style). Then play the chord(s) in a higher register to give the "Pah(s)".
I would compare the 65 button Hayden concertina as the equivalent to a 34 key 72 bass piano-accordion, and the 46 button Hayden concertina equivalent to a 25 key 40 bass piano-accordion.
Inventor.
while one of these types of concertina's would probably be my best bet at the same time i dont want to spend too much
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[[after seeing this video I wonder if I can transpose other songs to play on concertina such as la tarantella , beer barrel polka etc.]]]
you mean, Anglo, right? Certainly. You just have to keep it simple, which you've noted you don't mind, and you can't do it in a huge number of keys. Check out Marien Linda's Anglo version on youtube of the "Monkey Island" theme, on a Lachenal Anglo.
cool. as for the different key's I was going to play these songs in the key of the concertina eg. la tarantella in cm however thats one of things i'd like to know about before buying. is it possible to do minor chords in both directions and if not how do i go about playing the chords and the melody if I run out of air. I get that there is a air button but then I'd have to stop playing use the button and continue. unless there are some minor chords you can play in both direction which then it would just be a matter of finding the right key however then the melody comes into play although honestly as said I don't really know enough about them so I don't know how this would work in terms of will I have the right notes for the melody although then again I spose if I found some minor chords that work for both direction then it wouldn't be a problem. but then the thing is are the notes i'd be playing going to be in the same octave and so the song won't sound weird.
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Is the OP question about playing "two parts" focused on, one part being melody, and the other the bass accompaniment? I think that's the question, and I see the other responses here are taking that as the question, but I'm hair-splitting bc I'm not 100% sure what the OP is asking.
But if that IS what you are asking, Anglo is not the optimal concertina system for that type of playing. You CAN do some amazing stuff on Anglo in this vein, with creative arranging, and there are regulars on this very site who do that kind of magic. But the number of keys you can do it in, is limited. On a 30-button, you do not have all notes on the left-hand bass side, and you don't have all notes in both directions on either side. On a 38/40 button, there are ergonomic issues that interfere with having full free rein for this kind of arranging.
In Irish trad, the Anglo players don't care about these limitations, because ITM is largely melody music. There are bass effects, but it's constrained. There is a contemporary trend of playing more bass chords than they used to, but they do it in the keys that work for that on their Anglo, and don't do it, or just do a double stop or such, for the rest.
RE English system. It is ironic that the so-called "treble" system is known as the typical session EC, because as the OP points out, it wastes much of the layout with ridiculous high notes no one uses, and wastes the ergonomically most comfortable part of the concertina end where your fingers fall naturally, on those very ridiculous and useless high notes.
The stupidity is further compounded by the fact that the Tenor EC, like the treble a 48-button layout, but minus the super-high notes and plus some really useful lower notes, is stereotyped as being for backup to singers and super-hard to find unless you have one built new. In fact it may be the most brilliant concertina for dance-derived instrumental world folk music, particularly if you need to play fast, and like a melody=prominent sound. You can play melody or chords in any key in either direction, and the whole range is comfortable to your hands.
The caveat being, if you want a literal rhythmic bass constantly under your melody, like, bass-chord-chord waltz oompah . . . it "can" be done on an EC. But it's pretty tough. Not too bad for the hands. For the brain. Because of the bilateral layout. Your chords will be split between sides, and your melody notes are switching sides as well. But you can get great effects by doing that for a couple of measures here and there at the same time as your melody note, plus, doing it in the "spaces" where the melody pauses. Where "pickup" or filler phrases go that connect the A and B parts, etc. It gives the impression to the listener, that a bass line is going the whole time, when it really is not. A wonderful example of Tenor EC arranging on instrumental folk is the CD "Black Boxes," by the UK musician Sarah Graves, who plays two ebony-ended Tenor 48s on the recording, an Edeophone Tenor 48, and a Wheatstone Aeola Tenor 48.
However, if you want literal, perpetual rhythmic bass under your melody for the complete, entire duration of the piece, the fact is, that is optimally done on a duet. Is there some reason you don't want to go duet?
my preffered layout is an anglo.
i ask because i saw this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxn8n5Shu4M
if he can do this then what else is possible as
i like the layout of the concertina however
before didn't know much about it.
after seeing this video i wonder if i can transpose
other songs to play on concertina such as la
tarantella , beer barrel polka etc. im not looking
too much into playing iron maiden lol just simpler
tunes.
thanks for the response.
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sry i dont know too much as i'm mainly an accordion player
in terms of what I know ive looked into the different notes on
30 key anglo and seen that some chords work in one direction
but not in the other however what I dont understand is which
button is in which octave eg. on the left there might be 2 c's
(only as example) and I wont know which ones higher.
just noticed 40 anglo's exist. is it more possible to do this sort
of thing on 40 button ones.
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would it be possible to have a custom instrument created
if I was to reach out to someone?
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what i'm asking is it possible to play 2 parts rather than just one eg. a waltz but not within 1 chord
eg. C CM CM
I like the look of the Anglo however with what i've seen so far on the layout trying to play
a polka is a nightmare. or at least say a polka using say a Bb chord and I know
about transposing however that being said is it only possible to play chords in 1 range
eg. c cm g cm c cm g cm or can you also a other chords and it's limitation being
skill.
I ask because I don't one but would like to however I like to play two pieces of the song
eg. the waltz part or the polka etc.
I understand that there is the English concertina however I also understand that
it's all quite high pitched and so it wouldn't sound as good that being said
I don't own any type of concertina and would like to ask for a suggestion
I get that there are the duet systems however they cost alot considering I
don't even own a cheap one yet
Can You Play Concertina Like Accordian
in General Concertina Discussion
Posted
anglo is such an awesome concertina