Sprunghub
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Posts posted by Sprunghub
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I am not sure if this would apply given your intended itinerary, but were I leaving the Uk ( or travelling to, or through it ) to go to some - possibly most countries given the way we are being perceived within "Europe" which, like the Swiss, we have apparently become "disconnected" from by not being in the "EU" - I would have evidence of "prior purchase" before entering/leaving.
A receipt....phone image of the instrument with a date verified picture in the home environment, or whatever to prove ownership, especially with a "new" instrument.
It may be you have no intention of coming anywhere near us, but if you do, you don't want to have a "Ham Sandwich" moment courtesy of some over zealous Customs official charging you an "Import Duty", or seizing your instrument.
It looks as if, for Uk / EU travel, they have "lapsed" the Carnet requirement for "hand luggage" for Air/Sea ( not vehicle ??) passenger, foot travellers if that is relevant.
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30 minutes ago, Richard Mellish said:
I see some serious missing of points going on here.
I think you have one, Richard.....and mine has probably been made.....
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Hi Mike, this was not an advert to sell. It still isn't! But given your public post responding to a 'private' exchange, and to clarify re. your private critique and my subsequent rebuttal of the suggestion that it contained 'safety pins' for springs and had 'possibly saveable' bellows, I add the images you mention.
As mentioned in the initial post, some of the quirky/short legged/armed original springs could do with replacing but that really does require specifically made "short" springs, one or two have already been replaced - as can be seen - with M. L-A ones. The leather 'dots' on the bellows are temporary repairs for 3 ? 'pin-prick' holes and the bellows are otherwise very sturdy, typically Jeffries quality and entirely functional and "sound" in operation. The lack of access to a 'skiver' & lock-downs have limited making a more subtle & sensitive solution.
Enquiries with respected sources suggest that a valuation of £3.5k is "realistic" and that £3k is very much a Dealer valuation pre retail % "mark up", which as a private seller, we prefer to 'relieve' a potential buyer from having to spend. It allows for an outlay for a new owner for any necessary work "within" the overall 'potential' value of the instrument and as always, I am amenable to posting abroad and working with potential buyers to mediate costs the involved within my "end".
This was not intended as an "Advert", so not supported by a 'price' or images, but for the sake of clarity given your post which does imply some criticism of the instrument, I enclose said images. We are hopeful of finding someone to play it to assist the sale in early July at the latest and am in no great hurry to sell before then.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnFzxogKXoLYgVFGI_rNOf8O7Cb5?e=WtYBwa
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My wife has decided that, despite my best efforts and proactive encouragement she does not want to learn to play the Concertina. I am frustrated because she 'can' but really does not have the time or, more sadly, the inclination to work at it.
I can not play it beyond some very simple 'dotting' of notes to approximate a tune and couldn't if I wanted to due to the same finger/hand problems that led to me putting the Crane down.
It is a Jeffries Anglo 39k, it is in A/E ( not Ab/Eb) tuning and the buttons appear to be laid out in the same pattern, the requisite steps apart, as a standard Jeffries 39k in C/G as per the Net layouts.
It came to us entirely unplayable and it has been cleaned, re-valved, re-padded etc and now plays nicely ( within the constraints of my ability ). I would really like to have a 'promo' video of it being played so as to advertise it "warts and all" in the hope of getting a fair/realistic price for it, which would end up satisfying all parties involved.
I "know" it might benefit from a few new springs, so may benefit from further investment in the hands of one of the 'top fettlers'.....I know it is in "Society of the Arts" tuning ( like John Lennons guitars ) at A=444......,which I do not find discordant when played with instruments in 440hz ( but I do have no ear for music! )......I "believe" and have been supported by the views of others that the bellows, whilst un- gilded and without 'fancy' papers are 'original' and I know that A/E tuning is rare in Jeffries, but not unheard of - an experienced member has one too. It may well have been a singers instrument or for Chapel use originally.
I did have it played by an 'improver' Anglo player at the weekend, but the Jeffries layout and extra buttons was a little confounding for them initially, although it led to a nice rendition of the Cheshire Waltz once they had it sorted, but not really a 'video'able level one.
The long and the short is I am wondering if there are any players in any of the 'title' areas, who, with the easing of regulations would be prepared to meet and give it a run out for us.....We are Worcs/Glos for this week, then down South for several.....
PM is fine......
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I know from a bit of Melodeon buying via Ebay.De that some sellers are very reluctant to sell to (specifically ) Brazil due to posting problems.....mind you, even pre January, as many were reluctant to sell to the Uk
The CITES issue is a worry.....but it depends how - to some extent - you describe the item and how specific you ( or anyone else can be about the nature of the "Rosewood" and it's origins ( or otherwise ? ). There isn't an infinite amount of space on the form and by the time you have written, "steel, leather, felt, card, wood - hard"......you may not have space for 'rose'..... and I doubt anyone would have the expertise to identify it from the numerous similar perfectly legitimate timbers out there without scientific tests ?
That is not to suggest that supporting the trade in any illegally felled/protected Dalbergia Sp. should be supported or encouraged, but when the 'sample' is 100 years ( or so ) old some restrictions are a sledgehammer to crack a nut/legume.....
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A random search of the 'Date my Lachenal' thread suggests Mccann 2184, dates to 1903. There isn't much of a gap twixt the two so probably within a year or so ( not knowing if 2184 would have been Jan or Dec production ? )
Mccann/Crane serials supposedly conjoined at 2700 (Mccann's) in 1910.
A deeper search of the Lachenal dating thread might reveal a closer comparator but it's 14 pages long! or one can guess at the maths?
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As something of a 'nearly' one-off, would it be likely that Lachenal 'slotted' it in with the rising Mccann serial numbers ? Dowright's comments below would put it somewhere slightly younger than the Mccann & Crane serials being merged ?
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Your situation is a little different to the "new" issue of importing from the EU into the Uk, because there are no "new" rules, as such, for importing from SA ( or the USA / Oz / Japan etc ) The rules are still "the rules" that they were before 01/01. The "standard" International Form for Customs is a CN23 ( at that size/value ) but there is some info. to suggest that SA to UK uses a Form PP4, which may be the same in basic layout.
https://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/CN23.pdf
Either way, it should come with a Customs Tariff Number and description of the item, so it's odd that DHL asking anything about what is in the parcel of the recipient ( rather than the sender ) whose duty it is to make the declarations.
Either way, the Charge would be on the value ( given it's value ) and to be expected?
The 3 year "question" relates to a "Return of Goods" option....
so not one that would ever be available on a vintage instrument.
So, it all sort of makes sense.
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On 3/31/2021 at 9:51 PM, Richard Mellish said:
I am back in contact with Donovan in South Africa and will probably be buying the D/A box from him.
https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/23598-wheatstone-40-button-anglo-for-sale/Does anyone know whether I am likely to be charged VAT when it arrives in the UK? Does the fact that it was originally made in the UK make any difference?
It will make no odds that it was made in the Uk, and VAT will no doubt be charged given the value at a rate of 20%. The "balance" in the process is to weigh the "valuation" against the known VAT charge and the risk of loss/damage in the value declared on the CN23. ie. do you want to take a 20% value "risk" ? on it getting here in one piece compared to what you agree as the purchase price / your personal moral view of the cost of Concertinas ( as opposed to what they are worth ) and how the tax system works ? If you discount the purchase price to the value of 20% on the CN23, when you pay the VAT it will be a net '0' equation. I think Ciaran suggested there may be a loophole for Antiques - which may be a whole new 'wormhole' to go down, but if it is a wormhole with 20% of some £k at the bottom it may be worth diving into! ......not that a 1950's one would qualify probably.
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"We are making life simpler and fairer for all." Apparently it has been introduced to counter millions ( if not billions ) of Euro's worth of EU ( and no doubt Uk ) wide tax evasion via online sales.
The Uk introduced - supposedly - the process on 01/01, early, so as not to have to tweak the rules again 7 months after leaving the EU.
Having said that, I have received quite a few parcels from the EU in these first three months, all OMP purchases, mostly via Ebay FR/DE/IT. None have had any indication on the packaging to indicate VAT paid at source, none have indicated OMP purchase, none have initiated any VAT charge or 'handling' in GB Customs. I have been fairly careful to keep the declared value under the £135/€150 value, on all bar one occasion it has been and I took the 'loss' risk on the one that wasn't ( it was only just over ). The lack of interest as stuff is coming through Customs suggests they are either too busy to bother chasing the VAT for now or, until the EU start imposing the new OMP process, the Uk has only paid lip service to the supposed change?
Ebay is supposedly taking the VAT on behalf of Uk Gov for EU OMP purchases since 01.01 and some listing show a price and state "+20% VAT", but when payment is called for, there is no 20% 'hike', which I don't understand. Whether it is because I am logged in via the DE, IT, FR page, in German/Italian/French, I don't know.
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In due course...... I have some Amboyna veneer that I can forwards 'Gratis' if the buyer would like to blend some in.....
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Mike's answer to the button cleaning problem is probably the best answer, ie. replace them ! but, if you wanted you could try making a strong/thick "paste" from Bi-carbonate of Soda or Baking Powder and water. I have had some success with this.
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A second 'vote' for Transferwise....not necessarily relevant to a US / Uk transaction, but as far as European Banks are concerned, post 01/01, many are adding charges for £ to € transfers which have caught me out recently ( for those not using Paypal ) Transferwise avoids these by all accounts.
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I must say, in respect only of Ireland/ROI to the Uk, there is some distinctly confusing advice regarding "export" because of their "special relationship" with the North, wherein they seem to be sharing VAT status.
Read at face value, the implications of much of this text (link below) suggest's exports to the (rest of) the Uk DO require (RO)Irish VAT to be charged and Import VAT when arriving in the Uk.
That makes no sense and the fact that OMP's aren't even mentioned ( or the €150 limit ) suggests the information is questionable or outdated/pre Deal, to me.
I hesitate to suggest that anyone read all of the next link.....but it seems to be the case that on ( or just before ) 01/01 the Uk generated swathes of accurate, if sometimes hasty and /or complicated, 'Post-Brexit' information. At the same time much of Europe left the 'pre 01/01 information "live" which tries to cover No Deal and Deal, because no one was quite sure. The link below seems to suggest it is one such.
http://brexitlegal.ie/vat-on-goods-hard-brexit-scenario/
Reading this - at face value - not having regard for the fact that a deal was thrashed out, it too suggests a possible 'double VAT' hit. Then you have to 'get past' the Business to Business interactions, ignoring the Hard Brexit/No Deal angle, but eventually the pertinent section appears to be ......
Exports to UK
A zero rate of VAT applies to goods exported from the European Union. This will apply to the sale of goods to the United Kingdom after Brexit. It must be proved that the goods have been dispatched directly out of the EU by the seller to a purchaser established outside the state.Evidence of supply must be available.
In the case of goods carried on the trader;s own vehicles the export notification message issued to the exporter for customs purposes is usually used. In the case of carriage by sea the bill of lading certificate of shipment or shipping advice notice is used proof. The certificate of posting may be used in the case of postal sales. In the case of goods exported by air, the air waybill or other equivalent information may be used
Import VAT and Brexit
Traders who are below the VAT registration threshold or are in a VAT exempt business must pay import VAT and and may not reclaim it later. The procedures are the same as customs duty.
(Next irrelevant post Deal ?? In the absence of new arrangements with UK, imports from the UK by unregistered persons to private persons exempt businesses and sub-threshold businesses are subject to immediate payment of VAT in Ireland rather than payment of VAT in the place of supply in this case United Kingdom. Potentially the cause of Irish VAT charge confusion from the previous Website )
The supply from the UK would be exempt. The sale and dispatch out of the UK must be proved to reclaim UK VAT.
UK Perspective Post Brexit
Exports from Ireland to the UK will be subject to the zero rate of VAT in Ireland as exports. They will be subject to UK VAT as imports.
Where UK businesses import goods from the EU the UK government proposes to introduce postponed accounting for import VAT for VAT registered businesses in the UK. A guarantee is likely to be required. In this case, businesses would be able to account for import VAT on their VAT return rather than payment at point of entry at the border. Customs declarations and payment of other duties may still be required where applicable. They may also be deferred under a guarantee.
When UK businesses export goods to EU businesses they will continue to be zero rated. EU sales lists will no longer be required in the absence of agreement for UK sales.U K businesses exporting to the EU must obtain evidence that the goods have left the UK in order to justify the zero rating of the supply for UK purposes. UK businesses will continue to be able to claim VAT refunds from EU states using the procedure for non-EU businesses.
Under current EU rules, goods entering the EU will be subject to VAT and (and customs duties in some cases) in the EU country of import. In some cases VAT may be chargeable at the border. The particular position will be determined by the status of the buyer, the nature of the goods and the rules of the country concerned, which however have been largely harmonised.
Low Value Relief
The present low Value consignment relief will apply to goods entering the UK from the EU. In principle goods entering the UK sent by overseas businesses will be subject to VAT (where as in most cases, VAT is chargeable.
It is proposed in the case of parcels valued up to £135 that a technology-based solution will allow VAT to be collected from the overseas business seller. Overseas businesses will be expected to register with HMRC and account for VAT when due. A unique identifier will accompany parcel sent to the UK.
On goods worth more than £135 sent in parcels the UK will collect VAT from UK recipients in accordance with current procedures in respect of third country suppliers.
As per my previous, I see no "Unique Identifier" on any parcel/envelope I have received since 01/01 from the EU.
Given how difficult it is (was) to find reliable information in the Uk ( to whom the changes matter ) it is probably no surprise that in some instances 'some' in the EU, including ROI are having to wade through 'sketchy', 'mis' or outdated information and giving up!
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On 2/18/2021 at 9:53 AM, JimmyG said:
I cancelled an order from ROI a few weeks ago (not concertina related). I consulted with the retailer and they confirmed that, being above £135, I would have to pay VAT on its arrival to the tune of some £300 extra. Obviously that is a choice left to the buyer, but many of them are being taken by surprise.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. An order for Goods from ROI/EU meriting a £300 VAT charge on entry to the Uk should have been Zero rated in ROI for sale to an Non EU country. You only pay VAT once, you don't get charged VAT as an EU duty then again as Uk duty. There should be no built in "extra" to that degree ?
Yes there may be a small 'extra' VAT charge on the carriage costs and a small handling charge and carriage costs have gone up - €10 on a typical €25 parcel pre Brexit ( from Germany ), ie. now around €34.
Without knowing the specifics it is difficult to be precise, but, the bottom line is that if +/- £300 'extra', if a VAT charge is due on arrival in the Uk, then the price of the Goods supplied by the Irish company should have been Zero rated, ie. no VAT charged at source, discounted to that same VAT value at point of sale from the list price "inc of VAT".
Evidence is that many EU companies have not been given much insight into how to address post 01/01 sales to the Uk. Some have started refusing to sell to the Uk re the VAT issues even under the £150 Euro limit, but it appears they could still sell, and Buyers could still pay the VAT on entry into the Uk, as we do with some non OMP purchases from the State's.
Truth is......I suspect most, if not all, would slip through anyway currently as there has been nothing on several parcels I have received from France and Germany, since 01/01, to suggest "Duty Paid" or "Duty Due", nothing to indicate OMP purchase, either, although they have been.
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I suspect Jeffries may have had the same search.....and gave up 🙃
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Only this......
Perhaps 'borders' moved post-39 and again post-45 leading to Factories/Makers moving State with them ?
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Re. the question of submitting instruments for repair ( from a 3rd Country to the Uk ) and the tax / Duty issues, this may apply, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-to-pay-less-duty-on-goods-you-import-for-specific-uses although it does not detail how tax issues are addressed. It makes no sense that items submitted to a Uk repairer for return to the owner should have to have a 'purchase' tax / Import Duty paid if the item has no prospect of staying in the Uk, although obviously the work would.
I think the 'inventive' could probably manage the P/X process under the same regime were it to apply.
There is a Uk to 3rd Country "outward processing", which is almost certainly mirrored for 3rd Countries to the Uk, which also appears to be relevant, especially where guarantee's apply.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-outward-processing-to-process-or-repair-your-goods
This lifted from a UK University Site.....re OPR .....
Guidance on ... re-importing goods which have been returned for repair
If you have to return previously imported goods to a supplier outside the European Union (EU), you will need to take specific steps to make sure that you don't pay VAT and Import Duty again when the items are returned to you. The process for this is called Outward Processing Relief (OPR):
- When you return an item to the supplier, you must inform the exporting freight agent that the item is travelling under temporary export for repairs to be carried out, and following repair the item will be returned to the UK
- The exporting freight agent should then complete an OPR form on behalf of the University department, or give you instructions on how to complete the OPR application form yourself
- When the goods are re-imported the completed OPR form is used as proof that VAT and import duty were paid on the item when it was originally imported. This ensures that the cost of any VAT and duty is waived on re-importation
- If repaired goods are not returned in one single consignment, then the agent must be informed of this to enable them to inform HMRC who will note the quantity of goods being imported and the quantity which remain to be imported. (This paperwork must be presented to HMRC again when the next consignment is imported.)
What if I forget to make the OPR statement?
It is not possible to complete the OPR statement in retrospect. If it isn't completed when you send the goods for repair then HMRC will assume the export is final. When the goods are returned to you you would then have to pay the VAT and Import Duty again (ie twice).
What it the item can't be repaired?
If, after export, the supplier decides to replace the faulty goods instead of repairing them, then VAT and Import Duty will be charged on the full value of all new replacements. -
16 minutes ago, Paul Gleeson said:
There are internationally used codes to identify items for the purposes of duty. 9205 90 10 Accordions and other similar instruments. In this case the duty is 3.7% (The same level of duty applies to EU countries).
I think you will find the Uk Import Duty may now be 2%, not the EU level of 3.7%,
The commodity code for importing is 9205901000.
Goods are subject to Value added tax (20.00 %).
Importing from outside the UK is subject to a third country duty of 2.00 % unless subject to other measures.
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Seth - it comes in, in the EU on 01/07/2021 it was always coming down the line for the Uk if we stayed "in" the EU and we just opted to go early rather than have two changes in the space of a few months.
I do not believe from all I can find 'here' that it is ( or probably ever will be ) "mandatory" for non Uk/EU businesses to have to register. If you simply book and post the parcel via USPS/Fed Ex I suspect the parcel and Import Duty will manage itself, ie. it will arrive, Duty will be charged, on arrival and when paid it will be delivered.
It will be held in Customs, until the Duty is paid, that is how it works, but it will not be a surprise. It reads to me as if they are trying to 'steamroller' you as a business into signing up for the VAT process unnecessarily, albeit potentially usefully and if I were the buyer and knew what to expect, I would take the "pay Duty on arrival" option BUT I would need to be happy that I knew that I would be paying 20 / 22% + carriage and a Handling Fee. This has been the case with many USA to UK transactions for 'ever' from non VAT reg'd companies - Columbia Organ Leathers being a case in point. "A" way to manage the situation for the 'savvy' and non risk-averse is via the declared (insured !!?? ) value of the goods depending on your perspective.
It will undoubtedly be easier for the Uk Revenue, ParcelForce/Royal Mail/Customs and Buyers IF non Uk sellers sign up to be reg'd for the VAT because it will reduce the volume of parcels the Uk has to manage/process/administer, so it is a positive thing to do if the volume of goods you are processing justifies it.
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As I 'read' it it is "an" option to become Regd. for (Uk)VAT and to charge 'Import Duty' at source and pay the VAT to the Uk, or it is "an" option to ship and for the Import Duty (at VAT level ) to be charged at the Port of Entry as is often the case?
The benefit of registering for VAT ( to your customer) being that the item is shipped "Duty Paid", so they do not get stung with handling charges/delay's/hassle etc when the Duty is claimed this side of the 'Pond'. The 20% is paid as part of the purchase price.
Typically that is why 'most' Uk purchases via USA Ebay have the duty incorporated into the purchase transaction, ie. Bid price, + carriage price + Duty ( which USA Ebayers probably don't even see ? ). When those purchases arrive here they come without the "We have a parcel, you owe us £x before we will deliver" message.
If I were a business, I would weigh up how many transactions I fulfil to the UK and whether for the sake of the £20 or so extra charge to the buyer here it was worth the trouble ( my guess is it would not be in just a few cases )
This "may" be a misread of the new rules by USPS and it may be worth looking at FedEx etc to see if they have a different attitude if USPS won't relax their position?
Either way, it would be good to know how you resolve it ?
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A Duet Concertina player may be along in a minute......😉 🙃 .....it will make perfect sense to them..... even in 'A'
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4 hours ago, alex_holden said:
I don't really understand EORI numbers. Should I have one, as a non-VAT-registered sole trader exporting goods from the UK? Nobody has asked me for one yet.
https://www.sage.com/en-gb/blog/eori-number-trade-brexit/#does-anchor-link
Travelling to UK from EU - dealing with customs
in General Concertina Discussion
Posted
The danger as I see it, this early in the process is that there is a lot of room for "interpretation". Even in the Uk advice there are "you may be able to" comments, which tends to suggest it could be on the whim of the Officials as to what they will, or won't pass, unchallenged.
There is Uk Gov advice that (even) working musicians can carry their personal instruments through Borders without a Carnet as long as they are in their travelling vehicle and that foot/air passengers certainly can ( by all accounts), yet at the same time other text suggests that for working musicians "kit" carried in vehicles needs a Carnet.
Whether someone in a Uniform accepts that it is your personal, non business possession remains a matter for the individual judgement. Trying to explain the difference between carrying it to play in Sessions for "fun" and a "Gig", which may imply business, may yet lead to some friction.
I don't think many people will have any practical experience yet and it will be useful to get insights - good & bad. My experience previously, under the old EU/DEFRA rules was with small livestock. They were - or should/could have been pretty onerous, as bad as those now around musical instruments, even though we were all in the same regime. In practice, no one bothered! It was probably because it was too complicated and DEFRA spent more time providing advice on how to "work around the rules" than work within them.