Comparing Concertina Types

[Boney]

I've been thinking about different types of concertinas. As I've said in another thread, I've spent most of my time learning single-line melodies on the Anglo concertina, or simple songs with minimal accompaniment (simple chords mostly on the rows I'm playing), and only a few ornaments. But I'm starting to try to branch out to fuller arrangements. It's fun playing single-line stuff, but it's not really the concertina's forte, I think. It's not so interesting to listen to. I do like the Irish style, with a good amount of ornaments and occasional simple chords or bass notes, but while I like Irish music, it's only a small fraction of what I'm interested in. I'm more interested in early ragtime, old-time, and traditional songs. I'd also like to play simple classical stuff, waltzes, and the like. Also Northumbrian tunes, klezmer, Swedish...you get the idea. I very much like the more fully-accompanied "Harmonic" style of Anglo playing, but it does seem that a duet would be more suited for varied styles with more complex harmonies. While working out some arrangements, I've come across some really finger-twisting dilemmas on the C/G Anglo! The G/D would probably be better. I've also been thinking of trying chromatic button accordion, but the simpler, sparser sound of the duet or Anglo concertina actually appeals to me more. I suppose that could be accomplished with a lighter touch on the bass chords on a dry-tuned accordion, and more usage of single-note basses. But the small size of the concertina, as well as the unique sound and look, is very appealing to me.

 

So, I've been looking at the different styles of duet concertinas and comparing them. I decided to compare the ranges of the Hayden and MacCann systems side-by-side (using the proposed Morse Hayden layouts posted a year or two ago). Then I added English. And G/D Anglo. And ended making this graphic (click for larger version). The left hand is on the top staff, the right hand on the bottom. It does help me visualize the difference in ranges quickly. Although I'm not sure if I'm any closer to deciding on whether I should try a new system or not. But, just in case someone might learn something from this, here it is:

 

Edited February 6, 2006 by Boney

[JimLucas]

I decided to compare the ranges of the Hayden and MacCann systems side-by-side (using the proposed Morse Hayden layouts posted a year or two ago). Then I added English. And G/D Anglo.

Hey, don't stop now!

 

Important others are the Crane duets, tenor-treble and baritone Englishes, and smaller Maccanns.

 

Also, I thnk that including the 70-button Hayden is misleading, at least for anyone who doesn't plan to build their own.

[Stephen Mills]

The Hayden drawings seem almost theoretical, as Jim notes. What are the Hayden options these days: Stagi (46 key), the Bob Tedrow 52 key (which I play), waiting a very long time for Steve Dickinson (? keys), eventually the Morse (55 buttons?). Am I missing someone? So in terms of 2006 options, I would say the Hayden choices are Stagi 46 c0 to d3, missing the low C# and D#, and the Tedrow 52 button, which has those notes and a few extra overlap notes.

 

As I understand it, Rich Morse seems to favor using extra buttons to create a wraparound keyboard, so you can keep the standard patterns for another key or 2 and don’t have to make those big stretches, as for a Cmin triad. Personally, I’d trade the low C# and D# on the right side (highly useful as Jax notes) for a high D# and E, which I need often. I think the extended range is the great advantage of the traditional systems over duets, although of course there a great many other factors as well.

 

And while you're at it, Bob, how about a Venetian blind type of baffles on the left side, which can be engaged with your LH thumb, for damping of the bass line on the fly?

 

 

	   LEFT HAND			||		RIGHT HAND
						||
Bb  C					   ||  Bb  C   D
 F   G   A   B			 ||	F   G   A   B   C#
Bb (C)  D   E   F#  G#	  ||  Bb  C   D   E   F#  G#
 F   G   A   B   C#  D#	||	F   G   A   B   C#  D#
C   D   E   F#  G#	  ||	 (C)  D   E   F#  G#
			  C#  D#	||					C#  D#
						||

Tedrow (shown)  52 buttons
Stagi 46 buttons LH c-b1 RH c1-d3

[m3838]

One particular disadvantage of a CBA (or chromatic button accordion) is the large size.

Not that it's heavy or bulky etc., although this may be a problem for some, but the large size of bellows, that makes bellows articulation a bit less... mm... articulate.

It takes much more to learn proper bellows technique on a large accordion, I think.

On the other hand, it can provide ultimate sulutioin for playing in all keys, all kind of music, with many voices, with and without basses, chords etc.

I noticed that Anglo provides the lever for more interesting harmony arrangement, than any other system. It's like a guitar: here you play melody, now chord, then some oompa, and then some double notes.

If only there were double voiced octave tuned Anglos.

[JimLucas]

I noticed that Anglo provides the lever for more interesting harmony arrangement, than any other system.

More than the duets? I don't think so.

[Jody Kruskal]

It takes much more to learn proper bellows technique on a large accordion, I think.

On the other hand, it can provide ultimate sulutioin for playing in all keys, all kind of music, with many voices, with and without basses, chords etc.

I noticed that Anglo provides the lever for more interesting harmony arrangement, than any other system. It's like a guitar: here you play melody, now chord, then some oompa, and then some double notes.

If only there were double voiced octave tuned Anglos.

 

All bellows instruments require study of bellows technique. Dynamics are all you have for expression. Therein lies the life and breath of the music.

 

I agree with your guitar/Anglo analogy. Very well put... "here you play melody, now chord, then some oompa, and then some double notes." all with the melody going or not. What makes this so possible on the Anglo is also the Anglos main problem... its limitations. The drawbacks of the Anglo are many, only a few keys, limited accompaniment note choices, a puzzle to figure out how to coordinate push/pull and right/left. Yet within these limitations, or even because of them, the Anglo is an amazingly expressive machine that can put a deep level of music at your fingertips.

 

Boney, all of the styles you mentioned "I'm more interested in early ragtime, old-time, and traditional songs. I'd also like to play simple classical stuff, waltzes, and the like. Also Northumbrian tunes, klezmer, Swedish...you get the idea" are great on the Anglo G/D. What you also get in the Anglo alone is the rhythmic punch and drive of the push/pull system. This system seems to enforce a physical connection with the rest of the body that makes the music dance. You can play that way on other instruments, but the Anglo seems to go there naturally.

 

Good luck on your choice.

 

Jody

[JimLucas]

This system [the anglo] seems to enforce a physical connection with the rest of the body that makes the music dance. You can play that way on other instruments, but the Anglo seems to go there naturally.

Maybe this should be a separate Topic, but the above suddenly leaves me wondering: Do you know any anglo players for whom this is not true? I.e., in spite of the in-and-out, they simply can't make it produce a good rhythm.

 

I'm reminded of my own early tries with the anglo, where my difficulty in coordinating changes of buttons with the changes of bellows direction left me with a "rhythm" that could at best be desribed as "irregular". Then there are those (I've previously told a story of a spoons "player") who simply seem to have no sense or concept of rhythm, no matter how much help they get.

[m3838]

Jody:

"All bellows instruments require study of bellows technique. "

 

Me:

Yes, obviously. I just noticed that large accordions have very different behaviour.

They are easier to play smoothly and even, but more difficult to become "intimate" with.

I spent 4 years with CBA, and was not doing too bad, particularly on keeping the constant bellows pressure, something that is absolutely essential. But my buttonbox playing is more lively.

 

Jim:

"More than the duets? I don't think so."

 

Me:

Yes, more than the duets. Availability plays tricks on people. With Anglo you can't fall asleep, and it "provides" for more interesting ways of thinking. Not that Anglo players "are" more interestingly thinking people.

So far, comparing the two, I heard more interesting arrangements from Anglo players.

Sometimes I feel like they are tossing about in panic and grabbing this note, and that note, while trying to keep the rhythm. Reminds me of a sailing ship in unstable weather.

(I LOVE sailing ships, but nature gave me motion sickness. IT'S UNFAIRE)

[Richard Morse]

Personally, I’d trade the low C# and D# on the right side (highly useful as Jax notes) for a high D# and E, which I need often.

In addition to the extra enharmonics, ours WILL have that high D# and E, which I also need often.

[Theodore Kloba]

So, I've been looking at the different styles of duet concertinas and comparing them.

Here's a similar chart for the Chemnitzer that I made a few years back: Chromatic Scale (PDF)

To clarify the meaning: 1st page is draw, 2nd page is press. If there's a symbol above a note, then that's the right hand button that will produce the note for that bellows direction. Symbols below the notes indicate the left hand button for the note. (Those symbols are engraved on the ends of the instrument.)

If only there were double voiced octave tuned Anglos.

There's one hiding inside my bandonion. Seriously, though, I think some of the builders in Germany still make them. The double-voiced Stagis are probably unison only, but I could be wrong.

It's like a guitar: here you play melody, now chord, then some oompa, and then some double notes.

I agree with your guitar/Anglo analogy. Very well put... "here you play melody, now chord, then some oompa, and then some double notes." all with the melody going or not. What makes this so possible on the Anglo is also the Anglos main problem... its limitations.

I agree too. There's some genius to the choice of notes on both instruments.

 

Any instrument has its "limitations", e.g. if you play trombone, you have to learn to appreciate your range of timbres and flexibility of articulation rather than lament your inability to play 5-tone chords.

[Richard Morse]

On the other hand, it [a CBA] can provide ultimate sulutioin for playing in all keys, all kind of music, with many voices, with and without basses, chords etc.

Have you tried doing much left hand work with a CBA? If it has a typical stradella bass, it's very very limited. If it has a bassetti bass (free bass) things are better as the NOTES are there, but playing them is incredibly difficult as you have to continually move your hand up and down the bass side as the octaves are so far apart (makes bass/chord style of back up extremely difficult). Of course that's why they invented "converters", but now we're talking a 30# box....

[JimLucas]

I noticed that Anglo provides the lever for more interesting harmony arrangement, than any other system.

More than the duets? I don't think so.

Yes, more than the duets. Availability plays tricks on people. With Anglo you can't fall asleep, and it "provides" for more interesting ways of thinking. Not that Anglo players "are" more interestingly thinking people.

So far, comparing the two, I heard more interesting arrangements from Anglo players.

How much duet playing have you heard, to compare with anglo? If you've listened to all of Anglo International but not yet heard Duet International, then your comparison is extremely unequal, which is unfair. (I know that Duet International doesn't yet exist, but that's my point, in part. It's not valid to claim, "I haven't personally experienced it; therefor it doesn't/can't exist.")

 

By the way, have you heard Michael Hebbert play Jeffries duet, Jean Megly play the Crane, or David Cornell on the Maccann? Those are just three whose accomplishments are well beyond any duet playing on Henk's Tune Links page. (Sorry about not including names of any Hayden players, but I have yet to hear more than simple dance tunes on one. Which is not to say no one does more, just that in my limited experience I haven't yet heard it.)

[Theodore Kloba]

Have you tried doing much left hand work with a CBA? If it has a typical stradella bass, it's very very limited. If it has a bassetti bass (free bass) things are better as the NOTES are there, but playing them is incredibly difficult as you have to continually move your hand up and down the bass side as the octaves are so far apart (makes bass/chord style of back up extremely difficult). Of course that's why they invented "converters", but now we're talking a 30# box....

This is exactly what's kept me from getting a CBA. What do you think about using a Hayden/Wicki layout on the left with a CBA on the right?

 

As weird as they are, the chemnitzer & bandoneon left hand layouts with chord tones in the center and bass notes around the periphery are another way to get around the problems.

[Boney]

Hey, don't stop now! [...] Also, I thnk that including the 70-button Hayden is misleading, at least for anyone who doesn't plan to build their own.

I'll probably add a few Cranes. I used the Hayden layouts proposed by Rich Morse a while back, just to get an idea for myself what they'd cover. I don't think I'd be satisfied with a 46-key Hayden or the smaller MacCanns, and didn't want the table to get too unweildy. But it looks like it's headed that way anyway, so...

 

in terms of 2006 options, I would say the Hayden choices are Stagi 46 c0 to d3, missing the low C# and D#, and the Tedrow 52 button, which has those notes and a few extra overlap notes.

Thanks, I hadn't run across a layout for the Tedrow Hayden, I'll add that. What size is the box on the Tedrow?

 

What makes this so possible on the Anglo is also the Anglos main problem... its limitations. The drawbacks of the Anglo are many, only a few keys, limited accompaniment note choices, a puzzle to figure out how to coordinate push/pull and right/left. Yet within these limitations, or even because of them, the Anglo is an amazingly expressive machine that can put a deep level of music at your fingertips. [...] What you also get in the Anglo alone is the rhythmic punch and drive of the push/pull system. This system seems to enforce a physical connection with the rest of the body that makes the music dance. You can play that way on other instruments, but the Anglo seems to go there naturally.

Yes, this could be a whole topic on its own. I've often wondered why so much playing on English, duets, and piano accordions seems "flat." Does the limitation of having different notes on push/pull force people to play in a certain way, or is a certain type of player more interested in driving rhythms attracted to those systems? Probably some of both. It is fun trying to puzzle out Anglo arrangements, but it's frustrating too! I'm sure I'll continue to play Anglo, I'm just still not sure if it'll be my "main" melody/harmony type instrument, I might want to explore more.

 

The G/D probably would make it more possible for me to play more "fully arranged" tunes with others, but for playing by myself, I can play exactly the same arrangements on C/G, and they'll just sound higher. Maybe I'll eventually get a G/D with several extra keys to make the arranging somewhat easier and more flexible.

 

Another difference with the Anglo that isn't talked about much is that your hands don't move a lot when you're playing. With two notes per button, I can play many tunes without shifting hand position at all, and when I do have to shift, it's usually just a finger here and there. That seems to match the way I like to play more than shifting my hands around a lot like a piano player (or duet player, presumably) does.

 

Yet another issue is the idea of an instrument becoming "intuitive." The Anglo doesn't seem intuitive to me, I have a hard time picking out tunes by ear. I sometime fumble for keys when my "muscle memory" fails me, it's like the chaotic layout causes a brain cramp, and I have a trainwreck. I really have to drill tunes a lot before I can play them at all. I play a bit of whistle (I've worked at it much less than concertina), and it's pretty intuitive, easier to pick out tunes on and just play. It seems an instrument like the chromatic button accordion (and probably the Hayden) would be more possible to learn intuitive playing on. The intervals are consistently mapped, so similar "gestures" produce similar results, even in different keys. That idea appeals to me a lot.

 

Availability plays tricks on people. With Anglo you can't fall asleep, and it "provides" for more interesting ways of thinking. Not that Anglo players "are" more interestingly thinking people. So far, comparing the two, I heard more interesting arrangements from Anglo players. Sometimes I feel like they are tossing about in panic and grabbing this note, and that note, while trying to keep the rhythm. Reminds me of a sailing ship in unstable weather.

Great analogy! That's what it feels like when I'm playing sometimes. And again, that "sparse" feel I like is enforced by the Anglo, you can't just throw in full chords or whatever somebody wrote on a piece of paper, as you said, "fall asleep." You have to listen, decide what works and what doesn't, try alternatives, and the like. Maybe that's the best reason for me to stick with the Anglo so far.

 

Maybe I'll keep playing the Anglo, and get something like a Hayden or CBA for more esoteric / classical / whatever stuff. And I'll continue to play some whistle, or maybe take up some other melody-only instrument for fun. Oh, and I'll keep playing a bit of percussion too, of course.

[Theodore Kloba]

So, I've been looking at the different styles of duet concertinas and comparing them.

Here is the 52-button chemnitzer converted (more or less) to your standard:

[m3838]

Boney:

"It seems an instrument like the chromatic button accordion...would be more possible to learn intuitive playing on."

 

Opposite from my expirience.

A Piano Accordion is more intuitive to me, at least melody playing (and intervals as well).

A Chromatic accordion, having diagonal layout, isn't very intuitive. It , agruably, is the only truly chromatic layout, but it is demanding for a novice.

 

Jim:

"How much duet playing have you heard, to compare with anglo?"

 

Not much. Perhabs I'm comparing apples to oranges, but that's my expirience.

But I heard many PA and CBA players, including russian bayan players, and Anglo arrangements, even coming from recreational players, still have more kink to them.

Perhabs they are less correct and uneven, and chords tend to be long and honky, but I like natural Anglo's syncopation of the lharmony and jumping from left to right.

 

Rich:

"Have you tried doing much left hand work with a CBA? If it has a typical stradella bass, it's very very limited."

 

You probably play some PA, Rich.

I took correspondence lessons from Gary Dahl, who teaches "Harmony Application".

(Highly recommend). His use of Stradella involves lot's of moving up/down the left side. It's very doable after some getting used to. You can play chromatic scale on Stradella, no problem. The only limitation is the "wrap around" feel of the scale. It's only one octave, but voiced in such way, that it tricks the listener.

My last piece was Chopin's prelude in Cmin, with counter melody on the bass.

The notes were tough, but it's the feel that I had the most difficulty with.

 

Jim:

"Do you know any anglo players for whom this is not true?"

 

I think I know why.

It's bellows reversals. Changing note with bellows and with just pushing another button feels very differently. One is afraid to be late with bellows reversals, and tends to do it quicker, underplaying the notes. Thus a line like: Taa-taa-taa, played like taa-ta-taa.

Also, if one is playing the oom-pa-pa, it likely to sound like oom-pa-PA, instead of OOM-pa-pa. That alone can contribute to lack of rhythm. Plus when one changes the bellows, one tends to leave too long of a pause, having choked feeling to the music, aggravating the "underplaying" of the notes.

I think it relates to EC too, when you change between the sides as compared to between adjuscent buttons. Different feel.

Smart people play with others, and dumb people play with metronome.

I'm among the latter.

[JimLucas]

Do you know any anglo players for whom this is not true?

I think I know why.

Huh? "Why" what? Non sequitur. That was a yes or no question.

[Richard Morse]

Have you tried doing much left hand work with a CBA? If it has a typical stradella bass, it's very very limited. If it has a bassetti bass (free bass) things are better as the NOTES are there, but playing them is incredibly difficult as you have to continually move your hand up and down the bass side as the octaves are so far apart (makes bass/chord style of back up extremely difficult). Of course that's why they invented "converters", but now we're talking a 30# box....

This is exactly what's kept me from getting a CBA. What do you think about using a Hayden/Wicki layout on the left with a CBA on the right?

I think that's a lot more flexible. We've made a few PA bass conversions from stradella and bassetti into Hayden bass which finger and play very nicely! Easy to do independent part lines as well as stride style accompaniment. Of course you're still talking about a single instrument with two different fingering systems. Better than it started out with, but imagine how nice it would be to have Hayden on both ends. Maybe something like the square Bastari 66 key Hayden (but with much higher quality)?

As weird as they are, the chemnitzer & bandoneon left hand layouts with chord tones in the center and bass notes around the periphery are another way to get around the problems.

What about the problem of being able to play in many keys easily?