English concertina "improvements"

[Stephen Chambers]

m3838 has occasionally proposed various changes that he would see as improvements to the design of the English concertina, though to me they seem (in toto) so radical as to be creating a new hybrid concertina with English fingering, rather than an "English concertina" per se. He put the following points to me a few days ago, in the The Single Reed Plate thread (which seems to have spiralled totally off course at the moment - I'll try and steer it back... ) :

 

So, a 2 finger "pinkie" rest can be shortened and made more comfortable for pinkie, does it not?

For those who play with 8 fingers, pinkie rest can be abolished and air button/lever added, because these players use more air, as they play bigger chords and accompaniment - is it not?

For pull/push bellows driven instrument handle is of outmost importance, is it not?

If so, it's location/balance/grip is number one priority, is it not? But is it's location/balance/grip optimal?

For playing sitting, as these players frequently do, round shape of instrument is not well suited, no?

There are good designs for EC handle, are there not? Same goes for all other types.

So why most of players want this?

It's because they want this,

although this is faster.

And has since protested to me:

 

… you passed by all of my questions about possible improvements of concertina. All of them.

To which my reply follows:

 

Michael,

 

Are your points questions you'd like answering then? I took them for statements, or at least rhetorical questions - I guess that's because of the way they are worded, with that emphatic "- is it not?" at the end of them.

 

Anyway, I have no wish to get drawn into an extended debate with you on the subject of "possible improvements" - something that I personally have neither the interest in, nor the time, nor the energy for at the moment (in case you hadn't noticed, my posts have been both few and very short over the last few months, which has been due to illness - and the reason it's taking me 2 or 3 days, and all my time and energy, to try and answer you as it is).

 

But I will say that as far as I can see, what you are proposing isn't so much an "improved English concertina", as a totally different instrument using English-concertina fingering. Now there's nothing wrong with that as such, as long as that's understood, but I see no advantage to it over the original design. By definition it will have a larger cross-sectional area to accommodate all those accordion reeds in a (bulkier) square shape, which in itself will make it harder to play, as will the fat buttons (that I think you've mentioned before) and the lack of finger rests, so I guess it may well need an "improved handle" to manage it. But I'm afraid that personally I'd see it more as this than this.

 

Oh, and if I want a square, accordion-reeded (Binci of course!) instrument with fat buttons, I'll buy another one of these instead thanks (like I did this one, at the end of January):

 

 

Most of us seem perfectly happy with it as it is, thank you.

Most is not all, and most of "us" suck. Most of us don't get to the point where design holds us back. Ask pros, whould they like to see such and such improvement? Would they like to try and give a feedback? Then we'll be talking.

Many of “the pros” are active members of this forum, or at least read it, but I don’t see any of them clamouring for more information or adopting any of these “improvements” yet - and nobody's preventing them from doing so! But so far they seem not to have such issues.

 

Let's open this up for general discussion, and invite their comments, and everybody else's.

 

I base my opinion on comparison between dynamics expressed in Pauline de Snoo (professional) and Goran Rahm's (amateur) videos.

Goran's are much more expressive.

I'm not going to get drawn into a discussion of the merits of different concertina players, especially when I've not heard either of them play (and they both read this forum), but I believe both have Wheatstone Æolas - which should be capable of considerable dynamic expression that doesn’t need any “improved handle” to bring out, and I can assure you (from personal experience) that some top-quality ones made for professional players (like Alf Edwards') can have a quite staggering dynamic range.

 

It feels that it is easier for him to do so. He claims it's the result of improved handle. Why would I doubt it?

Because (to use your own argument), that's only hearsay?

 

How about fitting similar "handles" to your own concertina? Or better still, get yourself a really good Æola and try that same instrument out with, and without them - then report back to us of your findings.

 

I'm not talking about who's playin is better, only in who's hands Concertina begins to "sing" in unexpected way.

Why Regondi's of course!

 

That which raises Signor Regondi above other performers, is the sentiment and expression by which he assimilates his instrument to the human voice, and

sings

in a manner to rival the efforts obtained by the greatest singers. The

cantabile

passages remind us, by their breadth of tone and deep feeling, of Rubini, or Paganini, or Ernst, in similar passages on the violin.

[m3838]

But I will say that as far as I can see, what you are proposing isn't so much an "improved English concertina", as a totally different instrument using English-concertina fingering.

It brings us back to discussion of what's a concertina. Bandoneon is a concertina. Chemnitzer too. Is single voice Bandoneon more concertina then double voice Wheatstone English? Is size a decisive factor in whether an object is a Concertina? It's, I think, irrelevant, just as Harry Geuns' hybrid bandoneon using Chromatic accordion layout is a Bandoneon and is not a rare bird in Bandonion schools of Buenos Aires. It is a hearsay, I heard if from a guy, who has one, has been to BA and has pretty decent tango band.

 

Oh, and if I want a square, accordion-reeded (Binci of course!) instrument with fat buttons, I'll buy another one of these instead thanks (like I did this one, at the end of January):

I don't care if it's square or triangled. I only stating that fitting 4 sided accordion reeds in 4 sided (not necessarily square) cabinet is easier and leaves less unused space. I also realize that round shape of Concertina is not the fancy of early builders, but a result of principle: "shape is subject to content", good one to be followed. They believed radial location of reeds will produce even tone.

 

Many of “the pros” are active members of this forum

Yea, it's the reason for the whole conversation. I haven't heard professional concertina playing, that was on par with .... etc. Hence the suggestions of handle and what not. But you seem to be happy with current level of playing. Good for you. Why would I argue any more?

 

I can assure you (from personal experience) that some top-quality ones made for professional players (like Alf Edwards') can have a quite staggering dynamic range

Look above. Somehow I missed it in 99% of performances.

 

It feels that it is easier for him to do so. He claims it's the result of improved handle. Why would I doubt it?

Because (to use your own argument), that's only hearsay?

Because you can ask him. I did. I'm convinced.

 

How about fitting similar "handles" to your own concertina? Or better still, get yourself a really good Æola and try that same instrument out with, and without them - then report back to us of your findings.

Time?

 

I'm not talking about who's playin is better, only in who's hands Concertina begins to "sing" in unexpected way.

Why Regondi's of course

 

Haven't heard yet. But what I have heard, leaves statement below unsupported.

 

That which raises Signor Regondi above other performers, is the sentiment and expression by which he assimilates his instrument to the human voice, and

sings

in a manner to rival the efforts obtained by the greatest singers. The

cantabile

passages remind us, by their breadth of tone and deep feeling, of Rubini, or Paganini, or Ernst, in similar passages on the violin.

 

Sounds like over optimistic eager-beaver kinda patting on the shoulder. Only similar passages on the violin are still been played today by new Runinis, Paganinis or Ernsts, and EC is where it is.

Anglo, esp. adapted to Irish folk music, etched a niche, so it's no longer compared to the fiddle or accordion. And it's only going to get more advanced, but all other genres on Concertina suffer lack of something. I think it's the way it's held. It's like, having big chest, breath through thin straw. Only my opinion, based on listening. I quickly get tired of on/off concertina voice. It blends well with violin and accordion, and I don't understand why violin and accordion both reached unimaginable levels of virtuosity, leaving Concertina way behind. I'm looking for inspiration and respect, not strange looks from people and questions like:"why then have you chosen this funny accordion instead of real one?"

So there we are.

Wish you quick recovering.

We too, had to rush our daughter to hospital with severe impetigo. It's the third case in 2 years. I'm so tired of this. OK, I'm off to bandage her hands now.

Edited June 5, 2009 by m3838

[Stephen Chambers]

But I will say that as far as I can see, what you are proposing isn't so much an "improved English concertina", as a totally different instrument using English-concertina fingering.

It brings us back to discussion of what's a concertina. Bandoneon is a concertina. Chemnitzer too. Is single voice Bandoneon more concertina then double voice Wheatstone English? Is size a decisive factor in whether an object is a Concertina? It's, I think, irrelevant...

... and so do I!

 

If you read the first paragraph of my post again, you should realise you're arguing against something that I'm not saying, but I do feel you seem to want to change everything that defines an "English concertina" to us, except the fingering system - and that was already in use (on Wheatstone's symphonion) before the first concertina was ever made anyway.

 

When I used the word "instrument" in the quoted text, it was in place of "concertina" which would otherwise have been (over)used 3 times in very close proximty, whilst (I hoped) I'd already made my meaning clear...

 

... Harry Geuns' hybrid bandoneon using Chromatic accordion layout is a Bandoneon and is not a rare bird in Bandonion schools of Buenos Aires. It is a hearsay, I heard if from a guy, who has one, has been to BA and has pretty decent tango band.

Hearsay or heresy?

 

Yes, we've discussed before whether a Bandoneon with the buttons on its sides, rather than the ends, is still a concertina, and I've trotted out my rare Russian (Ivan Blagin, Odessa) one that kinda' bridges the gap.

 

Well, I guess those hybrids are a lot easier to get hold of than a decent "doble A" these days, but they're more the kind of thing I'd expect a French accordion player to bring out to play tangos on, instead of his (French-model) continental chromatic accordion.

 

I don't care if it's square or triangled.

Perhaps it would be a good idea if you clarified exactly what you are proposing?

 

... you seem to be happy with current level of playing. Good for you.

I'm happy with the current level of instrument - to my mind (and that of a leading maker) nobody has ever equalled, let alone excelled the quality of the best Æolas, built around 1910.

 

I can assure you (from personal experience) that some top-quality ones made for professional players (like Alf Edwards') can have a quite staggering dynamic range

Look above. Somehow I missed it in 99% of performances.

I'd say that firstly, you don't find the performers expressive enough for your liking, and secondly, you won't find many concertinas (like that particular one) that were made specially for a virtuoso and played by them for almost half a century.

 

It feels that it is easier for him to do so. He claims it's the result of improved handle. Why would I doubt it?

Because (to use your own argument), that's only hearsay?

Because you can ask him. I did. I'm convinced.

But that's still hearsay, until you try it yourself.

 

How about fitting similar "handles" to your own concertina? Or better still, get yourself a really good Æola and try that same instrument out with, and without them - then report back to us with your findings.

Time?

No excuse! Otherwise everything you say about it is only speculation.

 

Sounds like over optimistic eager-beaver kinda patting on the shoulder.

I'm afraid what you are interpreting that way is simply the flowery way they wrote in English, back in the 1850s.

 

... similar passages on the violin are still been played today by new Runinis, Paganinis or Ernsts, and EC is where it is. ... I don't understand why violin and accordion both reached unimaginable levels of virtuosity, leaving Concertina way behind. I'm looking for inspiration and respect, not strange looks from people and questions like:"why then have you chosen this funny accordion instead of real one?"

I think it got to be "where it is" because the piano accordion took over from it in the late 1920s/early '30s (just as the guitar replaced the banjo, around the same time), so much so that most players of the English concertina found they had to take up the newly fashionable accordion, instead of the unfashionable concertina, to get gigs, and Lachenal's built their Accordeaphone to try to compete.

 

We too, had to rush our daughter to hospital with severe impetigo. It's the third case in 2 years. I'm so tired of this. OK, I'm off to bandage her hands now.

I'm sorry to hear that, and wish her well.

[m3838]

It brings us back to discussion of what's a concertina. It's, I think, irrelevant

... and so do I!

OK

but I do feel you seem to want to change everything that defines an "English concertina" to us, except the fingering system

Not sure I see the correlation between your two answers, but it's OK. It's just me. My ideas are not so radical, just get rid of ridiculous cylindrical shape when it's not needed, and add meaningful handles. Another one is make it one directional only and supply large air valve, spring powered. Reeds must sound on the pull. Bass single action concertinas have been made, but with enormous mistake crept in - action was on the push. This single handedly disabled instrument's potential.

That's all I'm saying!

 

 

Well, I guess those hybrids are a lot easier to get hold of than a decent "doble A" these days, but they're more the kind of thing I'd expect a French accordion player to bring out to play tangos on, instead of his (French-model) continental chromatic accordion.

I'm actually surprised to read this. I think it's irrelevant what instrument is used for the music, esp. when French tango is a thing in itself, having little in common with argentinian tanglo. (French is tamed and smooth, Argentinian is sharp and nervous)

 

 

I'm happy with the current level of instrument - to my mind (and that of a leading maker) nobody has ever equalled, let alone excelled the quality of the best Æolas, built around 1910.

I can't argue with that.

 

I'd say that firstly, you don't find the performers expressive enough for your liking

That's what I'm saying, exactly. And not only I.

 

It feels that it is easier for him to do so. He claims it's the result of improved handle. Why would I doubt it?

Because (to use your own argument), that's only hearsay?

Because you can ask him. I did. I'm convinced.

But that's still hearsay, until you try it yourself.

Well, it's not a hearsay, we can look at it and listen to. We can compare dynamics and the way Goran's instrument is held, the ease and power of bellows change, control he has without neck strap or securing instrument on his knees. It's obvious! Why is it a hearsay?

 

How about fitting similar "handles" to your own concertina? Or better still, get yourself a really good Æola and try that same instrument out with, and without them - then report back to us with your findings.

Time?

No excuse! Otherwise everything you say about it is only speculation.

I did little experimenting. I made Concertina Silencer out of knitting rings and thick vinyl - works!

I chromatized 20 button Lachenal and learned to play it enough to proof the point - works!

I came out with shoulder strap for concertina to improve ergonomics and control - works (meaning, gives better dynamics with less effort)!

I started making Goran's handle, but time doesn't permit me to continue. So much so, that I haven't touched my Wheatstone Tenor in a year. I'm in school now, retraining and teach part time, writing syllabus etc.

 

Sounds like over optimistic eager-beaver kinda patting on the shoulder.

I'm afraid what you are interpreting that way is simply the flowery way they wrote in English, back in the 1850s.

No, I recognize myself in the writing. I tend to give lots of kudos, when I'm excited.

 

I think it got to be "where it is" because the piano accordion took over from it in the late 1920s/early '30s

 

It's a good point. I've been reading about it and the consensus is that PA picked up and held for so long not because of passion, but mainly because this new glittering fashionable instrument was easily picked up by professional jazz piano players. Immediately it soared up to un-reachable level for accordion players of other systems. Piano Accordion has become a symbol of quality and coolness. We know that high level CBA players had accordions with fake piano keys, to fool the public and menagers. So we're back to basics, Concertina WAS played by pros for almost 50 years! Didn't survive and went to folk scene, where it's non-musical aspects won over: portability, loudness, easy chords (for Anglo) - a 19 century boom-box. I suspect in-built lack of versatility and expressiveness and blame ergonomics. It's the only thing that differentiate Concertina from Accordion.

 

Thanks for good wishes to my daughter. Hopefully this year's Hawai'i will recharge her for next year.

[Dirge]

All right I'm talking duets, not English, but very often design features that seem poor when you are learning turn out to be not so daft once you move on a bit. I've come to have a huge amount of respect for Prof. Wheatstone's boys; I think they were a bunch of very skilled craftsmen responding to the requirements of another skilled group, the pro players, and that if they thought there was a right way to do things, their huge hands-on experience at the time means that you revolt against them at your peril.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

If one is not satisfied with what is available or feels that the design is wrong then the answer is to commission a custom instrument to be made incorporating ones requirements. With this, one can then promote the expected benefits of the instrument and if successful, such an instrument would probably be added to current makers lists.

It must be observed that some theoretical suggestions regarding construction/design may not be possible in practice.

 

Geoff Crabb.

[Chris Drinkwater]

If one is not satisfied with what is available or feels that the design is wrong then the answer is to commission a custom instrument to be made incorporating ones requirements. With this, one can then promote the expected benefits of the instrument and if successful, such an instrument would probably be added to current makers lists.

It must be observed that some theoretical suggestions regarding construction/design may not be possible in practice.

 

Geoff Crabb.

 

Just for the record Geoff, are you open to having someone commission a custom instrument from you?

 

Chris

[david_boveri]

If one is not satisfied with what is available or feels that the design is wrong then the answer is to commission a custom instrument to be made incorporating ones requirements. With this, one can then promote the expected benefits of the instrument and if successful, such an instrument would probably be added to current makers lists.

It must be observed that some theoretical suggestions regarding construction/design may not be possible in practice.

 

Geoff Crabb.

 

Just for the record Geoff, are you open to having someone commission a custom instrument from you?

 

Chris

 

i dont pretend to know geoff or speak for him, but i think that part of the benefit of being a skilled craftsman is that you can say yes or no to anyone. sometimes customers can get out of hand. i have seen people get wildly out of control--asking for cowboy-themed concertinas and the like (if you're reading this: you know who you are, ;-P).

 

i think it's best to let such discussions remain private. if m3838 or any of us would like to solicit mr. crabb, we surely can figure out how to get a hold of him. that way he can say no to someone who has crazy notions of gilded cowboy concertinas with square reed plates, and yes to someone who has as a minor customization, and no one will be the wiser. most importantly, no one will have leverage over geoff if he says yes and later tries to say no to the sponge-bob concertina.

 

i think the comment itself is evidence enough that it would not be out of turn to ask him such a question, though he is under no obligation to say yes.

 

(and geoff--sorry if i'm stepping on your toes. i just have heard too many stories of pestering customers. i know of a guy who has alienated at least two or three makers of another instrument because of such crazy requests).