Push/pull question...

[Azalin]

I haven't been using the push A (second octave) on the left accidental row much but I recently started using it to alter the phrasing a bit, and get some push/pull going. Today I was practicing "The Cameronian" and started using the push A in the first part. Here's a clip I recorded.

 

I'm basically pulling the F# - pushing the A, pulling the D - pushing the A.

 

It makes it a bit easier for me to separate the notes, but I'm still undecided about the phrasing. Is it too much push/pull? I'd like to put my question in 'Clare style' context maybe, and trying to get a traditionnal phrasing.

 

Do you know what people like Noel Hill would do here? Did someone ever get taught the tune by a good teacher? I also learnt most of my tunes originally on the whistle, mostly from flute, whistle, pipe players, so concertina phrasing still doesn't come naturally to me.

[david_boveri]

I haven't been using the push A (second octave) on the left accidental row much but I recently started using it to alter the phrasing a bit, and get some push/pull going. Today I was practicing "The Cameronian" and started using the push A in the first part. Here's a clip I recorded.

 

I'm basically pulling the F# - pushing the A, pulling the D - pushing the A.

 

It makes it a bit easier for me to separate the notes, but I'm still undecided about the phrasing. Is it too much push/pull? I'd like to put my question in 'Clare style' context maybe, and trying to get a traditionnal phrasing.

 

Do you know what people like Noel Hill would do here? Did someone ever get taught the tune by a good teacher? I also learnt most of my tunes originally on the whistle, mostly from flute, whistle, pipe players, so concertina phrasing still doesn't come naturally to me.

 

i would say noel hill would not play with that fingering. in those fingering combinations he teaches to use all three of those on the pull! i would also doubt it was "traditional," as it is more complicated than it needs to be. many people do use that push A button more than noel hill, but in that context i wonder who would play it like that, as it seems to be making your life more difficult by changing buttons in order to have to change bellows every other note, which is in turn difficult.

 

that being said, if you really like the phrasing, then stick with it, but it's not so hyper important to change bellows every other note to get that bouncy feeling. if you would like to separate the notes, it is a good idea to work on playing staccato, that is lifting up your fingers briefly between notes, while still applying pressure to the bellows.

[Azalin]

Well, that's the thing, it's not harder for me to push/pull right there. It makes no difference in the difficulty level. Maybe it would at faster speed. It's actually *harder* for me to use the pull A because then pulling many notes require me to clearly separate the notes between the pulls and I don't like the effect, but then maybe I need to practice doing it better.

 

So I don't see what I'm doing, from a technical point of view, as more complicated and harder. The real question is: does the push/pull in my example result in worse phrasing than you'd get pulling the A?

[david_boveri]

Well, that's the thing, it's not harder for me to push/pull right there. It makes no difference in the difficulty level. Maybe it would at faster speed. It's actually *harder* for me to use the pull A because then pulling many notes require me to clearly separate the notes between the pulls and I don't like the effect, but then maybe I need to practice doing it better.

 

So I don't see what I'm doing, from a technical point of view, as more complicated and harder. The real question is: does the push/pull in my example result in worse phrasing than you'd get pulling the A?

 

i dont like it. the only one who can tell you whether or not you like it is you. i can imagine many examples of noel hill showing us different fingerings, ones such as you just played, and saying, "what fiddle player would ever phrase a tune like that?"

 

i was saying it made your life more difficult cuz you had to intentionally learn how to do that, and unlearn what you knew before, thus changing two things: button and bellows direction. i can play it like that no problem, but i just dont see the point. it would make it more difficult to play it fast, but as i have little problem with jumping between three buttons on the same finger in sweeneys buttermilk, i would not find this a problem either. but, then again, i wouldnt do three buttons on one finger except for the challenge, and i wouldnt change bellows direction every note unless i had to.

 

phrasing is more than just what buttons you choose. that is only a part of it. phrasing is in how you accent notes and where and how you put space between notes. one of the things noel taught us was to not become slaves to the bellows--do not let them mandate how your phrases sound. you can change bellow directions every other note and make it sound legato, as well as never change directions and make it sound staccato. i think that when you change bellows every other note for a whole measure, it makes it more likely that the concertina controls your phrasing than you.

[PaddyLosty]

I can't speak specifically for the fingering as I'm new to playing the concertina.

 

However, as a fiddler that has studied the concertina playing of Mary MacNamara, the Coen's and Kitty Hayes as a source of "clare bounce" in my fiddle playing, I think the "in-out" in this case emphasizes the bounce of the tune. It isn't a smooth tune, so why would you want to smooth it out? I would bow those notes in different directions to emphasize that, whereas for the most part I slur a lot of jumpy notes like that, and use left hand articulation to accent the changes. I don't know what the gospel of Noel would say to do there, but by the feel of the tune, what you're doing works.

 

But, I'm just a fiddle player so hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in!

[Azalin]

Hmmm thanks guys, some good food for thoughts. I will ponder the the thing, maybe I'll look for some Youtubes of this tune and try to hear different versions. Ahhhhh concertina life is so not easy....