more duet problems/tuning/repair

[HelenG]

Hi all - I've just finished repairing my first concertina - a Lachenal brass reeded 46 key MacCann duet. I'm trying to learn how to play it and find that it's a bit breathy - it takes a lot of air to make it go - not bad on one side only but as with the other person on the forum it's a bit difficult to work out the air when trying to play with both hands - it seems to take a LOT of air and I need to change bellows direction too soon. What have I done? Why are some of the reeds a bit slow to work? Have I messed it up while trying to tune it? Any ideas greatfully received!

[Jon C.]

Hi all - I've just finished repairing my first concertina - a Lachenal brass reeded 46 key MacCann duet. I'm trying to learn how to play it and find that it's a bit breathy - it takes a lot of air to make it go - not bad on one side only but as with the other person on the forum it's a bit difficult to work out the air when trying to play with both hands - it seems to take a LOT of air and I need to change bellows direction too soon. What have I done? Why are some of the reeds a bit slow to work? Have I messed it up while trying to tune it? Any ideas greatfully received!

Hi,

How is the reed pan seal? Are the valves sealing? Are the pads sealing? Are there air leaks in the bellows still? Are the end plates warped? Are the screws tight?

Your reeds may need to be adjusted, if the tounge has to much of a gap, it will make a slow reed. Depending on the size of the reed, the smaller ones have the tounge almost level with the shoe, where the larger reeds need more of a gap.

So many problems to choose from!

Good luck!

Jon

[Greg Jowaisas]

Helen,

If one side seems to play as expected and the other seems breathy and inefficient the culpret is probably the reed pan seals. This could be because the pan is no longer a snug fit in which case you may need to carefully lift the chamois seal and lay in a strip of light card; or the blocks which support the reed pan have failed (come loose) or shifted. You'll need to reglue or shim them to make sure the reed pan makes a tight seal with the sound board (button board).

 

I've found brass reed instruments can be responsive but making sure there is no air loss is critical to getting them to perform to their full potential.

 

Good luck!

 

Greg

[d.elliott]

Hi all - I've just finished repairing my first concertina - a Lachenal brass reeded 46 key MacCann duet. I'm trying to learn how to play it and find that it's a bit breathy - it takes a lot of air to make it go - not bad on one side only but as with the other person on the forum it's a bit difficult to work out the air when trying to play with both hands - it seems to take a LOT of air and I need to change bellows direction too soon. What have I done? Why are some of the reeds a bit slow to work? Have I messed it up while trying to tune it? Any ideas greatfully received!

 

 

Helen,

 

firstly well done for for doing what ever you have, many people never even start, and if they do, they don't ask when they should.

 

Can you confirm which side works best? I would guess its the right hand side?

 

 

Dave E

[HelenG]

Hi all - I've just finished repairing my first concertina - a Lachenal brass reeded 46 key MacCann duet. I'm trying to learn how to play it and find that it's a bit breathy - it takes a lot of air to make it go - not bad on one side only but as with the other person on the forum it's a bit difficult to work out the air when trying to play with both hands - it seems to take a LOT of air and I need to change bellows direction too soon. What have I done? Why are some of the reeds a bit slow to work? Have I messed it up while trying to tune it? Any ideas greatfully received!

 

 

Helen,

 

firstly well done for for doing what ever you have, many people never even start, and if they do, they don't ask when they should.

 

Can you confirm which side works best? I would guess its the right hand side?

 

 

Dave E

Thanks for the praise! I'm not sure, I think it's the right side, but I think I'm trying to play with both hands at once so the air runs out too fast! I expect that the left side has the same trouble as baritones - bigger reeds take more air? I also had a look at the other person's feedback and I think some of it is that the bellows are quite stiff. Some of it is individual reeds, but I don't think there are any leaks - it seems very airtight, the valves seem fine as do the pads - I think - mind you as I said it's the first one I've done - I'm just a bit worried that I've tuned it wrongly - even though I followed your directions as far as I could - used wet and dry fixed to the end of a square chop stick - just about the right size for the little reeds! It sounds quite good, it's just a bit sluggish - perhaps I'm just too used to my very responsive English! If I get to the Royal in the not too distant future I'll bring it with me to get pulled to pieces by you all - I'm not proud or thin skinned! Otherwise I'll bring it to show you at Swaledale if that's OK.

[HelenG]

Hi,

How is the reed pan seal? Are the valves sealing? Are the pads sealing? Are there air leaks in the bellows still? Are the end plates warped? Are the screws tight?

Your reeds may need to be adjusted, if the tounge has to much of a gap, it will make a slow reed. Depending on the size of the reed, the smaller ones have the tounge almost level with the shoe, where the larger reeds need more of a gap.

So many problems to choose from!

Good luck!

Jon

 

Thanks for replying Jon - I'm pretty sure the reed pans are fine, although I must admit that when I was roughing up the chamois one of the VERY THIN walls between two of the chambers split just below the chamois - I'm sure I repaired it ok because there aren't any weird noises coming out of the 2 chambers concerned, so I stopped fiddling with it and put it all back together without doing anything else to it! I wouldn't be at all surprised if the reeds need adjusting, but I supported them with a thin piece of metal while I was tuning them, so I'm hoping that that would do the trick. The little ones were very close to the shoes - difficult to get anything in between them, and they still are.

I must admit I'm quite proud of myself even though it doesn't look at all as good as yours, and I'm enjoying learning to play it, and finding that the left hand notes sound quite good with the right hand ones - despite the aforementioned concerns! If I can steel myself to open it up again I'll have another go at roughing up the chamois to see if that helps. Thanks again. Helen

[d.elliott]

Hi all - I've just finished repairing my first concertina - a Lachenal brass reeded 46 key MacCann duet. I'm trying to learn how to play it and find that it's a bit breathy - it takes a lot of air to make it go - not bad on one side only but as with the other person on the forum it's a bit difficult to work out the air when trying to play with both hands - it seems to take a LOT of air and I need to change bellows direction too soon. What have I done? Why are some of the reeds a bit slow to work? Have I messed it up while trying to tune it? Any ideas greatfully received!

 

 

Helen,

 

firstly well done for for doing what ever you have, many people never even start, and if they do, they don't ask when they should.

 

Can you confirm which side works best? I would guess its the right hand side?

 

 

Dave E

Thanks for the praise! I'm not sure, I think it's the right side, but I think I'm trying to play with both hands at once so the air runs out too fast! I expect that the left side has the same trouble as baritones - bigger reeds take more air? I also had a look at the other person's feedback and I think some of it is that the bellows are quite stiff. Some of it is individual reeds, but I don't think there are any leaks - it seems very airtight, the valves seem fine as do the pads - I think - mind you as I said it's the first one I've done - I'm just a bit worried that I've tuned it wrongly - even though I followed your directions as far as I could - used wet and dry fixed to the end of a square chop stick - just about the right size for the little reeds! It sounds quite good, it's just a bit sluggish - perhaps I'm just too used to my very responsive English! If I get to the Royal in the not too distant future I'll bring it with me to get pulled to pieces by you all - I'm not proud or thin skinned! Otherwise I'll bring it to show you at Swaledale if that's OK.

 

Helen,

 

I shall be at Swaledale, all things being equal,

 

A couple of tests for you to try

 

with the bellows open halfway, pick a note, press its key, gently move the bellows closed and get a feel for how little pressure is needed to make the reed just start to sound.

 

as it is about to sound can you hear air? can you hear the valve (valve purcussion) close or the reed 'kick' as the valve closes? Can you hear the reed suddendly swell as its mating valve suddenly lifts?

 

Same note, having got the feel for just how little movement causes sound in compressive bellows movement, keeping the finger on the key, reverse the direction of travel and see if the other reed on that key sounds on pull as sensitively, (more so or less so) as on bellows push.

 

This will test the gapping of each reed, and the valve performances for a specific key, get them right and move on the the next note. Given the symptoms you describe, you are really looking for reed gapping and if you have set reed gaps a bit wide accross the instrument. This will seriously affect air efficiency.

 

Dave

[HelenG]

[

 

Helen,

 

I shall be at Swaledale, all things being equal,

 

A couple of tests for you to try

 

with the bellows open halfway, pick a note, press its key, gently move the bellows closed and get a feel for how little pressure is needed to make the reed just start to sound.

 

as it is about to sound can you hear air? can you hear the valve (valve purcussion) close or the reed 'kick' as the valve closes? Can you hear the reed suddendly swell as its mating valve suddenly lifts?

 

Same note, having got the feel for just how little movement causes sound in compressive bellows movement, keeping the finger on the key, reverse the direction of travel and see if the other reed on that key sounds on pull as sensitively, (more so or less so) as on bellows push.

 

This will test the gapping of each reed, and the valve performances for a specific key, get them right and move on the the next note. Given the symptoms you describe, you are really looking for reed gapping and if you have set reed gaps a bit wide accross the instrument. This will seriously affect air efficiency.

 

Dave

 

Right Dave - I've tested the reeds and the left side is better - only a few reeds don't sound immediately - on the right side at least half the reeds don't sound immediately - I must admit I didn't do anything about the reed gaps as I didn't understand what it was all about - I'm the sort of person who has to do it to understand it and I was always useless at physics. The valves seem ok as far as I can tell, so it would appear that gaps are the problem - do you think they are too wide or too narrow, and if so what do I do with them? As I play it it seems to be getting a bit easier in general - the bellows are a bit stiff and to begin with it was really hard to play - it hurt my fingers a bit, but it doesn't do that now.

 

Cheers, H

[d.elliott]

[

 

Helen,

 

 

 

Dave

 

Right Dave - I've tested the reeds and the left side is better - only a few reeds don't sound immediately - on the right side at least half the reeds don't sound immediately - I must admit I didn't do anything about the reed gaps as I didn't understand what it was all about - I'm the sort of person who has to do it to understand it and I was always useless at physics. The valves seem ok as far as I can tell, so it would appear that gaps are the problem - do you think they are too wide or too narrow, and if so what do I do with them? As I play it it seems to be getting a bit easier in general - the bellows are a bit stiff and to begin with it was really hard to play - it hurt my fingers a bit, but it doesn't do that now.

 

Cheers, H

 

 

Helen,

 

as it is the RH side (smaller & higher sounding reeds) i would look for three things,

 

valvesaction, ie catching, or curling away from the reed pan, or being too stiff.

 

Or the reed gap being a bit two wide (breathy and slow). too smaller gap is muted and often quick to sound.

 

Or the air getting rtound a loosly fitted, badly sealed reed pan.

 

Swaledale is not too far away now, is it?

 

Dave