Talent

[michael sam wild]

I've just been watching the Matthew Wright Show on morning TV (UK) about talent or practice and the psycholgists reckon 10,000 hours as a minimum toget competent! They had phone ins and interviews with spots people and various artists and the concensus seemed to be that you have to have the innate desire plus the sheer hard work. They talked to people who did 7-10 hours per day as professionals. 3 hours seemed pretty typical

I believe there's an Irish saying that after 7 years listening, 7 years practising 7 hours playing then you were starting out as a musician

Most of the 'naturals' I know practice very hard to the point of obsession but don't go on about it and that's the essence of making it look easy on the night.

[david_boveri]

when you tap your foot, where does the beat lie?

1. at the bottom (when the foot hits the ground)

2. in the middle (when the foot is between its highest point and lowest point)

3. at the top (when the foot is at the highest point)

please sing something, tap your foot, and answer the question before moving on.

everyone i have asked says it is the bottom, which is where i thought it was. james kelly taught me it is actually in the middle. he told me to watch players at a session--those who tend to rush, will play with the beat when their foot hits the ground, and those who tend to drag play with the beat at the top. it is only a millisecond difference, but it makes a huge difference.

 

Sorry to digress slightly off topic but since you raised it, I would say in my case, I start my foot movement downwards on the beat - it's the start of the movement thats hits the beat, not when it hits the ground.

But apart from that, I don't follow your point above re players in a session. If a person is playing solo - it doesn't matter where their foot is on the beat as long as they are regular and consistent. If you look at a group of people playing well together, they will be listening to each other and playing in unison, but their foot tapping may be out of sync. - some may be a little ahead or behind or double tapping in a reel etc. - no matter as long as each is regular and they listen to the others to keep together.

 

I have oftimes amused myself watching accomplished musicians and seeing if my foot tap matched theirs. I might think it was a little ahead or behind but as soon as I forget about it and let the brain take over, it feels right anyway. Have you ever been in a large hall like the Willie Clancy with perhaps several hundred people tapping their feet - it's takes on a life of it's own - a background throb rooted in the community gathered and it's not exactly even.

 

Surely an audible foot tapping beat from performers has to be precisely on the beat otherwise it serves no purpose. Why, in strict tempo music, is a foot tapping beat of any value other than immediately preceding the start of a tune in order to establish the chosen tempo at which to proceed, after which it becomes superfluous and merely a distraction ?

 

you can never start exactly on the beat, because starting a note directly on the beat is starting late. in other words, you must START a system vibrating before you want it to actually vibrate harmonically, meaning that you must apply the energy to a system before you want the output from the system to come out. this is a general rule. you must apply heat to a flame before you want it to ignite, not at the exact moment you would like it to ignite; you must light the fuse for a firework before you want it to shoot off, not when you want it to shoot off, allowing time for both the fuse to run short, the gunpowder to light, the firework to reach velocity, for the final explosion to occur, and for the light to be created which is seen by the viewer.

 

in music, then, in order for a note to start on time, you must allow the harmonic system (voice, reed, tube, string, drum-membrane) to resonate, as well as time for the instructions to be carried out in the brain and transmitted to the body. say "dum dum dum dum", tapping one two three four, keeping the beat in the middle of the tap, then having the beat be at the bottom of the tap. the difference is like a hundredth of a second, but that is about how long it takes for the pressure applied from your lungs to your tongue against the roof of your mouth to build up enough for you to pull back, allowing your vocal chords to start the "d" of "dum." if you wait until the foot hits the bottom, then yes, you will be out of time, because by the time you start saying "dum" the sound of the foot tap will have been long past.

 

if then, i am playing concertina, i hit the buttons on the middle of the foot tap, because by the the note starts (time to travel to button, time for pressure to be applied to the reed, time for reed to start resonating), it is actually on the tap. part of it also has to do with the time need for an action being conceived in (a) part(s) of the brain and it traveling throughout all the other areas in the brain, down the spinal chord, and into to the fingers.

 

this may seem to be overthinking it all, which it is, but since you questioned the logic of it, i overthought it. the real answer is that if you try to do it anywhere else, you will get tripped up, and end up out of time.

 

 

for this last part, the summation is, it is probably easier for the brain to calculate movement than being stopped by the ground:

 

i am also guessing that part of it has to do with the feedback system for checking whether or not you are on the beat. if you counted the beat at the bottom of the tap, not only would it be out of time because you would then start to the process of making the sound after the tap you are lining it up with has begun, but then to monitor this you would have to take input from the neurons in the foot which react to pressure (or the vibrations of the sound of the foot tap in relation to the sound produced hitting your hear), both of which take time. this is why you pull your finger away when you touch a hot thing before you realize its hot--the system to take it up to your brain is way too slow. i would guess, then, that the system involved with counting the beat midtap would be in the brain, and not in the foot. it would involve the body's calculation of where the foot is (i'm thinking cerebellum), and then checking if the foot is actually where the body thought it would be (pre-frontal cortex). i would then guess that the brain would rely on the estimate made by the cerebellum, and use the estimate as if it were the truth, just as a baseball player runs after a baseball, and must keep a running tally of where he is in relation to the ball, even when he is looking forward instead of upwards, so that he can keep his balance/increase his speed. in other words (according to my guess), your brain would use the instructions being sent to the foot, as well as the model of where the foot should be in relation to the calculations in the cerebellum, as the actually metronome, rather than relying on the time delay in foot/leg/spine/brain (or worse, foot/ground/air/distance/ear-drum/cochlea/nerve/brain). of course, the calculations made by the cerebellum would constantly be readjusted and recalculated, as more input is derived from the foot.

[Jody Kruskal]

Interesting discussion.

 

Mindfulness is key to my practicing. In practice mode, I play and pay attention to one focused aspect, leaving the rest on automatic. Then I switch to another aspect and try again. My mind, in holding an image or intention as I play affects the music that comes out, sometimes dramatically. I have my favorites and delight in finding new ones. Here are a few.

 

Play as:

 

softly

smoothly

staccato

legato

simply

complicated

clean

messy

 

as possible.

 

Or perhaps I might think... “connecting the notes of the melody are my top priority this time around”

 

Here’s one example of what I mean. I’m trying to execute a difficult passage. The notes are not coming out smoothly and there are slight hesitations in the timing. If I think of my fingers as lifting from the buttons to make the rhythm instead of pushing down on the buttons to make the rhythm... TA DAH, I’ve got it.

 

Same fingers, buttons, music, ears etc. the only difference between success and failure was my imposed mental intention.

 

As for tapping feet. I think that if you are tapping loud enough for me to hear, then you better think of the floor as an instrument. The sound needs to be in time to the rest of the music or I’ll be unhappy.

[Rod]

Interesting discussion.

 

Mindfulness is key to my practicing. In practice mode, I play and pay attention to one focused aspect, leaving the rest on automatic. Then I switch to another aspect and try again. My mind, in holding an image or intention as I play affects the music that comes out, sometimes dramatically. I have my favorites and delight in finding new ones. Here are a few.

 

Play as:

 

softly

smoothly

staccato

legato

simply

complicated

clean

messy

 

as possible.

 

Or perhaps I might think... “connecting the notes of the melody are my top priority this time around”

 

Here’s one example of what I mean. I’m trying to execute a difficult passage. The notes are not coming out smoothly and there are slight hesitations in the timing. If I think of my fingers as lifting from the buttons to make the rhythm instead of pushing down on the buttons to make the rhythm... TA DAH, I’ve got it.

 

Same fingers, buttons, music, ears etc. the only difference between success and failure was my imposed mental intention.

 

As for tapping feet. I think that if you are tapping loud enough for me to hear, then you better think of the floor as an instrument. The sound needs to be in time to the rest of the music or I’ll be unhappy.

[Rod]

Interesting discussion.

 

Mindfulness is key to my practicing. In practice mode, I play and pay attention to one focused aspect, leaving the rest on automatic. Then I switch to another aspect and try again. My mind, in holding an image or intention as I play affects the music that comes out, sometimes dramatically. I have my favorites and delight in finding new ones. Here are a few.

 

Play as:

 

softly

smoothly

staccato

legato

simply

complicated

clean

messy

 

as possible.

 

Or perhaps I might think... “connecting the notes of the melody are my top priority this time around”

 

Here’s one example of what I mean. I’m trying to execute a difficult passage. The notes are not coming out smoothly and there are slight hesitations in the timing. If I think of my fingers as lifting from the buttons to make the rhythm instead of pushing down on the buttons to make the rhythm... TA DAH, I’ve got it.

 

Same fingers, buttons, music, ears etc. the only difference between success and failure was my imposed mental intention.

 

As for tapping feet. I think that if you are tapping loud enough for me to hear, then you better think of the floor as an instrument. The sound needs to be in time to the rest of the music or I’ll be unhappy.

 

Excellent, no-nonsense advice from Jody.

[Ptarmigan]

I don't listen to my neighbours foot taps when I'm playing, just feel my own. I do however listen to what my neighbour is playing so as to keep together at the overall tempo of the group.

No, in a noisy session I won't be listening to anyone else tapping either, or watching their tapping either, for that matter. However, sometimes in quieter sessions, when your pub has a good hard floor, you just cannot help but hear other players tapping, especially if they are double tapping to your single tap. This is never a problem, except when they sound like they're trying to drown out the sound of their own music with the sound of their size 10s! That can be annoying to me, cause I must say, I prefer to listen to the melody & the music.

 

I remember a guy used to play sometimes in our session who just could not tap his foot in time to the music. It didn't matter what the tune's rhythm was, his foot was in another world! It was like his foot was having some kind of a fit, there was never ever any rhyme or reason & certainly never any regular rhythm or pattern to his tapping. His tapping was so bad & I must say distracting, that if you were unfortunate enough to be sitting next to him, you really had to concentrate on your own tapping to keep your own playing steady. Strangely enough, his actual playing was pretty steady!

 

Mind you, beware ..... if you have always tapped your foot & especially if you are used to tapping loudly, so much so that you find it difficult, or at least very uncomfortable to play without tapping, then watch out when you have to sit in a recording studio! I've seen guys have to take their shoes off or tap onto a cushion, which doesn't have the same effect at all.

 

I remember too, one time, us having to sit on high bar stools in one pub, where our feet were just dangling! That felt very, very strange & really uncomfortable ~ tapping thin air all night .... I hated that!

 

Cheers

Dick

[Ptarmigan]

I believe there's an Irish saying that after 7 years listening, 7 years practising 7 hours playing then you were starting out as a musician

 

Yes, that quote was made in reference to those easy to play Uilleann Pipes!

After all, those Pipers have to learn how to control a bag under one arm, control a set of bellows under the other arm, learn to play melody on the chanter, learn to play their own rhythmic & melodic accompaniment on the three regulators & try to keep their SEVEN reeds in tune all night!

 

I'm surprised it only takes them 21 years!

 

Do you see now, how easy the Concertina is?

[Anglo-Irishman]

Same fingers, buttons, music, ears etc. the only difference between success and failure was my imposed mental intention.

 

Jody,

that's music in a nutshell! Particularly true of playing expressively.

 

Cheers,

John

[Dave Rogers]

This is never a problem, except when they sound like they're trying to drown out the sound of their own music with the sound of their size 10s!

 

At the very beginning of the first "River of Sound" tv programme, there are a couple of musicians playing for a roomful of dancers doing a polka. The accordian player is stamping his foot for all he's worth, but he has bare feet, so (presumably) nobody can hear him.

 

There's your answer - "All footwear to be left at the door" of every session!

[Jody Kruskal]

I remember a guy used to play sometimes in our session who just could not tap his foot in time to the music. It didn't matter what the tune's rhythm was, his foot was in another world! It was like his foot was having some kind of a fit, there was never ever any rhyme or reason & certainly never any regular rhythm or pattern to his tapping. His tapping was so bad & I must say distracting, that if you were unfortunate enough to be sitting next to him, you really had to concentrate on your own tapping to keep your own playing steady. Strangely enough, his actual playing was pretty steady!

Cheers

Dick

 

Yeah, I play with a guy who does that, drives me crazy.

 

At a crowded session in Kilrush this summer, I was sitting between a guitar banger and an English maniac badly busking on a loud Jefferies. After a bit I thought that it was time to find another session, packed up and left. On the way out I got in conversation and then heard a really good tune I wanted to play so I unpacked and joined the session again. This time I was sitting with the session leaders and what a difference... I could hear the tunes, the bangers were far away and I ended up staying all night with the publican buying me beers.

 

In recording it's called proximity effect, the closer the mic is the louder the signal. At a session?

 

I'm not sure I would have had the guts to simply change seats to get a better sound though. Getting up, going and then changing my mind worked out nicely.