D arpeggios on anglo

[Nathan]

I've been playing Irish music on a C/G anglo for a few years now. Lately I've been working on a few reels that make heavy use of the D arpeggio in the first octave -- something that has mostly been absent from my small repertoire so far -- and I'm finding the fingering quite awkward.

 

For a specific example, consider the A part of Cooley's reel. It has a phrase in the middle that goes like so:

FDAD BD AD | FDFA FDFA | dBAF ...

 

If I encountered these notes in isolation, I would typically play first octave D, A, and B on the C row, all on the pull, and second octave D on the G row. But the A->d jump means I have to use a different finger for one or the other.

 

If I switch the upper d to the C row, I end up with 3 straight measures of pull notes. Air problems aside, it ends up sounding rather flat.

 

The G-row d seems to work better for the latter part of the phrase, and it gives me a chance to move the bellows in. But to use that, I have to switch the A to the G row as well. That forces me to use my pinky and ring finger right next to each other, which I find physically very awkward. I can play either note alone without trouble, but I unconsciously shift my hand slightly for each one. To put both fingers down next to each other I have to bend the ring finger quite a lot.

 

In this particular tune I might play some of the low Ds on push to break up the bellows direction a bit. But other tunes have the same awkward FAd figure without benefit of a low D (e.g. Silver Spear or Merry Blacksmith).

 

I have considered shifting my left hand down by one key, since I have no trouble using the ring and middle fingers side-by-side. In the few tunes I've tried it works out nicely, but I'm wary of becoming dependent on such a trick, lest I discover down the road that I have to master the "proper" way regardless.

 

Is there a typical way of getting around these kinds of phrases? They're dreadfully common in Irish music, so I imagine I'm not the first to have such difficulties.

[david_boveri]

i would use the D on the G row, and then the 3rd finger A pull on the G row as well. the reason that i prefer this fingering is because you are only changing one thing compared to what you are used to: the button being used. any other choice would mean changing both the direction of the bellows and the note being used.

 

it is not a problem to use your pinkie next to your ring finger on the G row. i call moving your fingers down a button "second position," and although it is indeed the only way around certain fingering issues on the anglo, it is definitely not the solution for this situation. also, i don't see an issue with playing all the low D's on the pull.

 

i have made a video response using cooley's, and it is uploading to youtube. by the time you read this, the video should work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8MiiVY19IY

 

hope it clearly demonstrates my point. i played cooley's at the end to demonstrate the fact that playing so many pull notes in a row sounds fine, and there is no need to artificially put some push D's in there. a friend of mine taught me cooley's last year, but i haven't really played it since, so sorry if it is a bit sloppy. i also only played it through once in order to avoid making a mistake, so i went into the bucks of oranmore just to round off the video. if i was making a video about the music i would have spent one day practicing and one day shooting the video in order to avoid mistakes, but since it is just a demonstration i did it all in one night.

 

let me know if you have any questions, or if you would like me to make a video to address the other tunes you mentioned, let me know.

Edited February 23, 2011 by david_boveri

[michael sam wild]

Thnks , That's a very helpful andd immediate answer . I'm grappling with similar issues in D on a C/G.

[Nathan]

i would use the D on the G row, and then the 3rd finger A pull on the G row as well. the reason that i prefer this fingering is because you are only changing one thing compared to what you are used to: the button being used. any other choice would mean changing both the direction of the bellows and the note being used.

 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

 

it is not a problem to use your pinkie next to your ring finger on the G row.

 

Speak for yourself -- it's definitely giving me a hard time at the moment!

But I suppose I'll just have to work through it. I've tried the phrase that way a few more times and that one pinky -> ring finger transition is the only awkward bit. Otherwise it flows nicely and seems to work well musically. I imagine the fingers will grow more cooperative with practice.

 

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply! It was a big help.

[david_boveri]

i would use the D on the G row, and then the 3rd finger A pull on the G row as well. the reason that i prefer this fingering is because you are only changing one thing compared to what you are used to: the button being used. any other choice would mean changing both the direction of the bellows and the note being used.

 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

 

it is not a problem to use your pinkie next to your ring finger on the G row.

 

Speak for yourself -- it's definitely giving me a hard time at the moment!

But I suppose I'll just have to work through it. I've tried the phrase that way a few more times and that one pinky -> ring finger transition is the only awkward bit. Otherwise it flows nicely and seems to work well musically. I imagine the fingers will grow more cooperative with practice.

 

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply! It was a big help.

 

haha, i meant that it's not a problem in the long term, . a lot of people call the D, F# and A combination the "triangle of death," with good reason. a friend of mine has proposed moving the F# on the left hand side to where F natural is right now, but hasn't convinced any of us to jump ship with him.

 

i remember when i took my first week of lessons at noel hill's camp, and he said, "just start hitting random D's on the offbeat." i thought he was absolutely nuts to think that anyone could play chords AND do them without planning them ahead of time. i also thought i'd never be able to do a full crann. 6 years later and i've just about got my chords and cranns down, and my double octaves are coming along. i definitely feel your pain, .

 

you're welcome on the feedback!

[Azalin]

Good stuff. I've got a different approach to that tune. I'm satisfied with the result, but I understand it might not be the "best" way when it comes to ITM on anglo, I don't know... Anyhow, in this phrase I will use the push D on LH and the high D on the RH. I understand Nathan wanted to avoid using the RH D because it sounds 'flat'. Maybe, but pulling many notes on the C row sounds a bit flat to me, so it seems there's no perfect solution!

 

I recorded a small clip, first played slowly and then played faster than my ability to play, just to show that pushing the LH D on higher speed is still doable with acceptable result.

 

What do you think?

[david_boveri]

Good stuff. I've got a different approach to that tune. I'm satisfied with the result, but I understand it might not be the "best" way when it comes to ITM on anglo, I don't know... Anyhow, in this phrase I will use the push D on LH and the high D on the RH. I understand Nathan wanted to avoid using the RH D because it sounds 'flat'. Maybe, but pulling many notes on the C row sounds a bit flat to me, so it seems there's no perfect solution!

 

I recorded a small clip, first played slowly and then played faster than my ability to play, just to show that pushing the LH D on higher speed is still doable with acceptable result.

 

What do you think?

 

well, i am not a fan of using the low push D for melody unless it is needed to be used in conjunction with the low notes or possibly low C#. i do use it constantly, however, for doing double stops. personally, i am biased against the excessive "in/out" sound, so take my comment with a grain of salt. i prefer to do my phrasing with bellows and tone control, rather than defaulting to a bellows change to add my lift for me. in this tune, there is so much jumping back down to D that you don't need to artificially add a sense of lift, because it's built right into the tune. my hesitation on using the push D is not that it is too difficult, or not "doable," but rather that it is not necessary. i think it actually might be easier than doing it all on the pull, but i think that it is just a quick-fix, rather than a long-term solution to adding lift to your tune and space between your notes.

 

i would say using low push D does not add anything to your rendition of the tune, but rather takes away from it. again, that is just my bias, because i am not a fan of overemphasized bellows changes, but there are definitely many who are. anyways, if you look at this moment in my video:

you will hear i can achieve more lift and separation between notes than you do at 0:04 to 0:05 of your clip. it is not that you do not have a sense of lift or separation there, because clearly you do, buti like to think of my version as an idyllic version of the sound you're going after with all the bellows changes.

 

notice, however, i am doing it all on the pull. i definitely understand the temptation of using pull/push/pull/push to add space and energy to your tunes, but i think it only creates a false sense of lift and separation in your notes. so, even though i will admit my bias against your fingering is subjective, i stand behind the idea that your phrasing should come first from your tone control, and secondly from your choice of fingering.

 

i think that if you tried to play those notes all on the pull, you would find yourself "with your pants down" (to use your phrase). you might find if you try to do it all on the pull that all the lift and phrase that you "stole" from your bellows changes would go away, and you would be stuck with a bunch of notes that were in time but just sort of "fall flat." the fact that it is so much harder to get good lift on 8 pull notes is exactly the reason i stick with it... it is a lot more work, but to my ears the sound is just so much better when you compare 1:20 into my video to 0:04 into yours.

 

i will note, however, that when i speed up cooley's reel i do not maintain the same lift in that part! i was just trying to get through the tune, and have not practiced it enough to have the mental space necessary to separate all the notes as they rock back and forth from D.

 

as far as right hand pull D i definitely could hear that you were using it right away. the note just sounded lifeless... my personal opinion would be that you could keep the high D pull, but do something better with it. on my first listen through the note stuck out like a sore thumb, but on subsequent repeats i got over it. so, although i am not a huge fan of RH pull D, i definitely do use it in the same sorts of situations, as sometimes in D arpeggios it just adds a great roundness to a phrase that you can't get with the push D on the left hand.

 

if you wanted my recommendation, i would say that you should try to work on the tune without low push D, and see if you can get the same lift with all pull D's that you do with the push D's. then, go back to the push D's, and see which you like better... minimally when you go back to push D's, i think you'll find your phrasing will be better--as you can tell, i'm very biased against this fingering!. for the pull D in the second octave, i would not personally use it, but i don't think that it's worth you relearning the tune. just give it some good shape, maybe give it the sort of oomph that you gave the first note of the tune, or cut onto it (with an F# or Fnat).

 

of course, the timing is spot on throughout (perhaps more than mine), and overall it is very even and tasteful. but i'm sure you know that already,

[Azalin]

i think that if you tried to play those notes all on the pull, you would find yourself "with your pants down" (to use your phrase). you might find if you try to do it all on the pull that all the lift and phrase that you "stole" from your bellows changes would go away, and you would be stuck with a bunch of notes that were in time but just sort of "fall flat." the fact that it is so much harder to get good lift on 8 pull notes is exactly the reason i stick with it... it is a lot more work, but to my ears the sound is just so much better when you compare 1:20 into my video to 0:04 into yours.

 

i will note, however, that when i speed up cooley's reel i do not maintain the same lift in that part! i was just trying to get through the tune, and have not practiced it enough to have the mental space necessary to separate all the notes as they rock back and forth from D.

 

as far as right hand pull D i definitely could hear that you were using it right away. the note just sounded lifeless... my personal opinion would be that you could keep the high D pull, but do something better with it. on my first listen through the note stuck out like a sore thumb, but on subsequent repeats i got over it. so, although i am not a huge fan of RH pull D, i definitely do use it in the same sorts of situations, as sometimes in D arpeggios it just adds a great roundness to a phrase that you can't get with the push D on the left hand.

 

if you wanted my recommendation, i would say that you should try to work on the tune without low push D, and see if you can get the same lift with all pull D's that you do with the push D's. then, go back to the push D's, and see which you like better... minimally when you go back to push D's, i think you'll find your phrasing will be better--as you can tell, i'm very biased against this fingering!. for the pull D in the second octave, i would not personally use it, but i don't think that it's worth you relearning the tune. just give it some good shape, maybe give it the sort of oomph that you gave the first note of the tune, or cut onto it (with an F# or Fnat).

 

of course, the timing is spot on throughout (perhaps more than mine), and overall it is very even and tasteful. but i'm sure you know that already,

 

Thanks Dave. Yes, I will try to work on it and use pulls instead. I can use this phrase as a test case. You are also right I will definitely be caught with my pants down because the 'lift' will die, but I'll try to add some life to it. Thanks for the tips!

 

As for timing, just slow down and your timing will improve, that's an easy magic trick ;-)

[Azalin]

if you wanted my recommendation, i would say that you should try to work on the tune without low push D, and see if you can get the same lift with all pull D's that you do with the push D's. then, go back to the push D's, and see which you like better... minimally when you go back to push D's, i think you'll find your phrasing will be better--as you can tell, i'm very biased against this fingering!. for the pull D in the second octave, i would not personally use it, but i don't think that it's worth you relearning the tune. just give it some good shape, maybe give it the sort of oomph that you gave the first note of the tune, or cut onto it (with an F# or Fnat).

 

Well, help! My pants are down. I'm trying to play it on the pull, but using the LH third finger A to play the LH push high D. For one second I thought I had an english concertina in my hands. Such a nightmare. Anyhow, what would you suggest doing to give it some lift and life? Cutting a few notes? What else?

 

Here's the clip: http://www.metayer.ca/mp3/cooleys2.mp3

[david_boveri]

if you wanted my recommendation, i would say that you should try to work on the tune without low push D, and see if you can get the same lift with all pull D's that you do with the push D's. then, go back to the push D's, and see which you like better... minimally when you go back to push D's, i think you'll find your phrasing will be better--as you can tell, i'm very biased against this fingering!. for the pull D in the second octave, i would not personally use it, but i don't think that it's worth you relearning the tune. just give it some good shape, maybe give it the sort of oomph that you gave the first note of the tune, or cut onto it (with an F# or Fnat).

 

Well, help! My pants are down. I'm trying to play it on the pull, but using the LH third finger A to play the LH push high D. For one second I thought I had an english concertina in my hands. Such a nightmare. Anyhow, what would you suggest doing to give it some lift and life? Cutting a few notes? What else?

 

Here's the clip: http://www.metayer.ca/mp3/cooleys2.mp3

 

you could cut a note here or there, but it won't fix the underlying problem, which is surely not synonymous with a lack of ornamentation. if you put some space between the notes, you can vary attack and note length, in order to add lift. I'd make a video, but I'm stuck at my parents house right now. my car broke down and I'm waiting for it to be fixed, so no concertina.