varney
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Posts posted by varney
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And as if to chime in with Greg's incantation of try, try again I found this morning the low B reed has resumed its stalling! I guess whatever reshaping my tinkering cause went and straightened out overnight and now it's acting exactly the same as before.
It would certainly be handy if there was a way to test the reed 'in the air' so to speak. If not, and it means bolting and unbolting the ends, then I'll soldier on in hopes of resolving the problem....
Michael.
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Hey Presto! After posting my last I took the reed out again ( it's actually the low B - not A as I mistakenly said earlier ) and gave it a few more delicate pushes down through the frame, replaced it and it's now playing every time....
Thanks for the help, Greg..
Michael
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Thanks Greg.........I have Dave's book and in his reed fault finding section there are two descriptions which seem to cover the problem I'm having:
REed stalls on initial button press or if playing loudly
or
Reed is slow to speak or 'breathy'
Both are caused by the gap between the tongue tip and the frame being too small. The suggestion is to tension the tongue by pushing it down with a wooden probe.
I tried pushing the reed tongue tip back through its slot a couple of times but am unsure how often to do this or by how much it needs to be depressed. The suggestion is to do it 'several' times, but I just wanted to check with people here in case I bend the bloody thing completely out of shape!
After I've tensioned the tongue do I have to put it back in the reed pan and bolt the end back on to check it, or is there a way to do this outside the instrument?
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The low A on the left hand side of my lachenal anglo ( i.e. fifth button down on inside row ) has been giving me trouble. When I draw the note on its own it's fine but when I try to do it in combination with another note ( usually the B top button, centre row, right hand side ) it won't start or starts late ( almost when bellows is fully expanded ).
After I've tried this a couple of times the reed won't sound at all until I press and draw it in combination with another adjacent low note and then it rights itself and plays okay on its own until I try it in combination with the B again. I've cleaned the reed and put a new valve in.... anyone got any other suggestions?
Thanks...
Michael
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Thanks Bob,
I'm thinking that amount of work would hardly make changing the springs worthwhile!
The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that I really need to start from scratch with this Lachenal - pads, valves, bushings, air leak, new bellows etc before even deciding if the springs need replacing. Grappling with an air leak on one side is the wrong time to even think of lighter springs.
As I'm currently travelling in the states it's really the wrong time to take the instrument apart and strip it down so the overhaul will have to wait until I get home and have my better metal-ended Lach to play while this other one is worked on.
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Very good Jim! Will need to title my messages a little more thoughtfully....??!
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Very good, Bob!
As I play bouzouki mainly I've always felt there must be some use I could put my old strings to when they come off the instrument. Now I've found one!
I would have thought steel string of gauges .016/.017 would be too light to make lever springs, but I've never tried out a new concertina by Bob or any of the other top guys, so I'm assuming the super fast action must ( in part ) be down to very light springs....?
The springs on my Lachenals are pretty hefty and no doubt contribute to it's sluggish response. Would you or Dana recommend replacing these with handmade ones as demonstrated in the workshop movie, or are the Lachenal levers going to be a problem for springs that light?
Michael.
PS Dana - where can I buy string steel of the kind you spoke about?
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Are my eyes going funny, or is Bob Tedrow's assistant using a D'Addario gauge .017 steel string to cut springs from here:
http://hmi.homewood.net/video/springbender.MOV
?????
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Frank,
Thanks for the words of encouragement! I was thinking that very thing about the bellows being more pressurised if the end leak is sealed. I'm working to get a new bellows ( or even an old replacement ) but want to do a rebind and a patching job on the current one just for experience. I also hate to throw anything away that has survived on an old instrument.
With that in mind, I won't be crumbling off the leather nuts but will try to clean and reuse them. I'll certainly look into finding something like you suggested or adapting those sold by the Erie Organ Co. ( why are all the organ supply companies in Pennsylvania??!!)
Incidentally , can you tell me if the Carinis in Italy are the ones who supply basic black leather concertina bellows? I see a couple of people offering them for sale and am trying to find out where they come from.
Many thanks for taking the time to help me with this, FRank. I'll post my progress...
Michael.
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Perhaps the tape is not doing the job you thought it was. You best bet would be to seal the edges where the action board meets the walls of the box with carefully applied glue. I use Weldbond as it is very vicose and is good for sealing small leaks. Probably the hide glue has dried out and cracked over the years. Use a very fine applicator, like the broad end of a toothpick. Next, replace the pads. Make sure you have "pad mounts" on the tops of each pad. These are small cicles of leather which allow the pad-to-mechanism joint to remain flexible for a better seal. Check to see that each pad is sealing by blowing through the vent hole from the back side. You can make a tool for doing this using brass tubing a small bit of wood and some leather for a seal, but you can get by without it. Check to see the spring pressure is OK if you have replaced the pad and some of the vent holes still leak. Lachenals are very difficult to make very airtight, compared to some other makes, but you should be able to make some significant improvement.
Hi Frank,
thank you for the fast and helpful reply. I used a clear plastic packing tape as I thought masking tape might be too weak or porous. Had thought of using gaffa tape but that stuff is relatively thick and would create a gap of its own between chamber wall tops and base of the action board.
"............. seal the edges where the action board meets the walls of the box......"
Are you saying glue up the small opening between the frame edge around the action board and its hexagonal base? I will certainly try that but I had thought taping this up along with the pad holes would have revealed either / both as the problem. Perhaps the tape was the problem.....
The pads do need replacing so that will be the next job. Is the 'pad mount' the smaller disc of leather which connects between the pad and the lever? There are gunky corroded bulbuous things on the end of the levers which I feel need replacing. Are these 'sampers'? What do you use to make them?
Thanks again....
Michael.
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I'm in the process of trying to restore a 30 button mahogany ended lachenal which has a worn bellows. Have ordered some very fine sheepskin leather to rebind the bellows which have been temporarily patched to allow me play the instrument. It lacks air which is obviously due to the worn bellows, but there's also a great draught of air coming through the left grille when the bellows is pushed shut.
I've read back through the forum and found some similar situations where this was dealt with. I've tried several of the suggestions:
1. Lifted chamois on bellows frame interior and packed with thin card to make reed pan sit tightly in the frame.
2. Ensured corner blocks are holding reed frame at the right height to form a good seal with the base of the pad board.
3. Ensured chamois on top of reed chamber walls is roughed up to help form a good seal.
None of these seemed to help the situation so I put tape over all the pad holes in case worn springs were allowing the pads to lift with air pressure from the bellows. To my surprise this only marginally stopped the gust of air which seems to escape the left hand side. There's a small gap between the body of the pad board and the glued- on edging at one point on the underside. I had thought this to be the certain culprit, but when I taped this AND the pad holes it still made no difference to the air escaping.
Can anyone suggest any other things I might try?
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Thanks again folks for the very helpful advice.
I've ordered some pieces of 0.2mm from Columbia which I think should do the job. I think I may wait until I get back home from my trip here in the states, and do the repair properly as it means I can let the bindings dry and still have another concertina to hand for playing.
I found a helpful shop in Chicago - I. Sachs and Son - who have a big old style store with vast rows of shelves filled with every kind of leather. I was able to buy a full lambskin hide there which is very thin and supple and will certainly be useful for some other leather work. I was looking for various scraps and pieces for case handles and instrument straps. The guy send me upstairs and said "see what you can find". The upper floor was a vast stockroom with box upon box of scrap leather sheets, belts, cord, skins etc etc. I filled a large grocery bag with loads of different pieces for about $10....
I thought the Scharfix was a simple hand tool for skiving but I see now it's a piece of expensive machinery which is way beyond my needs. I bought a skiving knife in Sachs but even a preliminary bit of work with it demonstrates just how much labour would go into doing all the strips for a rebind. I'll see if I can find a better solution but one that isn't near as expensive as the Scharfix.
Thanks again to everyone...
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Thank you both for the really helpful advice.
I just realised the Columbia Organ Leather Co. is in Pennsylvania, not British Columbia as I somehow had managed to presume!
I spoke with a really nice guy there ( Larry ) who was very helpful and mentioned that concertina people provide him with the weirdest requests for leather sizes and arrangements. If I'm buying leather to re-bind the bellows what size and type should I go with? From reading around I see the preference is for 3/4 inch goatskin (?), but what thickness should this be? I saw 0.2mm listed somewhere but Larry says this would be too thin to skive further.
What would you guys recommend? Is zephyr leather better again ( though much more expensive?)
Thanks,
Michael.
PS - Dana - what's CPL?
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Hi Folks,
Does anyone know where I could pick up some skived leather for bellows repairs? I'm in the US travelling around but will be in Chicago tomorrow and thought it might be possible to find a store or leather supplier where I could walk in a buy some pieces?
As I say, I'll be travelling around the east of the country ( Hartford, Vermont, New York etc ) so if I can't find some in Chicago then maybe people could recommend a source where I might be able to drop in and buy the leather?
Many thanks...
Michael.
If you are just looking for patching leather and the like, try columbia organ leathers. They have a lot of different thicknesses of different sorts of leather, some of which would be suitable for interior work. If you are looking for stuff to replace top runs etc, then it depends a lot on the type of leather you want what thicknesses are readily available. Check bookbinders suppliers. They sell "Skivers" sometimes usually sheepskin which is weak cross grain so you need to orient it properly. most of the rest of what they sell is too heavy and needs to be split. Skiving generally refers to the tapering of the edges of leather or other things and needs to be done to the edges of bellows parts so they don't create ridges in the finished result. In general "Splitting" refers to creating leather of a specific desired thickness. A lot of the thin leather is also very soft ( kid and glove leather ). I don't like to use it, but the better leathers like Goat and Calf are hard to find in the right thicknesses for bellows work. Some people use a Scharfix to thickness their parts as well as to skive the edges. I ended up getting a used band knife splitter so I could make each of the parts the thickness I wanted and not be at the mercy of whatever was available.
Dana
Thanks, Dana.
I've heard about Columbia Organ Leathers and they seem to have all the right materials. Only problem is they're in Canada and I'd have to have stuff shipped which won't really work so well on my travels here in the US.
I'm trying to get thin leather to patch the top runs on a Lachenal and tomorrow I'm in Chicago. I'll certainly try looking up bookbinders suppliers as you suggested. Thanks for the tips on the different leathers and methods of splitting / skiving. Will have to look up 'Scharfix'!
Michael.
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Hi Folks,
Does anyone know where I could pick up some skived leather for bellows repairs? I'm in the US travelling around but will be in Chicago tomorrow and thought it might be possible to find a store or leather supplier where I could walk in a buy some pieces?
As I say, I'll be travelling around the east of the country ( Hartford, Vermont, New York etc ) so if I can't find some in Chicago then maybe people could recommend a source where I might be able to drop in and buy the leather?
Many thanks...
Michael.
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Hi Tmaccar,
Is it buttons for a 20 or 30 key lachenal you need? Is there a problem with the chrome plated buttons already on it?
Michael.
PS Whereabouts in Sligo are you located?
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Can anyone tell me how to get download this Pathe News clip on concertinas:
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=417
I'd like to have a copy on my machine (mac) if it's possible....
thanks...
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Really lovely............ Did you make the bellow's papers yourself?
I haven't got as far as doing the bellow's papers on my own concertina but am interested to hear any tips you have for making / attaching them....
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You could remove the old papers very carefully with minimal amounts of water and an infinite supply of cocktail sticks, but frankly, life's too short. Leave the old ones alone, rebind the ridges, and then paste new papers over the lot.
Thanks Dave,
I have to confess I had that in mind as the easy option but didn't want to mention it lest there be howls of outrage from the skilled restorers.
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Hi Richard,
It's disappointing to see you didn't get any help here. I was keeping an eye on your thread to find out how it resolves, and when you do get it sorted please post the results.
I really thought you had sourced the cause of the problem when you repaired the crack.
I've done a fair bit of restoring on two Lachenal Anglos ( you'll see posts by me in various forums here ) and have managed to fix a lot of problems thanks to help from people here, the concertina manual or just persistently working at it.
The 'B' note sounding might not necessarily be the pad for the actual note. I had a problem with a note sounding constantly which turned out to be air leaking into that reed chamber due to the top of the chamber wall not meeting the underside of the action board tightly. I cut a piece of replacement chamois leather and glued it over the existing piece on top of the bellows wall and it works perfectly now.
By the way, did you try swopping the 'pinging' reed around with another of the same note to see if the problem still happens? At least that would eliminate the reed catching its frame as a possible cause....
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On a side issue - I've seen it recommended that new bellow's papers be fitted when rebinding. Do people remove the old bellow's papers first and then rebind? If so, what's the best method to take them off?
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Thank you both,
I calculated 1915 after finding the page on the forum for working out Lachenal dates. I thought I was getting it wrong though, and was happy to settle for 1897.
Now that I look at the instrument it does have a WW1 / 1915 era look to it! I know that doesn't make sense but it just doesn't strike me as Victorian in appearance.
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Thanks Dana,
I managed to solve the problem.........It turned out to be a pad slightly off centre which was leaking air to its corresponding and adjacent chamber. When I opened the end up in the daylight I could see the very slight gap where the pad wasn't meeting the hole.
The slightly off hex was worrying me but I can see the same thing is the case on the right hand side, and I supposed it's down to slight warping over the years.
Now I just have to try and solve some issues with the various reeds. Time for a new thread!!
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Thanks folks,
I have a 20 key lachenal anglo for the last few months which I've done a retune on already and got it pretty much bang on concert pitch. When I got the metal ended Lachenal I felt capable of getting it to A440, and after spending a lot of hours on it I've managed to do so. Some of the reeds do sound a little muffled while others sing out, but this was the case before I even started...
I know more experienced restorers and builders aren't too keen on amateurs tinkering on old instruments, but if we don't how are ever going to learn?
Different kind of air leakage
in Instrument Construction & Repair
Posted
Having chased down various kinds of air leaks on this Lachenal 30 key ( pads, bellows, crack in pad board, ) I now find there's air escaping where the bellows frame meets the wooden ends. Visually they look fine but putting ones face close and opening and closing the bellows reveals little gusts of air at various points. I've tried brushing up the nap of the chamois around the top of the bellows frame but It hasn't really done a lot. The end bolts are tightened properly and I know they shouldn't be overtightened so I'm not going to try that.
Looked through Dave's book but couldn't see anything which deals with this problem.
Would lifting the chamois all the ways around and putting a thin shim of soft card along the top walls of the bellows frame be an option? Sounds a little invasive, and I can visualise this creating a small gap between the bolt hole in the chamois and the bolt plate in the frame.
Any suggestions folks?