AlexCJones
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Posts posted by AlexCJones
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All the notes do sound the same whichever way the bellows are working.
Hmm, now it does sound a little like some kind of duet concertina. Are the rows of buttons lined up anything like this? (see attached diagram):
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Oh, I think I forgot to mention that I also plan to make diagrams for those layouts for which diagrams have not been made yet. These diagrams will indicate the notes in both Note+Octave notation and standard music staff notation. Then, I'll make web pages to display these diagrams and post them somewhere to share them with you all and the rest of the world.
yes, I forgot about that list. Thanks Mark. I can make diagrams for those listed there too.Ken Coles' article... -
Now I know that finding a consensus on commonly accepted names is too ambitious a goal a this point. My reason for my post is so that when I invest in a really nice concertina, I can look for one with a key layout closest to my liking. Knowing the names is not as important as knowing what exists -- and that is what I still want to know.
The 39-button Jeffries layout shown on Suttner's site has notes in places that I would find more useful than on my 40-button Bastari. Also, I've heard that there is a such thing as a 44-button Anglo, so I want to know what its layout is as (as well as those of all variations of Anglos).
So, now I am collecting names of sources where I might find such diagrams.
I am buying a copy of Anglo Concertina Demystified by Bertram Levy and I have the Pretty Complete Guide to Squeezeboxes by Wendy Morrison, so if anyone wants to add more books showing different layouts to that list, then it would be helpful. Meanwhile here is my list of links so far:
From concertina.net:
Keyboard diagram of the 40 key anglo-chromatic concertina
From http://www.suttnerconcertinas.com/catalogue.html:
- Wheatstone: 31-key, GIF | 31-key, PDF
- Jeffries:31-key, GIF | 31-key, PDF
- Jeffries:39-key, GIF | 39-key, PDF
Does anyone know of any other links to key layout diagrams? I am most interested in ones of layouts not shown in those above.
Does anyone know of any layouts not shown any links or litterature? If so, it would be great if you can post them here. When using text, please indicate the notes in notename+octave number format, where C4 = "Middle C". (For example "F#3" would be F-sharp below middle C, and Bb5 would be 2 B-flats below middle C.) So the 31-key Wheatstone C/G Anglo would look like this:
Left side top row:
(E3/F3) (A3/Bb3) (C#4/Eb4) (A4/G4) (G#4/Bb4)
Left side middle row:
(C3/G3) (G3/B3) (C4/D4) (E4/F4) (G4/A4)
Left side bottom row:
(B3/A3) (D4/F#4) (G4/A4) (B4/C5) (D5/E5)
Left side thumb button:
(C4/C4)
Right side top row:
(C#5/Eb5) (A5/G5) (G#5/Bb5) (C#6/Eb6) (A6/F6)
Right side middle row:
(C5/B4) (E5/D5) (G5/F5) (C6/A5) (E6/B5)
Right side bottom row:
(G5/F#5) (B5/A5) (D6/C6) (G6/E6) (B6/F#6)
Thanx!
- Alex
- Wheatstone: 31-key, GIF | 31-key, PDF
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Could you attach an image file (.jpg, .gif) of a photo of it?
you likely have a very nice concertina that can command a good chunk of change,Dang! Why'd you have to tell him?
Ah! He probobly already knew. -
The worst I've seen on ebay was an item being sold as a "Jews harp". I know a Jews harp (juice harp, jaw harp, gewgaw, trump, maultrommel, morchung, kubyz, kubing...) when I see one. That item was most certainly a cork-puller.
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I like to play chords on my lef hand and melody or other note on my right. I've been doing that with a C/G 30-key Tedrow-Modified Stagi with Wheatstone layout. Right when I was trying to decide whether to invest in an Edgley, a Tedrow or a Herrington, I developed a thirst for more buttons.
So, I recently bought a used G/D 40-key Bastari, but the lowest button on the left side D-row gives G3 on the draw instead of an E3. This G3 is duplicated with the drone key, so now I know that more buttons is not better unless they are the right ones.
From a post a few months ago, Roger Digby told of a Jeffries with 44 buttons, and with the left side thumb button providing notes I would find more useful than the drone. In another current thread, I was introduced to the Jeffries 31-key layout whose right side top row provides note I would find more useful than those extra high ones.
I will need to collect descriptions/diagrams of the different layouts used on Anglos, then invest in a good one with a layout I would find most useful.
Yes, I am also trying to learn the MacCann duet, but Anglos (with the push/pull system and most of the buttons lined up under the fingers) allow you to play more notes while reducing the amount of finger movement needed. (Yes, this is a change of opinion on my part. I have grown wiser since that time I called duet concertinas "superior").
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Okay, by now I am used to seeing items on ebay listed as concertinas that are really melodeons. But there is just something even more wrong in this case. The seller says that it "works well" but from the pictures, I see evidence to the contrary...
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I think with the home recording technology currently available, it would an interesting exercise to compile those tunes to CD.I cannot advice about how to do it.
Would find very intersting to me to have copies opf the tapes or a CD.
Please advise iof there is any posibility to get one or the other
Dub tapes to CD? That's exactly what I did for the Allan Day tutor. I used some noise reduction software tools, (and I am currently shopping for some better ones as DX plug-ins for Sound Forge.)
Just how many minutes/hours of music are we talking about?
Alex C. Jones
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And in the left hand you get a low A on the bottom button pull of the G-row, rather than a duplicate D, which means you can play a chord of A minor in both directions.
I agree. The first time I played a 30-key with the duplicate D, I thought it was a mistake.
Now if I look a the 2 layout diagrams from the Suttner site that Henk provided, they show both the Wheatstone and the Jeffries layouts with the nice Low A on the left side.
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C3/G10 G10/B14 C15D17 E19/F20 G22/A24 A#25/C#16
Okay, whenever I have seen notes designated as characters plus numbers, the characters indicate the name of the note, and the number is the name of the octave. The standard has C0 = 16.3516Hz and middle C (261.6256Hz) is designated as C4.
Since G10 (25087.7150Hz) is already higher than most humans can hear, and your highest is G46, I gather that you using the combination of characters and numbers in some other way to designate notes.
Can you please explain how your system works? Where does your system come from?
- Alex
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Back to the original subject in this thread...
I would attend a December/January Squeeze-in in Hawai`i!
I have never been to any of the Polynesian Islands, though for the past 2 years I have been studying Tahitian Drumming, and for the past year I have been studying Hawaiian Hula and Hawaiian `Ukulele (all under the same teachor) here in Chicago, (north central USA).
(If anyone else is currently in the Chicago area, you can see us on December 13 at the annual Christmas Around the World presentation at the Museum of Science and Industry.)
So Hawai`i would be great. If it must be in Fiji, maybe I can make that part of a Polynesian trip.
- ALex
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When trying out a friend’s new 30-button Anglo built by one of the reputable builders in North America, I was horrified to find that that lowest key on the left side G-row did not give a low A on the draw, but gave a D – the very same pitch from the C-row middle button in the draw direction. I thought this had to be a mistake, since mine give a Low A on the draw for that button. While a D at that location and direction is common for a 20-button, I was surprised to find that on a 30-button. I realized that it was not a mistake when I noticed that these diagrams by Mark Steyton show it to be the D: Color-Coded Button Layouts for C/G and G/D 30-Button Anglo Concertinas using the Wheatstone / Lachenal System . The Paul DeVille book and the Roger Watson book show it as a low A, so I gather that neither layout is a mistake and both are fairly common.
The Roger Watson Book calls the layout with the low-A, a “Wheatstone”, while the diagrams by Mark Steyton calls the one with the D a “Wheatstone/Lachenal” layout. This labeling suggests that the Wheatstone and Lachenal layouts are the same thing, and that they both have the D, while the label in the Roger Watson book contradicts that. The Wendy Morrison book (Pretty Complete Guide to Squeezeboxes) shows both layouts, but does not indicate names for them.
To make things even more confusing, in another thread, some folks consider a left-side thumb button providing an F on the push to be standard, though the few concertinas I have seen with a left side-thumb button has it as a C in both directions.
The only article about layouts I could find on Concertina.net is one about the chromatic row.
So, my questions are:
Do the two most common 30-key layouts have commonly accepted names that distinguish them from each other? If so, what are they?
Are there a names for common 31-key, 40-key, and others to distinguish those with a left-side thumb button as a tonic drone from those whose left-side thumb buttons provide a subdominant on the push?
Has anyone published any diagrams that show each of the variations and the commonly accepted names that distinguish them?
Are there any that have not been named or have multiple names?
Attached is a diagram showing both layouts for the 30-button C/G's
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Boxing Clever: A Concertina Compilation
Milestones 9904, no date given; circa 1999
John Kirkpatrick, Tim Laycock, Dick Miles, Harry Scurfield: concertinas; with Pauline Abbott (vocals) and John Wren (harmonica)
Review by Ken Coles, June 2001 on Concertina.net
Strike the Bell by Tom and Chris Kastle. The concertina is not really the main featured insturment on this recording of maritime songs, but Tom plays it on many of them. Okay, I am a little biased, since I am an alum of Tom's concertina class, and every year I take their Sea Shanties class. Never heard of them? Here: Tom and Chris Kastle
Also, (of course!) Bridges by Frank C. & Frank J. Edgley (with Brian & Leon Taheny).
The only ones I have ever heard are those I just mentioned, others by the Kastles, Steam by John Williams, a compilation of Welsh squeezebox music called Megin, and I think that is about it. Well, my favorite band, the Oyster Band often have concertina in their songs.
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And by the way, a Bronx cheer to asking for the most expensive thing you can think of, instead of what you really want.
Oh, alright! In that case (remember, with each instrument comes the ability to play it, or at least time to learn it):
- A set of Northumbrian Pipes
- A 44-button Jeffries anglo that allows me to make a strong subdominant on the push (which Roger Digby considers to be standard).
- A chromatic button accordion whose bass chords can growl like those of a diatonic accordion, and some treble switches that allow the treble notes to sound like a cajun accordion (for when the 'cajun demands), and allows me to use it as a MIDI controller if I want to play synthesized sounds.
If the genie told me that one of them were not possible, and I had to choose something else, I would choose a violin/fiddle.
- A set of Northumbrian Pipes
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1. A Hurdy-Gurdy, like the one that Stefan Brisland-Ferner of Garmarna plays. Those things are so expensive, so it would be best to ask for one from the genie.
2. A 44-button Jeffries that allows me to make a strong subdominant on the push (which Roger Digby considers to be standard). That probably costs more than I'll get for my car, and they seem hard to find, so I'd better ask the genie.
3. The most programmable MIDI-controlled sound modules (allowing all types of synthetic sound design posible) with THIS as a MIDI controller (yes, that is a hyperlink, so click on it).
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I just saw this one on ebay and remembered your post here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...3&category=1289
- Alex
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Just an update on the status of the CD version. I thought I would have it finished Sunday night, and ready to send, but I am still working on it. If I manage to take a vacation day tomorrow, then I should have it done then. Here comes my boss, I better get back to work now.
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My local cobler, (Tony in Oak Park Illinois) made and installed the new straps on this one for $10.
I hope you can find one in Columbia, Missouri who can do the same.
- Alex
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Hi Alan!
I also want to thank you too. It's great!
I never would have thought that one could play such nice sounding music on a 20-button.
If you want me to send some $$ in your direction I would not mind.
Now, if anyone else on this North American continent wants a copy, I can make a copy and send it to them instead of you having to pay to ship more copies overseas. But Alan, I would only do so with your permission or at your request.
Also, I can record it to my hard drive and create a CD of it. I can send you some copies if you'd like that. (I would only distribute them at your request).
- Alex
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You only HAVE to have 30 buttons if you have to play in keys other than G and C. If you learn on a 20 button you can easily transition to 30 because the G and C rows will still be the same. The added outside row gives you sharps and flats so you can play in other keys.
That's only if you just play melodies without the chord accompaniment. If you want to use chords on the left hand, then a 30-key is a must, since the low F to make the strong F major chord on the draw is in the top row, and there are also the reverse A/G keys in the top row allowing you to make an A minor on the push.
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Can anyone give me some input on a concertina I'm looking at on EBay? It's number is 2561170529 and the seller says that the brand is Maestro. Any thoughts? I think it's an English but it may be a an Anglo
It is a 30-key Anglo.
It might be an okay one to start out with. But, if someone bids it up higher than $200, then would you be interested a Riccordi (Bastari) 30-button Anglo in C/G?
(photo attached).
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Marty,
At one point you said this:
I wanted a 20 button Anglo...that help?I have one that I was thinking of selling on eBay for a low starting bid ($10) and no reserve. I paid $100 for it at a local music store (when I knew nothing about concertinas, and before I learned that others called the store owner a "crook"). It never was worth the price I paid. Even when it was new, I had to have it tuned.
My conscience prevents me from selling it for more than $40 (unless it is on ebay, since it would be the fault of the chump who runs the bidding higher than that).
It's one of those chinese-made ones. Here is a photo attached.
Oh, yeah, it is a C/G 20-button Anglo, made with some kind of accordion reeds.
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I guess you are now clear on the difference between Anglo, English, and Chemnitzer, but if you want to see pictures and discriptions of the differences, here's where I recommend looking:
- Alex C. Jones
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Topic wise, we are sort of circling back to the subject in a different thread, from which I spun off this thread.
I mentioned that I was getting a 40-button, because of the limitations of the 30-button, and that I like to use the left side for chords.
One of the advantages of the 40 button as shown by this diagram (Keyboard diagram of the 40 key anglo-chromatic concertina), is that it allows a subdominant on the push (though this diagram shows it on the G-row, not as a thumb button).
So, it seems that If I intend to play English Style Anglo, I should use a 40-button (or 31+ button Jeffires), since the subdominant push seems to be required, as I conclude from some of the posts in this thread. I have already purchased 1 40-button G/D Bastari, and it is on its way and I am still interested in a 40 button C/G (for under $2000, or under $600 if made with accordion reeds). If I play it often enough (or if I sell my car), then I'll consider spending the $5000+ (or £3000+) on a 40+ button Jones, Lachenal, Crabb, Wheatstone, Dipper or Jeffries.
Meanwhile, I am going to spin off another thread about button note layouts (since there are disagreements and descrepensies about these, even without mentioning thumb buttons).
Jeffries Multibutton Concertina
in Buy & Sell
Posted · Edited by AlexCJones
Meanwhile, here is a Crane/Triumph Duet chart (attached).
Mr. Turnball? Does the key layout resemble anything like the diagrams I have attached?
Can you attach can image of the instrument? If you do not have a digital camera, then can ask a friend or nearby family member who does? If the image file is larger than 120K, I can give you step-by-step instructions on how to reduce its size (or you can email them to me directly, and I can do it for you.).
The sooner people can see pictures of it, the sooner someone will be ready to make you an offer for it. A picture of each end of the instrument, plus a view of the bellows extended is usually what concertina buyers want to see.
- Alex