jjj

It was always my ambition to create an easy to learn and play accordion type musical instrument, but it took me ages to get my act together. Finally, step by step I built the DIY components for it: 1) I converted a 120-button accordion bass to Midi. (Below is a Mp3 sample of it) 2) From 3 PC plates I created a 6x6 JANKO keyboard (Below see Pics of it) 3) I created a WYSIWYG notation for it (similar to Klavar notation). It can't get any easier (!!) and to make it sound like a real accordion I got myself the latest XXL MASTER ACCORDION from V3 sound modules, pairing it with an equally excellent MidiToolEx software and voilà, now I'm enjoying the sound of 206 top accordions at a fraction of Roland Midi accordion's costs. Besides, the XXL Master Accordion sound module has the best bandoneon sound I ever heard (trust my hearing or check it on Youtube) In case anyone of you would like to have some more details, please feel free to contact me. To accelerate the notation conversion I would need to find a programmer for it. Audio.mp3

...I tried to achieve is more uniformity. Ideally the whole chromatic scale should be in one row. Not really, because its black keys are half the widths of the white keys and 10mm above the white keys. That makes it hard/ impossible to establish a uniform pattern, such as isomorphic layouts offer. I want to cut down on practicing scales. My layout offers all of that, without the need of relearning a new layout. Maybe you didn't have a thorough look at my proposed Kbd layout... (?)

Hi m3838, It has some graphic similarity, but not quite the same. All I tried to achieve is more uniformity. Ideally the whole chromatic scale should be in one row. Unfortunately, human hands/ fingers are too short to span chords on a chromatic scale of one row. Thus, my question was: how to approximate the black keys and therefore think, it's the best one can do under given circumstances? The main bit is to equalize the size and levels of keys and there too, I did what was possible. I don't like the idea of varying volume dynamics via keys and prefer to do it via the bellow or other similar means. That allows for only 3mm key down. Today's electronics even allows for touch switches. All these technical advances allow us to design a totally new, innovative Kbd layout. The greatest advantage of my layout is that it doesn't require relearning, which non-of the other layouts is able to claim. Is there anything else my layout could be amended with? Enjoy my latest recording samples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQpI6RsPo8k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNoG4-vowBM On the 4th of next month, I'll be performing "Liberace's Ave Maria" in our local church http://www.fotolog.com/fotosdechile/12918202 I have to carefully adjust my MP3 player, as not to put on Elvis Presley's Rock'n Roll...

Greetings from Chile, to all you wonderful "Concertinos y Concertinas" (...sorry, I'm forced to speak Spanish now), In my eternal struggle to find the elusive Kbd layout, which suits my 'two left hands', I come to realize that even the Janko layout cause me months of relearning problems. Maybe I'm already too old for that sort of change? Yet, having had another good look onto the trusty, traditional zebra piano layout, I came up with some bright moments, which procured some interesting results. So, have a look at my latest "isomorhesized" traditional Kbd idea and it's advantages over the conventional piano layout: 1) All keys are of the same size. 2) All key are almost of the same level. 3) Far easier key transposition. 4) Black and white keys are nearer each other. 5) Key down/ up travel is only 3mm. *) 6) The keyboard is shorter. 7) Keyboard edges are rounded for easy gliding. 8) No relearning needed (!!) 9) It is Klavarskribo notation compatible. 10) The "dead" keys lay 3mm lower than the white keys and can be made to trigger MIDI messages. *) Dynamic volume, tremolo etc. variations should be done (like singers or accordion players) or via a knee/ foot lever, breath control etc. Ideally, this layout could be adapted to an old/new accordion keyboard. I.e., glue-gun gluing little, thin pieces of firm carton for the black keys and little, flat wooden distance pieces to the white accordion keys. The new wooden key tops are then glued with a good universal glue (such as UHU) on top of it. This glue gives us time to perfectly align the key tops. ---------------- The new Kbd layout can also be adapted to any Synth. All you would need to do is to glue little wooden distance pieces under the end of each key (near their electronic contacts) so, that it makes contact at 3mm key down and the black keys have to be 3mm higher than the white keys. (Now they are 10mm at your Synth!!) Once you got these levels right, you can hot glue thin pieces of firm carton on top of the black keys and little, flat wooden distance pieces to white keys of the accordion keys, using glue gun. The new, thin, wooden, rounded edged key tops are then glued with a good universal glue (such as UHU) on top of it. This glue gives us time to perfectly align the key tops. Also, using glue gun to bond to the accordion key surface, allows you to remove the lot later on (with a hair dryer) without damaging the keyboard surface, in case we change our minds. Remember, that the black keys should only be 3mm higher than the white keys. The new, thin, wooden, rounded edged key tops are then glued with a good universal glue (such as UHU) on top of it. This glue gives us time to perfectly align the key tops. Also, using glue gun to bond to the accordion key surface, allows you to remove the lot later on (with a hair dryer) without damaging the keyboard surface, in case we change our minds. Remember, that the black keys should only be 3mm higher than the white keys. So, it would only be a... glue job (no electronics job) !!! Well, that's my latest progress and I thought of letting you know about, because it offers us some food for thought. jjj

You don't understant, medical studies found that real acoustic instrument has therapeutic qualities. While sound from loudspeakers doesn't. Loudspeakes don't produce anything except noise. Musicians do. Enough said. Our bodies only perceive frequencies... and it doesn't matter how these frequencies are generated. More important is that these frequencies are harmonically and melodically of good quality as to be emotionally beneficial. Bad reeds, strings, loudspeaker cones, etc. or distorted sounds have a bad therapeutic effect, whereas good music from a stereo unit has beneficial effect. Chances are it might be "your own recorded music' (!) unless your music is that badly played that it makes you sick... then your claim, namely that your own music would make the loudspeakers "produce anything except noise", is correct. So, it really doesn't matter if the frequencies are generated by reed or string vibrations or speaker cone vibrations. Both are generated physically and reach our ear acoustically... and biologically. Therefore I cannot understand your point. Older type of electronic organs, actually generated their very own sounds. Since people got used to the sound of traditional instruments, organs tried to mimic those sounds; offering hobby musicians many instruments in one unit. The Hammond B3 was certainly a great success. With the advent of computers sampling technology was invented, allowing keyboard players to play digitally recorded sounds and so, faithfully emulate traditional instruments. The next evolutionary step will be the "perfection of all the great sounds" and the big boys, such as Roland, Wersi, Yamaha etc. are well positioned to make it happen. The know the shortcoming better than we both, because Yamaha also builds pianos, violins, trumpets etc. Yet, they know as well that computer technology is able to account for every nuance and variable. That's the point!

Your stereo unit, TV and radio doesn't produce its own sound either, yet is able to produce high quality music. Most of this music sounds far nicer and richer than the one your instrument can produce. To me its unimportant how the sound is produced, far more important is the sound quality and I am able to obtain and enjoy from an instrument.

Better tools enable us to get better faster and further. The V-Accordion can make forty unique accordion sounds and that, so authentic that it leaves professionals amazed and perplexed. I'm difficult to please, but I find the performance of this V-Accordion truly amazing and perfect. I cannot hear any shortcoming to acoustic accordions and if there's still is on, computer technology can remedy it. That was one of the first electronic instrument; sounding rather poor! What about the many electronic organs, such as the legendary Hammond B3 or latest Wersi organs, which followed? What about the evolution of Synth Kbds ? Yamaha's Tyros II is truly impressive. Yamaha and Roland now even have got have got breath controlled instruments, such as http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--YAMWX5 Mechanical instruments can change its shape and mechanism, but essentially are limited in their physical possibilities. The limiting factors usually are lack of space or excessive complexity. Computer technology overcomes both of these factors. Tasks like the mapping of the genetic gene was mechanically impossible; yet with computer technology successful! What makes you think computers are not better tools than mechanical tools, for solving complex tasks? Oscillators create the sound, filters shape the sound and amplifiers then feed the sounds into various loudspeakers and so, the sound becomes acoustically audible. Nothing funny about it. It's rather amazing how flexible and interesting electronic sounds can be. Latest digital technology goes even a step further in manipulating complex sound pattern and things getting better by the day. Yet, in stark contrast, little in the way of improvements happens to traditional, musical instruments. Computer technology moves at a much faster speed. Any PC you buy today is outdated in three month (!), because better PC's are being created at an incredible pace. Millions of creative PC professionals work on its evolution; in comparison... very few professionals work on improving traditional musical instruments. Only my Synth, because PA equipment is already installed in every venue. My Janko adapter is "mechanical". Did you not see how I built it? Here's the PDF with all details: http://www.live-styler.de/home/Janko%20Project.pdf I suppose the reason why I think that way is, because I have been a little longer around in this world than you and that makes me believe that tomorrow will raise the sun... Of course nothing is sure, but my life-experiences tell me, that if everything continues to go as it went in the past, we all have to continue to make a living and partake in nature's evolution process. In East Germany we had 5-year plans and got no-where!

As mentioned, I checked them out, but I wasn't exited about them, because there was nothing really revolutionary or great sounding about them. I mean all the other "old" instruments you before mentioned as "very new and rather modern" ones, sound far more interesting. I'm glad you worked that out. All depends, because even "only" 100 years there were almost no cars and planes around. Look were we are now! That's why you should trust in future progress and not getting bogged down in yesterday's progress. Yes and I invented good whistling ...or was it Adam whistling to Eve to fetch him another apple? That's alright with me, yet when it comes to considerable advancement of instruments computer guided musical instruments will have the edge, whereas the acoustic ones will just "stay put"!! That's, because mechanics can only go thus far and not further, whereas computer technology is unlimited. What still not is can be done, but only with the help of computers. It's, because every movement on Earth and in the Universe is based on logic; speak: Math and/ or digital calculators --> da, computers!) Hence, the latter are the better tools for getting us further, faster.

I suppose we all have our musical tastes and preferences. Mine happen to be interesting accordion, bandoneon, K. Wunderlich style organ music and emotionally meaningful, interesting orchestra music. 98% of classical music I find boring... Albeit MIDI instruments are still considered to be in their developmental stage, they progress rapidly. I still remember when the first MIDI keyboards came out. Look where they are now! Their progress is secured by incessant PC technological development. A lot of what was predicted ...really happened. Many cinemas closed, every household has a TV or two and most people get their news and entertainment more from TV than other media. Now with computers the shift is even more noticeable. I consider my PC a "tool", which helps me to do things faster and better. Thus, I plan to use it as a musical instrument. Things looking up! I'm sorry, but I don't find the new acoustic instruments you refer to (below, in YouTube) horribly boring sounding! Computers are now taking over all fields of human concern. There's no return to the dark ages, where we had to use mechanical or electro-mechanical typewriters and calculators. Now computer do a year's job in one hour or less! The same is going to happen in musically creative instrument. Sure, human emotions are rather complex issues and that's why computer technology is still trying to come to terms with it; yet, amazing progress has already been made. Regarding traditional notation: I'm quite happy with my innovative notation, for as long it helps my learning the Janko and Wicki layout and new, complex melodies. More I don't need. It's ideal for hobby musicians. I didn't write that, did I? What I wrote is that they "getting pretty close to the real thing"; i.e. that they come amazingly close to acoustic accordion, bandoneon etc, instruments. In fact they can emulate 40 different accordion and that pretty faithful. If that's not an achievement... I don't know "what is"! I prefer this V-accordion to any acoustic accordion, bandoneon. I like the Wersi and Yamaha's Tyros II sound, because it reminds me of K. Wunderlich's interpretations. I can't find these soundfonts anywhere, but one day they'll pop up on Russian pirate sides. DA, da, da tovarish, I'm truly confident that the day will come when traditional music instruments will be outperformed by MIDI instruments! Well stereo units don't have their own sounds either, yet when you insert a CD a whole orchestra plays your chosen master piece in great musical perfection. Many soundfonts are now that realistic that I derive great emotional satisfaction and joys from it. I avoid sound, which I don't find interesting sounding. Klaus Wunderlich wrote (after listening to 3 audio-cassettes of my whistling) that I have very good musical hearing and feeling. So, I'm easily offended by bad singers, sounds or music. I find the looks of electronic organs, Synth and accordions rather elegant and classy. Saxophone inveted by Adolphe Sax 1814 – 1894 // the ukulele, invented in Hawaii in 1879, // the banjo came from West Africa to America in the 17th Century. // Johann Christoph Denner invented the clarinet in 1690. // the concertina was invented by Charles Wheatstone, and the earliest examples, which he called the symphonium, were made in 1829. // The accordion was invented by Friedrich Buschmann in 1822 in Berlin // PIANO-FORTE was innvented by JC Schroder, of Dresden, in 1717 // >>> And you call these inventions "very new and rather modern, invented not so long ago..." ??? Oh God, you must be seriously out of touch with time, to say the least! Guess what? My computer made it easy to get this Info. I know it's not a "real messenger", but it does the same job; only easier and faster; same with MIDI instruments! So, the question is back to you: What made you think we live in the pinnacle of time? In other words, it's about time someone invents a new musical instrument, isn't it?! Since little or nothing worthwhile is forthcoming, I can safely assume that society reached the end of acoustic instrument evolution and we now looking forward enjoying "the era of creative computer music". Great, but it's nothing as revolutionary as the centuries ago, invented instruments you mentioned above. Kravtsov keyboard is new, but I cannot see how it betters the Janko or Wicki layout? Gabla bandoneon is an adaptation of chromatic accordion (both in C and B system) to bandoneon. Basically leaving off the accordion's bass side and replacing it with lower part of "split" treble side. Yet, such "inventions" are not real inventions; merely changes to existing instruments; making the instrument easier and better to play. That's the player's, not the inventor's problem.

My idol is the late organist Klaus Wunderlich. What do you think of his music? Well, you can hardly compare the two*), albeit it's also largely a matter of personal musical taste and preference. I didn't care so much about the music they play, but rather about the sounds these keyboards are able to produce. MIDI is is getting better by the day and definitely the way to go in future. The traditional musical instrument's evolution is "over" and "stay put"; i.e. not improvable anymore. Computers are (!) and thus, going to have the last word and laugh! My main objection to traditional notation is that it is too longwinded and undue complicated, whereas Klavarskribo is so obvious that even a novice is able to immediately read and find the notes on the keyboard. You can't do that with traditional notation. That proves that Klavarskribo is far more logical and ideal for keyboards, organs, Synth etc. *) Of course, emotional values reign supreme in musical creativity. Admittedly, today's MIDI instruments are still a long way off to allow perfect emotional control as it is possible with traditional music instruments. Therefore, Klaus Wunderlich did an amazing job! He knew how to incorporate "soul" into his electronic organ music... already 50 years back! Yet, look at Roland's V-Accordions now. They have "physical behavior modeling technology", doing a great job in getting pretty close to the real thing. (Watch their YouTube Demos) So, don't be surprised that soon more and more of the goodies, you might claim as "unique to traditional instruments", are going to be shared with MIDI instruments and trust me, the day will come when traditional music instruments will be outperformed by MIDI instruments!

It would be hard for me to learn Russian, yet if I had to do it and a good method would be available, maybe I would be able to do it as well. Yet, to be host my "disability to learn traditional notation" is more an aversion than anything else. I just dislike undue complexity and find it absurd. Particularly then, when a simple alternative, such as Klavarskribo, is available. You mean "learn to walk, before you can run?" Klavarskribo is a WYSIWYG piano notation, which is far more logically correct for the piano and Janko is far more logically correct as a piano layout than the zebra. To be honest, I tried traditional notation for a couple of years before, while learning the piano accordion at the military, but I didn't like it. There's too much "Math" involved! For me music is something purely emotional... no room for Math! In whistling to music my timing etc. comes naturally and it sounds spot or you disagree? Well my innovative W/H notation will do it for me. No, for the striking of strings mechanism can be varied. No need for the zebra layout. Janko does the same thing; only better! Did you had a look at the latest Yamaha Tyros 2 keyboard? I can easily adapt this keyboard to Janko or W/H and enjoy all the benefits plus Klavarskribo type of notation. Here are some interesting toys with latest MIDI for you to check out: http://wersi.organportal.com/CMS/index.php...1&Itemid=62 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaAkNfTl-k...AIRE-PLAY-SAMBA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSkP-GD7buA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8X3rf8dBHg Check out the Tyros 2 YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Mk2Rst4Y8 There are many more and I must admit that I love (prefer!) these toys to zebras and other boring toy sounds...

Reply to m3838 today's posting: Klavarscribo is a serious music notation; taught at the conservatory in Holland. I read it somewhere in Klavarskribo's pages; so, please don't insist in that I find in which pages! Klavarkribo has got everything traditional notation has; only better! The link http://www.box.net/public/g6v2ubkvp3 shows the chord patterns as I longed to see them. Only the fingering I need to work out and for that I don't need to waste time studying that awkward traditional notation. And where did you take the numbers of years from? Evan Lenz, MusicScienceGuy, my pianist sister and her husband, concert pianist Prof. Gerhard Erber', explain it all. Actually, I plan to make up a W/H button chart and a chord chart on a cardboard, showing vital chord patterns so, that I can look at it during play. Also, I'm going to create a few simple melodies on my innovative Wicki notation. That will help me to get over the initial theoretical and practical hurdles. Self is the man! having learned English in two months... Where you take the number of months from? Which is your mother tongue? Your claim makes me a "slow learner", for my Ger, Fre, Span and English is still far from good, after years of practice; whereas you made it in 2 months. That means you can learn 6 languages every year! Incredible stuff. Congrats! Now I also understand what you mean by "learning traditional notation in one month..." --> "Around the World in 80 Days" is another one!

m3838 wrote: I already have... Klavarskribo, because that one I studied in three satisfactorily perform on the zebra keyboard. The one you suggest would take me at least 3 month to understand and at least 10 years of 8 hrs. daily practice to satisfactorily perform on the zebra piano. Just right for career musicians... yet totally unfit for hobby musicians, like me. That I already solve in the meantime by increasing the Wicki pattern on my PC screen (see below). This problem I solved already by d/l it from: http://www.box.net/public/g6v2ubkvp3 I suppose I'm going to go for and practice both, the Janko and Wicki. As mentioned, all my electronic stuff is packed up and so, the only thing I can do this time (until I sell house, move and fit my workshop) is to unpack the Synth with the Janko keyboard on it and practice this one and as soon I'm able to get to my electronic stuff, I'll build this Wicki button keyboard. At least I have got the necessary passion and time for it. A good idea would be to create a flashcard chord learning program, which ask you to enter one of the three inversion of of a number of vital chord pattern. The great thing is, the Wicki, the CBA/BBA and Janko ask require learning only pattern of each chord and it's inversions in a major and minor scale, whereas the zebra asks for absurd 24 times more of the same! As mentioned, that suits music teachers... thank you, fine!

Maybe I threw in the towel too early... just, because of these difficult 4 note chord fingerings, which I might have badly evaluated? I have one more hope left: Do you have any W/H chord fingering charts of the most common chords and its inversions? Or where can I find them? Please remember I don't read traditional notation. It would be helpful if you could add the tricks how to simplify the fingerings of 4-note chords. Thanks to the W/H, it won't be too many, because I only need one in major, minor, 7th, Dim, Aug, and ?? in order to apply them to all other major and minor scales. Thx for the help.

Maybe I threw in the towel too early... just, because of these difficult 4 note chord fingerings, which I might have badly evaluated? I have one more hope left: Do you have any W/H chord fingering charts of the most common chords and its inversions? Or where can I find them? Please remember I don't read traditional notation. It would be helpful if you could add the tricks how to simplify the fingerings of 4-note chords. Thanks to the W/H, it won't be too many, because I only need one in major, minor, 7th, Dim, Aug, and ?? in order to apply them to all other major and minor scales. Thx for the help.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1034354 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brge8FXg_8I Just add your concertina sound to it and you're done!

I wished there would exist a chord fingering chart. Then I could settle for more ergonomic finger comfort. On the accordion and organ I love to use the G7 chord in almost every melody and it sounds great and fitting. Interesting! Having 20mm in diameter buttons make it even easier for the thumb, too. It sound like the W/H is better for some melodies and less suitable for others, but I like to replace the zebra piano layout with it...After following my mission... of finding that easiest to learn & play keyboard layout, I'm still pretty much bewildered. Considering the various advantages and disadvantages, I come to realize that the Janko seems to be not such bad deal after all. As mentioned, it offers me many features other layouts simply lack, such as 1) Key fingering ergonomically ideal 2) Faster to learn, for I already play the piano accordion 3) Ideal to implement Klavarskribo type notation 4) Easy to adapt to any Synth (no electronics involved) 5) Last, not least... my Synth Kbd. is already converted to Janko! Maybe I should stop searching for those illusive greener pastures...? I think my raving journey started from the day I discovered that other layouts offer easy scale transfer. That gave me new hope that I'm going to make it this time.

Correct! In the meanwhile I inquired if their MIDI accordions are mappable. They are not, they answered me, too. If I had to do it, I could do it regardless, but as you said for W/H layout their layout is pretty poor. In that case I would need to put another keyboard over the original. It all can be done, as you know.

The deal is off... for Roland wrote that W/H is not on! (It can only switch to: C-Griff Europe, C-Griff 2, B-Griff Bajan, B-Griff Fin, D-Griff 1, D-Griff 2) Sorry good ragtimer, you seem to confuse something here... Now the alarm clock rang... Well, I could buy one, but for the time being I'll try to do realize my own dream. Sadly, I'll have to forfeit the W/H idea and settle for Janko, instead, because I only yesterday discovered how difficult (unergonomic) the 4 note chords fingering in W/H is. It can be done electronically, by connecting the buttons via switches to a Synth. It might even be possible to do ti mechanically or at least electro-mechanically, via solenoids.

I only ever considered the W/H, the C-System (easier than Bayan) and Janko to replace the awkward zebra piano layout. Thanks to m3838 for drawing attention to the difficulty of playing four note chords. Even when my keyboard is going to have 20 mm in diameter buttons, it will be pretty hard learn the fingering patterns of 4 note chords. In fact the W/H fingering is even more complicated than the C-system's fingering. In this regard the lousy zebra piano is ergonomically far better off. These facts force me to reconsider the Janko, for it has both worlds: the advantage of layout uniformity and ergonomic comfort, albeit Janko's disadvantage is its hand span of only 1 1/2 octave. The zebra piano has even less hand span and sounds O.K., too. At last I'm able to start getting the facts right: -------------------------------------------------------------- W/H: 1) Hard to learn the fingering patterns of 4 note chords. 2) I have to learn from the whole system from "0" 3) Easy to implement Klavarskribo type notation 4) 4 to 5 octave hand span! =================== C-System: 1) Button fingering easier than W/H 2) I have to learn from the whole system from "0" 3) Very difficult to implement Klavarskribo type notation 4) Nearly 2 octave hand span! 5) Harder to learn than W/H (more irregular) =================== Janko: 1) Key fingering ergonomically ideal 2) Faster to learn, for I already play the piano accordion 3) Ideal to implement Klavarskribo type notation 4) Main disadvantage: hand span of only 1 1/2 octave! 5) Easy to adapt to any Synth (no electronics involved) =================== It would be nice if you great experts could scrutinize, enrich or amend my gathered facts. Thx jjj Note: Below the Wicki/Hayden layout is the C-system layout.

To asses and compare various layouts correctly knowledge of music theory is vital. Example: Albeit I'm bad at music theory, I am able to work out the following two comparisons between four diverse layouts: 1) The W/H allows a hand span of 4 to 5 octave; i.e. a greater hand span than the C/B-system and zebra piano keyboard. 2) The W/H incidentals are cleverly placed, whereas C/B- system's incidentals introduces an element of irregularity into its layout; making it harder to learn, whereas the zebra piano is totally irregular in its layout. Thus, I'm certain that experts will able to spot many more such discrepancies between diverse layouts. Maybe this kind of "advantage/ disadvantage chart" could be established in cooperation. As mentioned, just make up a chart where the C-system, the B-system (and other concertina layouts) are filed and mark the advantages by inserting a reference figure/number into its column, which details why this point is an advantage or disadvantage compared to other layouts. Something like that would be great. Ultimately the layout with the greatest number of advantages can be called "the best layout"! Once such a chart has been established it then can be amended any time. This way we all know where we stand. smile.gif Sorry, it's not what I'm after this time. I'm rather keen on finding out, which keyboard layout has (scientifically viewed) the smartest or logically most correct layout design, which necessarily will be the one with the most advantages over other keyboard layouts. I think Goran is a wise guy; he would be an asset to his forum. Please be so kind to call him back!

Actually, we all feel obliged to thank Wicki, Janko, Brian and all experienced concertina players for disclosing their wisdom. With scientific proof I meant (as mentioned) to actually apply music theory the practical way by comparison. For that one requires a fair amount of music theory knowledge and playing experience. If I'm not wrong, many of you have got what it takes. Also, I think it would be very interesting to see the result, don't you think so? I cannot imagine that it is all that hard for experts in cooperation. Just make up a chart where the C-system, the B-system (and other concertina layouts) are filed and mark the advantages by inserting a reference figure/number into its column, which details why this point is an advantage or disadvantage compared to other layouts. Something like that would be great. Ultimately the layout with the greatest number of advantages wins! Once such a chart has been established it then can be amended any time. This way we all know where we stand. -------------------------------------------------------------- These two W/H advantages I already discovered: 1) The W/H allows a greater hand span than the C/B-system. 2) The W/H incidentals are cleverly placed, whereas C/B- system's incidentals introduces an element of irregularity into its layout.

Indeed Wicki and Hayden deserve a great >> T H A N K - Y O U << from me, too! That's much easier to do than to develop this great layout. But, I'm still confused*) about which button keyboard has technically the best (or scientifically proven) the superior layout of them all! I'm sure that you music theorists are able to gather all positive and negative points and so, arrive at the conclusion, which cannot be refuted. If its done correctly it only needs to be established once and for all. That doesn't mean we all have conform the best layout or no right to personal preferences. It's just interesting to ascertain. To me it would mean I'll waste less time on learning it and have more time for more meaningful practice. *) ...because another musician told me that "there's no such thing as the easiest to learn & play keyboard of them all !" I like to have solid proof that the W/H is it.

Please delete... this dbl posting! Thx