BW77
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Posts posted by BW77
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A curious question....since B/C and C/C# as far as I´ve heard are regarded as "typical Irish" tunings of two-row melodeons it might have been tempting to get a 20 key "Anglo" concertina in these keys also ( at least for *some* melodeon player going concertina...)
Have you seen or heard of something like that ?
We've had a few discussions of it in the past, most recently in Anglo Concertina In B/c Tuning?, but I don't think people "got" what I was saying about normal concertina button alignment being wrong for chromatic system...
Thanks! Very interesting, I hadn't seen those old discussions on the subject. It is easy enough to "get" your suggested layouts in #15 and #16 of that topic. For single note Irish style it seems handy enough in theory at least and evidently some players have used it in practise. I didn't see your comment on button alignment being wrong however...did you mean that the button rows are not straight on the concertina as they are on the accordion?? Does that matter?..or was it about something else? Some objections against the idea mentioning disadvantages concerning harmonic playing are hardly relevant. A B/C concertina would be a melody instrument anyway and it is a very compact way getting a chromatic instrument. Chromatic harmonica players ought to feel at home also
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Longer bellows is usefull when playing in a chordal fashion.... a more Harmonic style.
So, for many people a shorter bellows is sufficient and perhaps preferable.
Sounds reasonable...if players don't ask for more folds there is no reason for makers to produce them...to a higher cost but ITM means single note melody playing mostly. British Morris anglo style calls for energetic chords which consumes more air so you would expect greater demand for multifolded bellows for that idiom.... or what do the Morris players say themselves?
I do have an impression from Youtube videos that polyphonic/chord playing style may be rather common among South African players also. Anyone around to comment?.
Another bellows and stability matter...Old 19th century bellows often ( mostly?) have a significantly smaller cross-section than the wooden frame, In later years makers often make bellows with the same cross-section as the frame. In early and mid 20th century you usually find something in between. A wider bellows of course usually means more air capacity and more stability.
Is this always an advantage or may the shorter and leaner bellows be preferable for some/many occasions ? Geoff, mentions one reason for a shorter one. Some more?
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Anglos exist in:
D/A
C#/G#
C/G
B/F#
Bb/F
A/E
Ab/Eb
G/D
F/C
And other odd keys sometimes turn up, but always that way around and with the rows a fifth apart.
A curious question....since B/C and C/C# as far as I´ve heard are regarded as "typical Irish" tunings of two-row melodeons it might have been tempting to get a 20 key "Anglo" concertina in these keys also ( at least for *some* melodeon player going concertina...)
Have you seen or heard of something like that ?
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I would guess a small cross section means that a longer length would not be well supported, and might sag/collapse in the middle, while the larger cross sections of melodeons, accordions, and bandoneons allow for more folds. Or course those other boxes also usually have multiple reeds so they need that extra bellows volume to supply them. I note that some of the cheap import concertinas do use more bellows folds, and these models generally include a couple of rigid frames midway along the bellows, which I presume are for vertical support. I suppose these cheap versions are leaky enough that they may need that extra volume just to get by. I've read that quality concertinas built for the South Africa market tend toward the upper end of bellow folds, perhaps 8-10 folds? But 20 folds would likely be unstable, as well as adding extra weight on an instrument that is generally hand held without any body straps for support.
Well, 20 might have been to stretch it but what about 10 then? If South Africans manage/prefer it why not others? just an old habit? Stability is hardly an issue...if the extra volume is not needed you better play with the ( 10-fold) bellows fairly closed and stability is preserved. When extra volume is wanted you play like bandoneonists, mainly on draw. The difference of course is that anglos don't have as many doubled notes on both push/pull as bandoneons. The weight factor I believe is negligible compared with mass of box, mechanism, and reed works.
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One ancient survey on this topic. Two revisions I should make are a couple of E/B concertinas of German origin and piccolo concertinas in a number of combinations. It seems virtually every possible key has been made at least once at some point.
Ken
This survey says concerning Ab/Eb that it is "less common" which of course may be correct generally speaking but among Salvation Army anglos particularly 30(32) key ones I believe Ab/Eb (in high pitch a=452,5) rather might be the "most common"
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Pitch stability is not connected to the instrument style, more to how thin the reed is, and the lower the pitch the more it is an issue.
How thin it is...yes...but firstly the profile along its length. High range reeds may be thinner at the tip than at the base, mid range having roughly the same thickness or just slightly thinner in the mid part, while low range reeds may be very much thinner in the mid part or even carry a weight at the tip ( which makes it possible to use a shorter reed for the same fundamental pitch) ...all this causes the difference that low range reeds get less pitch stability vs air pressure.
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Tango bandoneonists play on the pull for many reasons. The pull is more efficient many long passages will only be able to be played on the opening (due to the valves being forced open slightly on push), also it is easier to make the chord hits on the strong beats opening by placing the bandoneon on the knee (used frequently in tango). It also facilitates playing standing up with many bandoneonists trying to emulate that stance.
Only certain bandoneonists play like this however. Look at any of the non tango bandoneonists (people who play waltzes, classical etc) and you will see them chug along both opening and closing. Here is one of my favorites who plays both opening and closing in this tango but it could be because he is more well known for classical bandoneon music. (he is a madman in the chair)
RODOLFO DALUISIO
Many thanks for the comment! I feel as if my assumptions were not entirely imagination... and what an impressive performer! One more thought comes into my mind: WHY are ("our") concertina bellows so short ? The tradition says 4-8 folds or so...what might be done with 10-20...??
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Otherwise I have my main concertina which has not had a general tune up since about 1987.
I find that insane, I have a melodeon I have played fairly regularly for the past 7 or 8 years and it needs a tune.
Or maybe just a change of valves and clean would do it based on your experiance
Robin // I have similar experiences. Some instruments have stayed in tune "for ever" ( and som have not..) but all squeezeboxes need regular use to have a reasonable chance doing so. There are a couple of important reed quality factors involved...one (1) is the contancy of pitch vs time....another (2) the stability of pitch vs playing force (air pressure over the reed slot) .
Concerning (1) Robin's instrument obviously has good quality but otherwise in a complete reed-set you will often find some reeds which are less resistant and may need re-tuning.
Concerning (2) Squeezeboxes are usually "tuned" to a certain pitch at a certain playing force ( an arbitrary pressure over the reed slot ) BUT free reeds are NOT completely stable vs playing force so when playing softer or louder than the choosen tuning pressure the instrument will always get more or less "out of tune".
For low range reeds this variation may be 10-30 cents or even more which makes a common ambition like "tuning with a tolerance of +/- 2-3 cent " somewhat
unrealistic or even misleading.
Consequently the ambitions and expectations regarding needs for tuning of squeezeboxes ought to be regarded with great tolerance and like Chris Ghent said above: "If you are not noticing a problem then there isn't one"...mostly holds very well. One different example may be "wet tuning" or "musette tuning" for accordions. You may accept - and even like - squeezebox tone which is inherently "out of tune"....
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1) ...
Tango bandonionists ( playing forced stacatto chords) mostly do say 90% of the music on pull and draw a deep breath on push. The reason for this might be the said better sealing or maybe that the long bellows are easier to handle on pull. Some reader who knows?
1) Also, the greater mass of the Bandoneon's ends requires more effort to reverse the bellows direction
2) The Anglo and Bandoneon - and the duet oncertinas, too - have one common feature: the hand-straps. You press the bellows together with the palms of your hands against the ends, but you draw it out with the backs of your hands against the straps. For reasons of efficiency and comfort, your hands are not strapped tightly to the palm-rests - there is an amount of play between pressing and drawing. When you press the bellows, your hands are closer to the keyboard, and your fingers are more cramped. On the draw, your hands are that little bit farther from the keyboard, and your fingers are more relaxed and, above all, not tempted to help press the bellows.
1) Just a little comment on this. The mass of course is (mostly) greater with Bandoneons but the effort to reverse the bellows direction is firstly a matter of end area and opening area of the reed slot since you are constantly working against pressure conditions. The mass factor is important mainly when carrying the instrument around....a certain difference....
2) This is really interesting and just like the conclusion in the previous reply to Geoff wouldn't that be the same for "us" and we better start behaving like "Tango Bandoneonistas" all of us ??
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1) I get the impression that bandoneonists let the weight of the ends do some of the 'pull' work as the bellows extends and the ends are not supported on the lap..
2) Another point is that the fingering is different on push and pull, on a diatonique Bandoneon, ...... only one fingering patern to be remembered.
3) On the push stroke that long bellows reacts to destabilise the ends...
4) I notice that large 'chord snaps' work better on the pull but then I again put that down to muscular control by making a jerking movement outwards appears to be better controled.
1) I've had the same idea particularly as some players hang the instrument over one knee when standing. When seated they often rest the ends on the knees
2) Yes...and maybe some idiomatic typical phrases like some runs are learnt on pull preferably, or certain chord patterns are comfortable
3) This I have guessed might be the main reason particularly with heavy staccato chords
4) Isn't that (3) precisely what you have noticed in such case? Then the weight factor and the stability factor cooperate in one direction....
The instriguing conclusion may be : wouldn't that work the same way with "our" concertinas ? Better do most of the work on pull?
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1) Because the lever mass is light, in combination of a fair amount of spring force, except possibly for an extremely gifted player, the button maintains contact with the finger thruout its travel. You might not notice this since button travel is around 3-6mm
2) I prefer notes on the press when playing staccato triplets .... I find a press note when struck by the finger from a height, ( not pressed ) with pressure on the bellows gives more punch to the note...., I find dynamic note shaping for emotional effect better on the draw,
1) Concerning spring assistance.// Yes, as long as you are playing a smooth legato I agree that the button may stay in contact with the finger and you will feel the button resistance "assisting " the return by the finger but when playing those "crisp" staccato ornaments do you not aim for as short contact with the button as possible? The common advise is to hit the button like a hammer and withdraw the finger as fast as you can. This means that you have already prepared your finger to return at the same moment it hits the button. Does the button then really "assist" the finger return? Or is the experience of playing faster with stronger springs explained by quicker reaturn of the pad rather? What happens if there is no resistance involved and no time is wasted for pad return either? Like *playing* with a touch-sensitive (computer) keyboard? My guess is that we can play even faster with THAT than with any mechanical keyboard.
2) Concerning push/pull preference// It sounds as if you prefer push for staccato/punch and draw for legato and sensitive dynamics. As we said before the spring and pad conditions theoretically seemed to speak for better staccato/crispness on pull. What may then be the cause if practice says the opposite? Or are several factors involved that act against each other and are difficult to separate?
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So "You Can't Play Irish Music On A 26-Key?*
Here's Terry Bingham doing just that:
and even more...as far as I can see ( and hear? ) on these videos he would do just as well with a 20-key...!?
Something to consider when looking at instrument "qualities"....
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1) Any differences in actuation whilst Pushing or Pulling can probably be eliminated by copious practice and mostly, I feel, concern muscular control rather than any advantages donated by the mechanisms of the instrument.
2) Yes it may be easier to finger quick passages low down on an EC whilst pulling on the bellows
1) One factor which was mentioned in the other thread ( Spring making) is the sealing by the pads which is more efficient on pull. In the low range particularly - if pad holes are larger - you may get a pad leak on energetic push and this of course can not be compensated by any other practise than playing on pull. What you expect from this is better stacatto on pull for example.
Tango bandonionists ( playing forced stacatto chords) mostly do say 90% of the music on pull and draw a deep breath on push. The reason for this might be the said better sealing or maybe that the long bellows are easier to handle on pull. Some reader who knows?
2) Yes, one interesting example. With anglos on the other hand since the tonic and dominant in the main keys are on push, melody lines and accompaniment chords may favour playing on push
Geoff also mentions muscular control. I believe this to some part may favour push as the dominating "stroke" since much of our everyday work means that the arms are more involved in flexion movements and thus it may come easier putting strong beats on push than pull. Here practise certainly comes in. Playing violine for example favours draw=pull( squeezebox-wise). Maybe it would be preferable "by copious practice" doing the same with concertinas? I have the feeling that most players put the strong beat on push rather than pull for example - or am I mistaken?
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Not an Anglo hand rest as such perhaps, but here's a best-quality "stretched-hexagon" Lachenal New Model that seems to have been made to have (now missing) wrist supports attached:
I've heard of a Wheatstone or two too....
I guess the probable hand rest may have been attached by two of the four holes?...any idea what it may have looked like? The metal pieces seem to be bent up at the sides which hardly fits with the traditonal anglo/duet wooden bar? Can it have been just an arrangement for some kind of wrist strap? Why the extra metal holders?
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However, the mass of fingers is quite large, and the pad can close only as fast as the finger can be removed. Higher spring tension acts as an assist to your muscles in lifting your fingers.
This is an interesting matter. The conclusion above I think holds as long as the contact between finger and button is kept but as soon as the contact is gone there can be no assist from the spring force. When playing staccato with as quick pressing down and as quick lifting up by the finger as possible the contact phase while lifting likely is so short that the assumed assist from spring force probably can be disregarded.
Dana said earlier ( #30) : " I don't agree with someone's earlier statement that lightness equates with speed. I have had a couple nice Jeffries. One set at around 40 grams and the other around 60. It was easier to get nice crisp ornaments on he latter because the extra tension assisted me in getting my fingers up quickly"
So...when doing these "crisp ornaments" according to the above I wonder if it is the said "spring assist" that makes the difference. I rather believe that the higher spring tension makes the key return and the pad closure faster and thus facilitate the staccato and "crispness". A stronger spring will also reduce the relative influence by friction from the end plate passage. Consequently the higher key pressure the faster/crisper you can play on condition that you are strong enough to manage...
Back to my other question which is slightly off the topic...is there a noticeable difference in practise ( as well as in theory...) between push and pull regarding these spring force related playing conditions? I did start another general topic on the push/pull issue but no replies there yet...
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In the thread "Spring making" in the Instrument construction forum this remark was made:
"At least in theory fast and energetic playing is expected to be more efficient on pull than on push particularly when playing in the low keyboard range" ...the background being that conditions regarding spring action and pad dynamics seem to speak for that. But what is the practical experience ? Can you play faster on pull? Can you do a better staccato? Is it easier to do precise and delicate ornaments on pull than push? Doing energetic and crisp rhythmical chords?....Or when is push better, if there is any difference?
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The important thing is that the pressure needs to be high enough not to slow the pads to be pushed up by playing air pressure, so you are limited by the area of your largest pad hole since all the buttons want to feel the same.
This remark inspires a related issue. This slowing down is present only on push and the opposite happens on pull. The importance of spring tension for sealing likewise is important firstly on push. On pull the pads seal more or less passively. In consequence the calibration of ideal spring force needs to be carried out on push and as Dana said is related to the pad hole area ( and partly to the pad area since the pad lift has to be large enough so that the mantle-shaped opening area between pad and hole becomes larger than the hole area in order not to obstruct the air flow through the hole)
Now another thought comes in...Baritones for example by many causes are "slower" than similar trebles models. Reed dynamics is one factor..but... Since the (lowest necessary) spring force is limited by the largest pad holes you expect the possible problems ( among them "slow action" ) related to a too light spring force to be present in the low range firstly. If the spring force is merely at the limit you would expect a significant difference in "speed" capacity on push and pull. Do you? Some experience from this would be interesting to hear !
At least in theory fast and energetic playing is expected to be more efficient on pull than on push particularly when playing in the low keyboard range.
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Generally speaking it would be interesting to know why the anglos, duets and englishes which in principle are very much the same kind of instruments compared to other squeezeboxes got different means to hold them. Is there any reason for that or is it just an old tradition?
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What would be the main interest in a concertina? Sound or ease of playing. Some 200 dollar concertinas sound better than 500 dollar concertinas.
A multifactor issue indeed but firstly you may need to separate several factors involved in "sound" and likewise in "ease of playing", secondly they are usually not two antitheses so there rather not be an "or" at all but of course you may find instruments which "sound" well but "play" miserably and reverse also. A technically "good" instrument may not have a sound/tone that is generally attractive. Maybe it is suitable for a certain purpose and intentionally constructed for that use. Preference of tone is such an individual matter and it also is related to historical and ethnical idiom. One simple example is the historical change from "victorian" mellow/soft sounding instruments to later ones with harsher/stronger sound. This likely was related to the switch from being chamber- or maybe music hall music instruments to open air tools for street, folk and band music. Another interesting matter is the possible difference between what "sound" players prefer and what the general public likes. Another one is that since the squeezebox/concertina sound contains so many (irregular) high overtones which are absorbed at a distance concertinas sound very much different for the player and for a distant audience.
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Never seen a hand rest on an English before, but I've seen the odd Maccann duet with both a hand rest and a thumb loop.
You also got the William and Marjorie Hurlstone instruments ( maybe Crane duets) with thumbstrap and handrest shown in the article by Chris Algar and Randall Merris in PICA Vol. 5 Page 53-57
And here you have englishes with a hybrid arrangement - a (wide) wrist/hand strap and a (wide) wrist support :
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1) I've had coils that are too small work there way underneath the levers and stop the pads from closing.
2) Can anyone summarize what the ideal button pressure is for different types of concertinas and different playing techniques.
3) I've always wanted to have the opportunity to play Simon Thoumire's concertina for example. I love the way he does cuts, strikes and rolls. Does he prefer a light action or heavey? Low buttons? Short or long button travel?
1) That problem firstly is a result from spring being loose or not perfectly positioned but a wider coil might help too of course
2) I'm afraid it is a question that doesn't have a simple answer except that you may find pressures in the range 30-80 gram or so, most frequently probably 50-60 gram but it would be of some interest having it investigated of course. Comparing englishes I believe old style instruments, say 1850-90, usually had lighter key pressure than later ones .Is that so? I wonder why in such case ?.... Maybe the leakage risk I mentioned before became more obvious since the limit for keeping pads tight at energetic playing with a common english often is around 30 gram (when the pad holes have equal diameter which I believe was more common too with older style instruments. If the low range holes are made larger maybe you actually need the 50-60 gram to be on the safe side, unless the key pressure will be generally higher in the low keyboard range than at the top. If some maker is reading this please comment !
3) Well , on the individual level you better ask the individual player directly. This is really a personal matter but in principle of course the heavier spring action the faster you may play - conditionally that you are strong enough to manage ! Very light action may be seductive concerning "speed" for the same reason and particularly if you are not so strong. With very high key pressure the button touch itself gets painful but a wide flat button might help. Keep in mind that melodeons with much wider buttons can have a key pressure of 150 gram or more while pianos may be around 70-80 gram.
Getting a good staccatto mostly is a matter of playing technique rather than key pressure but try as high pressure as you can cope with if that is what you aim for...
Button travel may vary between 2-4 mm or so. The lift rather should not reduce the opening area for air passage, otherwise it hardly means much for speed I guess. Short travel means you press the button to the bottom and that is not particularly comfortable unless you get wider buttons
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Keep in mind, short levers swing through more angle to lift the pad go the proper height, so the springs will exhibit more of an increase in tension when pressed, than on a long lever....
Spring wire diameter, coil size and number all need to match the material used to get the correct end result. A small increase in coil size can drastically increase the lifespan of a spring.
Dana
Thanks Dana and right....The circular mechanism of ( british style) concertinas is a true nightmare when tryin to get all these factors cooperating perfectly. Much easier with a straight uniform arrangement as with accordions or german style chemnitzers/ bandonions. What you say about length of levers probably is most troublesome on the top row of anglos and top notes of extended englishes but I want to add another challenge and that is the variation of pad holes which may cause trouble when adjusting to an even key pressure. Larger holes will need a greater force on the pad to be kept tight which demands extra care when choosing the spring tension and leverage.With too weak springs the pads may tend to leak on push.Usually not a problem with small instruments but it may be obvious with wide range models.
Coil size..agree....I have a feeling many concertina springs have a smaller coil diameter vs the diam of the thread than what usually is recommendable.
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For example, with two sets of reeds on an English, why are there reed pan chambers only on the outside of the pan? Wouldn't this chamber only be active on press when the air inside the bellows flows through the inside reed, pulsates or cuts up the air flow causing a tone, goes through the valve then into the chamber and finally out through the open pad hole and out the fret work. But what about on pull when the air flows inward? Does the sound still go outward?
I have two George Case concertinas that have double chambered reedpans - that is they have chambers for both sets of reeds. See 2760 and 3087. I do like the tone of them, and 2760 is probably my favourite 'round the house' tina. However they are appreciably heavier and a bit bulkier than a standard English, and presumably the manufacturers decided that the extra effort (and cost) wasn't worth it.
I have two Case instruments also, slightly earlier than those. One almost identical with 3087 with double reed chambers and the other one with the ordinary arrangement. They both have a mellow tone but I actually wouldn't say there is any difference beetween them. but....originally the double chamber one had a leather cover -"baffle" - underneath the endplate and the other one a very thin pine board. Both definitely have influence on the tone in the same way as similar covers used on many accordion models have, some damping of higher overtones making the tone softer. Like, as far as I know, all instruments from this period both also have reed chambers running all the way to the inner hole without partitions, except for some few top notes.
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Just a little historic remark related to the topic and maybe of some interest as a curiosity:
The "fifth improvement" in the Charles Wheatstone patent paper 10,041 1844 page 7 12th line says
"The object of my 5th improvement is to enable the notes of the concertina to be tuned at pleasure, by which its pitch may be adapted to that of any other musical instrument which it may be required to accompany, or certain notes may be altered at will to render the instrument more perfectly in tune for the key in which a piece of music is to be performed"
The technical devices are exposed in figures 14 and 15.
Seemingly the elaborate innovation didn't turn out useful in practise. I think it is fairly easy to understand why....
English W/anglo Hand Rest
in Concertina History
Posted
You have said earlier that one reason for the concept was that you had trouble fingering the low range of the keyboard and got no support there for the hand. Since your instrument is fairly small and the keyboard is reduced haven't you considered the possibility to locate the keyboard further to the top to improve the balance and get more space for the hand and options for better contact between the palm/wrist and the instrument end...or even making the instrument a bit larger? Looking at your video it seems as if your wrist comes outside of the endplate still?