BW77

Mike, I just checked your Youtube video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tax0PPwvwBg I guess this is the 7 folded instrument you are talking about. When playing this tune you mainly stay in the "middle zone" of bellows expansion so according to my rambling before you do not fully exploit the ultimate capacity (here at least ) to utlize the full resource from the deep folds. Consequently I have the feeling that *here* you actually are not expected to experience any significant larger volume from your bellows compared to what a "normal depth folded" similar instrument might present. I think I noticed another black instrument of yours ( Wheatstone TT?) in two bellows versions - one 5 folded, one 6-folded?? Am I right or mistaken, just a vague memory for the moment as I didn't find the clips easily again, YT is elusive sometimes. IF I am right...any conclusions from a possible change of bellows on that one also??

Many thanks Wes, your research work and collections are absolutely magnificent ! Some illiterate questions come up concerning the Regal label: I noticed that the only Salvation Army related recordings I found on your page is the disc by Archie Burgess on Regal. I have about a hundred 78s with various SA brass bands, all of them on Regal too. Some other "secular" recordings in your collection are on Regal. So... I just wonder... was Regal in some way related to SA or did SA record on Regal for ordinary reasons whatsoever, or did SA release recordings on several more labels as well? Do you know any SA concertina band recordings? Is there any documentation that concertina bands from SA participated in any of the known band competitions? At last...some of the Alexander Prince tunes are particularly impressive considering having been performed on a (big?) Maccann duet. Is it familiar if he ever used the English as well and maybe did recordings also?

Summing up, You mean deeper folds My comments 1. exert more leverage 1. I am not sure what you refer to by "leverage" ? 2. allow longer passages 2. Possibly, at full extraction 3. allows stability with lesser folds 3. You mean deeper folds give more stability at the same volume? 4. reduces bellows reversals 4. Depends on the degree of extraction Additional comments 1. I leave "leverage" out until I know what you mean by it. The term is usually related to force but what force? 2. With the same number of folds, deeper ones will result in larger volume at full extraction BUT very important, the volume will be less at full compression! You can execute longer passages by using the full capacity of course but when playing with bellows in the more closed zone you have to move the bellows more for the same passage 3. With the same number of folds you expect the deeper ones to cause less stability, don't you? If adding another factor - number of folds - it is more complex since stability also depends on how rigid the fold connections are but.. Assume that the max volume is the same with a 10 folded shallow folds bellows and a 5 folded bellows with the double depth of folds . Which one is more stable? I am not sure, has to be tried out and as I said I expect it to be very much related to the flexibility of the folds themselves. Some maker who has experimented with it? 4. If you play long passages using the full expansion for every reversal, yes, but as I said above when playing the same passage in the very closed vs the very opened zone of bellows positions you will likely have to make more reversals with the deep-folded bellows in the more compressed zone. Then being a disadvantage, and it is mostly preferable - for stability and control - to do your playing as much as possible with bellows opened as little as possible.....some dilemmas maybe? all related to performance habits and needs ... Would be interesting to hear if some maker has tried to explore the issue at large....

Ok, let's agree then that larger reeds consume a greater air flow but the pressure conditions are the same for small and large reeds while playing. The on-set by larger reeds however may be slower. Concerning folds again...mostly the difference between 6 or 7 has very little practical significance but of course mainly depending on the music ...if playing single notes 4 folds ( common among Victorian englishes) may be quite sufficient even with an anglo but you hardly find less than 5...if playing multi note harmonies with an anglo you may rather need 10 than 7. It is a matter of cost, production set-up, and tradition. The results from depth of folds are complex. If construction is exactly the same otherwise deeper folds are expected to result in less stability ( greater flexibility if that is wanted...) and less volume but it depends on how extractable the construction is. I guess that when you said: " I gained about 3 inches of travel without adding any additional folds". you meant that you could extract the bellows 3" more. Or? If so...are you sure that the total volume was any larger at all? and when you play with the bellows continuosly rather closed, the volume resource likely is smaller with the extra deep folds, meaning that you will have to do more frequent bellows reversals. Or? Have you measured it? I'm still confused regarding this : "deeper folds...helps compensate for the extra force required to operate larger volume instruments". My experience is rather that a wide bellows with shallow folds usually becomes more stable and that helps operate larger volume instruments...seemingly the opposite...but maybe I misunderstood what you said...

Jay-Jay, "If you someone were to be swinging a concertina around through all of their performance and weight was an issue, couldn't you just choose a lighter instrument but it would compromise the loudness and power," ?? So what is the point? You don't want to compromise sound...so keep the instrument you've got , swing it around, but use shoulder straps ! As I said before IF this minor weight (1-2 kg) IS an individual problem an instrument that is 100-400 grams lighter can not be expected to solve the problem ! your arms only weigh at least the same as the instrument...you better eliminate the instrument weight/mass factor entirely then, i e shoulder straps or stay seated ! "why not attach mics to the concertina?" Yes, why not? Search these Forums and you will likely find several suggestions! Or get yourself a MIDI-instrument... "Also I wouldnt go with a shoulder strap for long periods youll only end up getting pains in your back and headaches". ​Sounds very strange to me...unless you individually are extremely sensitive to that kind of load. Most healthy people can walk around with a back pack of at least 5 kg "for ever" without any problems so I have to ask : 1) for have long period have you actually tried to "go" with shoulder straps? 2) what kind of shoulder straps did you use? 3) how did you hold the instrument when you used them? 4) after how long period did you get pains in the back? and where in the back? 5) after how long period did you get headaches? and where? 6) an impertinent question: do you have any significant ageing or fitness problems?

I noticed now that this window/option only appears when you start a new topic. Is that that so?

I have tried to attach photos to a reply with no success. Suggestions? When writing in this Forum you have a window below "Attach files" but this option seems not to come up in the other common Forums when writing a reply

And another one in the topic Shoulder harness here http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14175&hl=%2Bshoulder+%2Bharness check #3 A very stable solution, likely working fine when walking around..something for Robin too ?

"Very often"...who knows...maybe not on the very highest level of fraud...but "ever"? certainly, since I have at least met it a couple of times. When talking about the mid level situations more often, and "we" all know, don't we? but it is a sad thing being cheated and evenly sad complaining about it. You can pick any other field of experience - you certainly recognize the hazard of various luxury fronts covering quality compromises among any commercial products. Even the ambitious craftsman does the job for a living and considering common human nature morals with vary, not only between individuals, but for the individual too, and you can't always call it "fraud" - just common practise, sometimes you do a good job, sometimes worse. The knowledgeable and critical customer will pay for extra bling of course as you say, if wanting that...but the ornaments may not motivate the extra cost if you are not sure it will be accompanied by super musical qualities too.. . that was your own consideration was it not?.. but the illiterate will risk be paying for something else...

Hmm...you "agree" with Ted about appearance BUT then you say "The instrument that I, as a musician, will pay most money for is the one that sounds best and is most playable" but then again you speak about "ornate" .I am confused... That - like I replied to Ted - means that you should NOT compromise with these "qualities" either. Even if you have a thick wallet you have to regard the likelihood that the maker made compromises to prioritize looks instead of function. You definitely come across concertinas having all the ornates you can ask for - expensive materials, various inlays, decorated leather, and so on - but not first class reedworks. Obviously made for looks firstly, maybe ordered by some amateur with high aesthetic or prestige ambitions but not caring as much about musical quality. You do not find grand pianos today with expensive extra ornates but you did 100+ years ago - and some extraordinary monster furniture too - but I doubt you did find the best musical instruments among those. And I am sure most public performers of music would prefer an instrument that sounds well on stage to one that looks good for the audience. Personally I don't care at all - I listen...My own instruments?..the best ones look terrible since they have been used so much...

Even if that may happen I can't see anything making it "likely"...Imagine that you are going to pay the "skilled craftsman" a certain sum of money for an instrument. IF extra effort is put down on the aesthetics you inevitably have to accept that compromises need to be done on features with importance for "playability and durability" and maybe tone as well...you will most "likely" loose some musical quality by your aesthetic demands but that is a preference of yours, it is a choice You make, and personally you may of course be quite happy IF looks were that important for you but have to accept that you most "likely" lost something else...and the same judgement has to be done when comparing any objects...

Sorry but I don't see what you mean: "Larger volume instruments produce less pressure for a given amount of force," If the volume is larger since the bellows is longer (more folds) the pressure/force relation is the same. If the volume is larger since the end area is larger you do get less pressure for a given amount of force. Right? " the larger scale reeds in general require more pressure". What has larger scale reeds with it to do? If you play a high note and a low note ( larger reed) simultaneously the "pressure" is the same, is it not? The air flow however is larger through the larger reed. " I gained about 3 inches of travel without adding any additional folds". Can you explain that more? What travel? And this still remains a riddle: " they tend to be looser in feel, which helps compensate for the extra force required to operate larger volume instruments". How does the flexibility (being "looser"..) compensate for the extra force?

Some progress it seems, let's struggle on hoping we may reach some concensus in due time... 5. "Constraint is the very nature and definition of a strap, otherwise it is just an idle strip of leather or cord." If you wrap it around your neck - yes ! The suitable "strap(s)" you can use for hanging a concertina up for supporting it while playing are elastic braces/suspenders . Just relocate the front ends to the instrument instead of the trousers. A little bit simpler is using just one such "strap" ( i e half the (double) suspenders attached with one end to each of the concertina end plates, and then running over one shoulder the same way as a guitar strap. " But the real question is whether a strap is necessary". Yes of course, and it IS if the player got a "weight problem" since it solves that problem when playing standing. If playing seated you solve the "weight problem" by resting the instrument on the leg(s) . Can it be easier? " paying attention to weight when choosing an instrument". Many players perceiving a "weight issue" obviously talk a great deal about solving the "problem" this way - but frankly speaking I see it as a terribly awkward, expensive, and often musically inferior half-measure when you can deal with it so easy and more efficient by using a shoulder strap which for some reason seems controversial or unattractive. 6. Well you are right of course so far, but I see no sensible reason at all NOT resting the instrument on the legs WHEN playing seated. I see no anatomical disadvantage with the spontaneous 90 degree angle at the elbow when playing seated - on the contrary THAT ought to be dead right! When standing the 100-120 degrees become more adequate!

Tradewinds Ted, 1. I still think that ought to be an almost negligable issue, if being healthy, but as I said before it probably has not been investigated scientifically since occupational "precision work" often is some kind of bench work (angle ca 90 degrees) but precision work while standing certainly exists. Try to find out... We may however compare ourselves with guitarists who nowadays quite often play standing and a very low position seems to be preferred.... If good for them, why not for "us"..? 2-3. Roughly the same idea then...let's hear what Robin says if reporting back.... 4. The point with the 20000/2000/600 grams example is that continuous static work with less effort than 8-10% of max in most situations is considered being both feasible and not harmful. The average load from a fairly small concertina thus ought to be regarded as practicable but of course there are several more factors involved, this being one 5. "one who wishes to avoid what should be the unnecessary constraint of adding shoulder straps". What "constraint" ?? What "unnecessary"?? IF there is a *weight* issue - solve it ! And the shoulder strap is an ultimate solution since it has the capacity eliminating the weigth "problem" entirely ! 6. "Even someone who plays seated will feel the difference if they do not rest the instrument upon at least one leg. Perhaps more so, since when playing while seated it isn't really possible to hold the instrument as low as 120 degrees as the legs are in the way". The pressure difference between 2kg or 1,4kg on the knees - is that really significant?? A discriminating factor when choosing a concertina model? When seated resting the instrument on the legs the elbow angle will naturally be ca 90 degrees and that is the recommended situation for seated work in general so it can't be better. 7. "I agree that around the 1.4 - 2.0 kg range, weight is not significant to pumping the bellows". For the *pumping* itself the weight/mass is hardly significant at all - for any common concertina playing. As I said before - only if you wave the instrument around one way or other

Hmm..are you not contradicting yourself a bit here after all?? Are there in real any reasons assuming (" not unlikely....") that the technical qualities ( "playability and durability" ) will coincide with aesthetical ones?? And why would "pleasing appearance" have anything at all to do with the "quality of a concertina" or any other musical instrument ?? Your example with bushfire does not seem fully adequate in that respect...let' s say instead that you have to choose between one having the best musical qualities but looking quite ugly and one looking very well but awful to play...? If you add the economic value vs the musical value your "love" of them may be at stake even more dramatically...