BW77
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Posts posted by BW77
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Many thanks Wes, your research work and collections are absolutely magnificent ! Some illiterate questions
come up concerning the Regal label:
I noticed that the only Salvation Army related recordings I found on your page is the disc by Archie Burgess
on Regal. I have about a hundred 78s with various SA brass bands, all of them on Regal too. Some other
"secular" recordings in your collection are on Regal. So... I just wonder... was Regal in some way related to
SA or did SA record on Regal for ordinary reasons whatsoever, or did SA release recordings on several more
labels as well? Do you know any SA concertina band recordings? Is there any documentation that concertina
bands from SA participated in any of the known band competitions?
At last...some of the Alexander Prince tunes are particularly impressive considering having been performed
on a (big?) Maccann duet. Is it familiar if he ever used the English as well and maybe did recordings also?
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That's an interesting insight. I found that, in practice, deeper folds exert more leverage, allow longer passages, can be made in a way that allows stability, e.g., not adding additional folds, and reduce the number of bellows reversals during play. It's a bit like the violinist using the bow to the fullest extent. This is my experience as an English player.
Summing up,
You mean deeper folds My comments
1. exert more leverage 1. I am not sure what you refer to by "leverage" ?
2. allow longer passages 2. Possibly, at full extraction
3. allows stability with lesser folds 3. You mean deeper folds give more stability at the same volume?
4. reduces bellows reversals 4. Depends on the degree of extraction
Additional comments
1. I leave "leverage" out until I know what you mean by it. The term is usually related to force but what force?
2. With the same number of folds, deeper ones will result in larger volume at full extraction BUT very important,
the volume will be less at full compression! You can execute longer passages by using the full capacity of course
but when playing with bellows in the more closed zone you have to move the bellows more for the same passage
3. With the same number of folds you expect the deeper ones to cause less stability, don't you? If adding another
factor - number of folds - it is more complex since stability also depends on how rigid the fold connections are but..
Assume that the max volume is the same with a 10 folded shallow folds bellows and a 5 folded bellows with the
double depth of folds . Which one is more stable? I am not sure, has to be tried out and as I said I expect it to be
very much related to the flexibility of the folds themselves. Some maker who has experimented with it?
4. If you play long passages using the full expansion for every reversal, yes, but as I said above when playing
the same passage in the very closed vs the very opened zone of bellows positions you will likely have to make
more reversals with the deep-folded bellows in the more compressed zone. Then being a disadvantage, and it
is mostly preferable - for stability and control - to do your playing as much as possible with bellows opened as
little as possible.....some dilemmas maybe? all related to performance habits and needs ...
Would be interesting to hear if some maker has tried to explore the issue at large....
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Wim Wakker writes about this much more eloquently than I in his section on "Reeds" and air pressure. Getting back to the original post, the advantage of additional folds is additional time - time to play a phrase or a chord.
Ok, let's agree then that larger reeds consume a greater air flow but the pressure conditions are the same for small
and large reeds while playing. The on-set by larger reeds however may be slower. Concerning folds again...mostly
the difference between 6 or 7 has very little practical significance but of course mainly depending on the music ...if
playing single notes 4 folds ( common among Victorian englishes) may be quite sufficient even with an anglo but you
hardly find less than 5...if playing multi note harmonies with an anglo you may rather need 10 than 7. It is a matter
of cost, production set-up, and tradition.
The results from depth of folds are complex. If construction is exactly the same otherwise deeper folds are expected
to result in less stability ( greater flexibility if that is wanted...) and less volume but it depends on how extractable the
construction is. I guess that when you said: " I gained about 3 inches of travel without adding any additional folds".
you meant that you could extract the bellows 3" more. Or? If so...are you sure that the total volume was any larger
at all? and when you play with the bellows continuosly rather closed, the volume resource likely is smaller with the
extra deep folds, meaning that you will have to do more frequent bellows reversals. Or? Have you measured it? I'm
still confused regarding this : "deeper folds...helps compensate for the extra force required to operate larger volume
instruments". My experience is rather that a wide bellows with shallow folds usually becomes more stable and that
helps operate larger volume instruments...seemingly the opposite...but maybe I misunderstood what you said...
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Jay-Jay,
"If you someone were to be swinging a concertina around through all of their performance and weight was an issue,
couldn't you just choose a lighter instrument but it would compromise the loudness and power,"
?? So what is the point? You don't want to compromise sound...so keep the instrument you've got , swing it around,
but use shoulder straps ! As I said before IF this minor weight (1-2 kg) IS an individual problem an instrument that
is 100-400 grams lighter can not be expected to solve the problem ! your arms only weigh at least the same as the
instrument...you better eliminate the instrument weight/mass factor entirely then, i e shoulder straps or stay seated !
"why not attach mics to the concertina?"
Yes, why not? Search these Forums and you will likely find several suggestions! Or get yourself a MIDI-instrument...
"Also I wouldnt go with a shoulder strap for long periods youll only end up getting pains in your back and headaches".
Sounds very strange to me...unless you individually are extremely sensitive to that kind of load. Most healthy people
can walk around with a back pack of at least 5 kg "for ever" without any problems so I have to ask :
1) for have long period have you actually tried to "go" with shoulder straps? 2) what kind of shoulder straps did you use?
3) how did you hold the instrument when you used them? 4) after how long period did you get pains in the back? and
where in the back? 5) after how long period did you get headaches? and where? 6) an impertinent question: do you
have any significant ageing or fitness problems?
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I noticed now that this window/option only appears when you start a new topic. Is that that so?
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I have tried to attach photos to a reply with no success. Suggestions?
When writing in this Forum you have a window below "Attach files" but this option seems not to come
up in the other common Forums when writing a reply
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And another one in the topic Shoulder harness here
http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14175&hl=%2Bshoulder+%2Bharness
check #3 A very stable solution, likely working fine when walking around..something for Robin too ?
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Dear BW&&, Do you have any evidence of this...?
"You definitely come across concertinas having all the ornates you can ask for - expensive materials, various inlays,
decorated leather, and so on - but not first class reedworks.
I doubt seriously that this happens very often, if ever.
"Very often"...who knows...maybe not on the very highest level of fraud...but "ever"? certainly, since I have at least
met it a couple of times. When talking about the mid level situations more often, and "we" all know, don't we? but
it is a sad thing being cheated and evenly sad complaining about it. You can pick any other field of experience -
you certainly recognize the hazard of various luxury fronts covering quality compromises among any commercial
products. Even the ambitious craftsman does the job for a living and considering common human nature morals
with vary, not only between individuals, but for the individual too, and you can't always call it "fraud" - just common
practise, sometimes you do a good job, sometimes worse. The knowledgeable and critical customer will pay for
extra bling of course as you say, if wanting that...but the ornaments may not motivate the extra cost if you are not
sure it will be accompanied by super musical qualities too.. . that was your own consideration was it not?.. but the
illiterate will risk be paying for something else...
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I agree with Ted here. The instrument that I, as a musician, will pay most money for is the one that sounds best and is most playable.
Also, professional players, who need a good (i.e. playable and good-sounding) instrument, will appear with it in public - and who wants to appear on stage with an ugly instrument?
I tried quite a few until I found the best-sounding, most playable one I could afford - and it was the most ornate one I could afford (if you can use the term "ornate" with Spanish guitars). Certainly, the best Neapolitan Mandolin I've ever played was also the most ornate (and I do mean "ornate").
Cheers,
John
Hmm...you "agree" with Ted about appearance BUT then you say "The instrument that I, as a musician, will pay most
money for is the one that sounds best and is most playable" but then again you speak about "ornate" .I am confused...
That - like I replied to Ted - means that you should NOT compromise with these "qualities" either. Even if you have a
thick wallet you have to regard the likelihood that the maker made compromises to prioritize looks instead of function.
You definitely come across concertinas having all the ornates you can ask for - expensive materials, various inlays,
decorated leather, and so on - but not first class reedworks. Obviously made for looks firstly, maybe ordered by some
amateur with high aesthetic or prestige ambitions but not caring as much about musical quality. You do not find grand
pianos today with expensive extra ornates but you did 100+ years ago - and some extraordinary monster furniture too
- but I doubt you did find the best musical instruments among those. And I am sure most public performers of music
would prefer an instrument that sounds well on stage to one that looks good for the audience. Personally I don't care
at all - I listen...My own instruments?..the best ones look terrible since they have been used so much...
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Both appearance and function are likely to be better in an instrument built with care and pride by a skilled craftsman, so it is "not unlikely" that these qualities tend to coincide.
Even if that may happen I can't see anything making it "likely"...Imagine that you are going to pay the "skilled craftsman"
a certain sum of money for an instrument. IF extra effort is put down on the aesthetics you inevitably have to accept that
compromises need to be done on features with importance for "playability and durability" and maybe tone as well...you
will most "likely" loose some musical quality by your aesthetic demands but that is a preference of yours, it is a choice
You make, and personally you may of course be quite happy IF looks were that important for you but have to accept that
you most "likely" lost something else...and the same judgement has to be done when comparing any objects...
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Larger volume instruments produce less pressure for a given amount of force, yet the larger scale reeds in general require more pressure. They tend to be slower to speak. Stability can definitely be compromised by deeper folds, though the set of deep-fold bellows I made for the Lachenal TT are not a problem. I gained about 3 inches of travel without adding any additional folds.
Sorry but I don't see what you mean:
"Larger volume instruments produce less pressure for a given amount of force,"
If the volume is larger since the bellows is longer (more folds) the pressure/force relation is the same. If the volume
is larger since the end area is larger you do get less pressure for a given amount of force. Right?
" the larger scale reeds in general require more pressure".
What has larger scale reeds with it to do? If you play a high note and a low note ( larger reed) simultaneously the
"pressure" is the same, is it not? The air flow however is larger through the larger reed.
" I gained about 3 inches of travel without adding any additional folds".
Can you explain that more? What travel? And this still remains a riddle:
" they tend to be looser in feel, which helps compensate for the extra force required to operate larger volume instruments".
How does the flexibility (being "looser"..) compensate for the extra force?
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Some progress it seems, let's struggle on hoping we may reach some concensus in due time...
5. "Constraint is the very nature and definition of a strap, otherwise it is just an idle strip of leather or cord."
If you wrap it around your neck - yes ! The suitable "strap(s)" you can use for hanging a concertina up for
supporting it while playing are elastic braces/suspenders . Just relocate the front ends to the instrument instead
of the trousers. A little bit simpler is using just one such "strap" ( i e half the (double) suspenders attached with
one end to each of the concertina end plates, and then running over one shoulder the same way as a guitar
strap.
" But the real question is whether a strap is necessary".
Yes of course, and it IS if the player got a "weight problem" since it solves that problem when playing standing.
If playing seated you solve the "weight problem" by resting the instrument on the leg(s) . Can it be easier?
" paying attention to weight when choosing an instrument".
Many players perceiving a "weight issue" obviously talk a great deal about solving the "problem" this way - but
frankly speaking I see it as a terribly awkward, expensive, and often musically inferior half-measure when you
can deal with it so easy and more efficient by using a shoulder strap which for some reason seems controversial
or unattractive.
6. Well you are right of course so far, but I see no sensible reason at all NOT resting the instrument on the legs
WHEN playing seated.
I see no anatomical disadvantage with the spontaneous 90 degree angle at the elbow when playing seated -
on the contrary THAT ought to be dead right! When standing the 100-120 degrees become more adequate!
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Tradewinds Ted,
1. I still think that ought to be an almost negligable issue, if being healthy, but as I said before it probably has not been
investigated scientifically since occupational "precision work" often is some kind of bench work (angle ca 90 degrees)
but precision work while standing certainly exists. Try to find out...
We may however compare ourselves with guitarists who nowadays quite often play standing and a very low position
seems to be preferred.... If good for them, why not for "us"..?
2-3. Roughly the same idea then...let's hear what Robin says if reporting back....
4. The point with the 20000/2000/600 grams example is that continuous static work with less effort than 8-10% of max
in most situations is considered being both feasible and not harmful. The average load from a fairly small concertina
thus ought to be regarded as practicable but of course there are several more factors involved, this being one
5. "one who wishes to avoid what should be the unnecessary constraint of adding shoulder straps".
What "constraint" ?? What "unnecessary"?? IF there is a *weight* issue - solve it ! And the shoulder strap is an ultimate
solution since it has the capacity eliminating the weigth "problem" entirely !
6. "Even someone who plays seated will feel the difference if they do not rest the instrument upon at least one leg.
Perhaps more so, since when playing while seated it isn't really possible to hold the instrument as low as 120 degrees
as the legs are in the way".
The pressure difference between 2kg or 1,4kg on the knees - is that really significant?? A discriminating factor when
choosing a concertina model? When seated resting the instrument on the legs the elbow angle will naturally be ca
90 degrees and that is the recommended situation for seated work in general so it can't be better.
7. "I agree that around the 1.4 - 2.0 kg range, weight is not significant to pumping the bellows".
For the *pumping* itself the weight/mass is hardly significant at all - for any common concertina playing. As I said before -
only if you wave the instrument around one way or other
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My definition of quality is very orientated to playability and durability.
Less important but unlikely not to be present when all of the above are satisfied, the external structure may have a pleasing appearance. If you do not love your instrument, how can you play well on it?
Hmm..are you not contradicting yourself a bit here after all?? Are there in real any reasons assuming (" not unlikely....")
that the technical qualities ( "playability and durability" ) will coincide with aesthetical ones?? And why would "pleasing
appearance" have anything at all to do with the "quality of a concertina" or any other musical instrument ??
Your example with bushfire does not seem fully adequate in that respect...let' s say instead that you have to choose
between one having the best musical qualities but looking quite ugly and one looking very well but awful to play...?
If you add the economic value vs the musical value your "love" of them may be at stake even more dramatically...
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1.There are many components in musical-instrument making that are best made of natural materials: spruce for sounding-boards of stringed instruments; ivory for nuts of fretted instruments; ebony and rosewood for fretboards and keys that have to take a lot of wear from fingers; tortoise-shell plectrums for Neapolitan mandolins; gut for lutee and (Baroque) violin strings ...
2. I know, some of them are outlawed nowadays and have been replaced by synthetics, but the components of old instruments, or the caches of raw materials that do crop up here and there, let you feel/hear the difference!
3. And I prefer leather shoes to synthetic ones.
Cheers,
John
1. I can agree possibly when speaking about string instruments but for squeezeboxes/concertinas I think there
is hardly any of the trad components that can not be replaced by synthetic ones without musical disadvantages. There
may be other disadvantage like possiby some general aversion against novelties or against use of petrol products etc
( which I may share or not depending on the net effect on the health of the planet...)
2. Is there something with concertinas you certainly "hear the difference" from, and how?
3. Partly yes but definitely some modern shoe materials are as good as or superior to leather, depending on purpose
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. Deeper bellows' folds exert more leverage at the hinge points, thus they tend to be looser in feel, which helps compensate for the extra force required to operate larger volume instruments.
Can you explain that more...I agree that the deeper folds makes the bellows "looser" , or at least more flexible, but
in what way do you mean it " helps compensate for the extra force required to operate larger volume instruments." ?
A "large" ( diameter) instrument needs extra force, yes. If the "volume" is larger only due to a longer bellows
( one with more folds) the stability is less ( if constructed the same way except from number of folds). You don't
need extra force for pumping but you will waste more effort on stabilizing it. I would assume then that a wide
AND long bellows (one with "larger volume"...) would be easier to handle with more shallow folds...??
A bellows with small diameter, but very long, would become fairly hopeless to manage if having deep folds...or?
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A necessary, but insufficient, condition is that the bellows be made out of leather.
I wonder...if quality is related to expensive materials, fashion, and status/prestige (leather often is, isn't it?) certainly yes...but I can imagine that a cheap synthetic pleated tube ( reminding of those used for ventilation tubes in houses) might do the job perfectly for quality music with a concertina but it probably would be energetically dismissed by the conservative concertina community....
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7 I think is very unusual with englishes and the difference between 6 and 7 just marginal. If you really need more volume with an english it may be a matter 10 rather than 7.... 7 is not unusual with anglos and the difference between 5 and 7 may be significant but in real the "difference" between 6 and 7 it may just as well be a matter of makes and models. Comparing exactly the same model with 6 or 7 may have some, but mostly very little, importance as well I think. The efficiency is depending on so much else.
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Again, many thanks. I read the article by Allan Atlas on Alsepti...seems as we have to live without much more substance
regarding the use of bowing valves unless someone having an instrument provided with them reports about efforts to
evaluate their practical function.
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1. I think the phenomenon of fingers swelling at least slightly during a long walk or other exertion is nearly universal, not an individual medical condition, or just related to age, although obviously individuals will vary. If more people played concertina, then
2. I expect those that try to play holding the instrument with the arms too near full extension would commonly experience the same as Robin has described.
3. So the optimum is likely around 100-100 degrees.
4. So I don't agree that weight is a negligible factor, although I fully agree that good sound and operation are more important! A 30% reduction from 2 kg to 1.4 kg seems like a big difference to me, but if it was only a 30% reduction from 1 kg to 0.7 kg I wouldn't care. Likely the point where it becomes significant will be different for each individual, based upon their size, posture, physical condition, and experience
1. Certainly also young and healthy individuals vary and some as you say likely notice these variations but you hardly
expect it to be a significant problem unless there is some sort of impairment of normal conditions
2. "Full extension" of the elbow s with all joints is NOT the ideal position. I suggested ca 120 degrees and ( by accident?)
that also is the angle at which treble size british style concertinas of most models - anglos,duets,englishes - balance in
their handles by gravity and this may contribute to a relaxed situation. IF shoulder straps are used this coincides fairly
well with a relaxed position when the instrument hangs freely in the straps also
3. 100-100...a misprint I suppose...what did you mean if so?
4. Well, we speculate a bit both of us and the span of variation where people may find it being important should be
investigated to know of course but generally speaking...most individuals likely manage fairly well carrying 20000 grams
using both hands in this "low position" . Your 2000 g instrument weighs 10% of that "maximum" performance. Mostly
that is "not much" and you should be able to manage that degree of static effort for a "long time". The reduction by 30%
we talk about would mean just 3% of the max load and that really is not expected to be of major physical importance.
Psychologically it evidently IS of importance since so many players make the "weight issue" a big affair.. but again...
like I said before ...IF "weight/mass" IS some problem for someone it CAN be entirely eliminated by playing seated
or using shoulder straps or avoiding waving the instrument about. The point being that the weight is of NO importance
for the necessary musical activities the player is engaged in...pumping the bellows and fingering the keyboard...
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1. I have a reasonable beginner's instrument and probably wouldn't have noticed it's minor 'defects' if I wasn't familiar with my grandfather's button accordion.
2. It does the job. It allows me to learn.
3. Upgrading is going to be a challenge, since decent instruments seem to be over the thousand pounds mark, up to five thousand for the Carrolls with a 3 year waiting list. If I have to stick with this one, then that's what I'll do. I'm not afraid of taking things apart and fixing them myself if needed.
4. At my current, fumbling playing ability, it'll be months before I have a chance of pushing the concertina to the limits anyway and I'm not intending making a living from playing it.
I added 1-4 in the quotation
1. Please excuse my nagging...but I repeat what I said before ..there should be NOTHING like a "beginners concertina" .
The best concertina is the best for the beginner as well as the expert. There are other tools/instruments which have
models typically being gradually more advanced and thus more difficult to handle than basic models and in these cases
it may be motivated to speak about "beginners" models. A completely different field...take motor cars...if you are fresh at
the wheel and start "learning to drive" with a Ferrari there is a great risk you will kill yourself ( or someone else) on the
first trip with it. You do NOT have this situation with concertinas. You MAY have it with for example pianos in one respect
- the key "weight" may be greater with a Steinway than some "domestic" pianos and the beginner may like a lighter touch.
2. Certainly you will manage struggling on but if it has the flaws you have noticed it will slow down your progress
You obviously have a fairly cheap instrument and that is ok. But that does NOT make it a proper "learner's instrument"
3+4. In the meanwhile of learning try to find a potentially "very good old instrument" as a bargain in a junk shop or where
ever...since you ARE saying: "I'm not afraid of taking things apart and fixing them myself if needed" and learn as much
as you can of the technology with that one, fix it up and you may get your money back ( maybe a little more) and maybe
you have learnt a little about HOW to judge what you need later on IF you absolutely do....The joy of music is not always
related to the joy of possession....
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Many thanks Wes ! Your website is a true gold mine !....
Now...just two pieces here of course, maybe hard to tell if they are representative, but what can be said about them
not to sound too pretentious?..."habile but not overwhelming"...quite good, but "not virtuouso" stuff...?
One thing is clear...in these two pieces not even theoretically there seems to be any place for the "bowing valves"
Have you got any recordings of slow, sensitive single note pieces like an "air" "serenade" "consolation" etc from
popular sentiment music of those days where we might expect the elusive bowing valves having been excelled in?
I guess James ("Signor") Alsepti who firstly was connected with the bowing valves had passed away at the time
so no recordings exist with him (?) but can there be anything written about his public demonstration of them ?
Do you possibly recognize the other two "eminent artists" in the quotation...J.P.Johnson and J. Pirochnikoff ?
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You will probably be loaded with answers in due time since this is a popular kind of topic here and "everyone"
will have opinions on it so I take the chance to twist the question a little bit before it all gets started...
You already know, as you say, what defines a "cheap learners´ concertina" - or "a beginner instrument"...
or do you actually?
THAT is a question which is precisely as ambiguous - if you want it to be - as yours...or just as simple...
Not even the meaning of "cheap" is clear. It may simply be "low cost" of course but also "good value for money"
"Learners´ concertina" is even more difficult. In principle particularly the beginner should have the very best
instrument available NOT having to struggle with the kind of instrument-related obstacles you describe yourself
which make the strenous procedure learning to handle both the tool itself and to control the music a nightmare
The experienced/advanced player will always find ways to make good music even with an inferior instrument -
the beginner can not... so, abandon for good the expression "cheap learner/beginner" instrument...
Concerning instrument "quality" you will meet so many detailed or even contradictory opinions that you likely
will get more and more confused. Some reasons for this are that among the lot of concertinas "on the market"
many are old ones and since squeezeboxes are mechanical tools they will either be old and in "good shape"
or old and worn ( or worse...) or old but restored,repaired, reconditioned, reconstructed, renovated or more...
Some of these may be bad from the start, some may have been absolutely top of the line finest products from
the start. What they are now often is not known to "anybody" but the expert may find out by playing them and
closely examine the inside...some will then in real be "absolutely top of the line products" today also...
The comparison between an old instrument ( and its often not known condition) and a new instrument - often
with a completely different construction - mostly is a "mission impossible" and defining the "quality" in general
terms will be terribly difficult as well ...but I wish "everyone" good luck....
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If I go for a long walk with arms hanging freely I find that my fingers eventually become swollen and movement in them is affected and slowed.
I can feel the beginnings of this condition when holding the concertina too low, say and angle of greater than 120 degrees.
Robin Madge
You mentioned this before... as said then it may certainly be related to blood pressure or circulation in general but since
it sounds as being a true problem for You maybe it is not an entirely common or normal sensation after all... now, let's
not make this a medical chat site since that can easily run astray...but if you are not quite young the observation more
often may be related to some disturbance of blood pressure or return of blood or lymph from the arms at low position,
compression of vessels in the wrist or elbow region and other things...talk it over with your doctor !...we better not try
to solve that here but concerning concertina playing positions I have to add the reservtion that for You personally my
otherwise advocated low playing postition probably is not the best advise....but try hanging it up in shoulder straps
at an angle of 90-110 degrees instead and tell what happens. If no good stay seated....
What's The Benefit Of A 7-Fold Bellows?
in Instrument Construction & Repair
Posted
Mike, I just checked your Youtube video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tax0PPwvwBg
I guess this is the 7 folded instrument you are talking about. When playing this tune you mainly stay in
the "middle zone" of bellows expansion so according to my rambling before you do not fully exploit the
ultimate capacity (here at least ) to utlize the full resource from the deep folds. Consequently I have the
feeling that *here* you actually are not expected to experience any significant larger volume from your
bellows compared to what a "normal depth folded" similar instrument might present.
I think I noticed another black instrument of yours ( Wheatstone TT?) in two bellows versions - one 5
folded, one 6-folded?? Am I right or mistaken, just a vague memory for the moment as I didn't find the
clips easily again, YT is elusive sometimes. IF I am right...any conclusions from a possible change of
bellows on that one also??