bill_mchale

Bill, I know what your saying, but you have to be careful because I also understand that some of those old 78s were actually speeded up deliberately, after they were recorded, to make them more exciting to listen to, for purely commercial reasons! Cheers Dick Without changing the pitch of the music? -- Bill

And this touches on my belief (expressed before on this forum) as to why so many Irish music sessions are so fast is because they have lost touch with dance, and this is dance music, after all. I should make it clear that my comment does not apply to Ireland. I've been to sessions in Ireland that were played at sensible, dance speeds, were not exclusively Irish and were very open and welcoming ... and had dancers dancing set dances in the bar next door. I've never seen such a session outside of Ireland. For the same reason I believe that this culture of speed does not apply to English music sessions in England or French music sessions in France (and, from experience, Switzerland and Denmark) because dance is still associated with the sessions, either through people actively dancing or through significant numbers of the musicians being involved in traditional dance. I have to say, I think Irish traditional music played outside of Ireland has somewhat lost its way. Chris Chris with respect, I think you must not have been to the right sessions in other countries. While it is rare for there to be dancing at the sessions I attend (We play on what is used for the dance floor on the weekends), it is not unheard of. Further, I can attest that I have played at Ceilis where the music was every bit as fast as any session I have ever played in. Indeed, in the Baltimore/DC area, some of the fastest players at Sessions (The sessions I go to to listen, not play) are also the ones who consistently get hired to play at the various Ceilis that are held every month. Different areas of Ireland also tend to have different tempos... in some areas the music is played and danced faster than in other areas. I am sure there are sessions in Ireland, attended by some of the best players around, that can be every bit as fast as anything you will find outside of Ireland. While do Irish Musicians play so fast? Because it is fun to play that fast. It has always been played fast (you can find old recordings where it is played fast) and it always will be played fast. -- Bill

Well we can't play music on here... so we default to the other behavior that is traditional in Irish Pubs... Arguing . -- Bill

Fair enough, Bill, as it was an advertised session arranged with the management. Yet, the fact that "they were standing 3 deep at the bar" suggests that at least some of the paying customers were more interested in talking than listening - and they have rights, too. I've seen cliques of "ITM" tourists crash in uninvited and drown out the regulars who depend on pub talk to keep up with local affairs. A little accommodation by both sides might alleviate these problems. My point though was that the Pub and the Bar were otherwise half empty. Its rectangular bar... so there are lots of places to sit or stand at on that bar that are plenty of distance from the musicians for talking. Yet they chose to stand near us. Mind you, we are not a miked session. Once you are about 7 or 8 feet from the musicians, it is perfectly possible to have a reasonable conversation. The musicans are in this case are also the regulars. How in this case are we suppose to accomadate them? After all, we were where we were suppose to be doing exactly what the management wanted us to do. -- Bill

And those other patrons might fairly say, "the musicians felt no problem at all sitting 2 feet from us, blasting to each other over our conversation..." Matter of fact, I can recall several instances at a pub in Coigach when local crofters and fishermen were saying exactly that! So...what gives one group of patrons priority over others in a public house? In our case, we were there first, we were playing in the normal session spot (a spot reserved by the Management of the Pub for session players). They weren't in seats, they were standing 3 deep at the bar... while half the bar was empty. And, its an advertised session. I am not saying that there are not cases where the musicians are the nuisance... but this was not one of those cases. -- Bill

I am not sure I completely agree with this. I agree that a session in a pub implies a certain amount of openess.. but I don't think that means the session is totally open. After all, every session has its own dynamic and way operating. I certainly don't expect or want Klezmer musicians to sit down and start playing Klezmer music at our ITM sessions. Likewise, I don't think any session should feel the need to change its level of play for a visitor -- granted its nice when we do and helps encourage the music but its not obligatory. One last thought, I expect even the most generalist person on this forum probably has limits; how many of us would really be welcoming if a group showed up with a bunch of Electric Guitars and wanted to start covering Metallica or Hip-Hop? -- Bill

Ah, but I think the problem here is that many generalists assume that any 'open' session is a generalist session. In fact, I would say that many open sessions are simply open to anyone who wants to drop in and play... but in general the session has a particular type of music that it is built around. I wouldn't.. I was using unstable in a very specific dynamic sense. I agree that any generalist session is going to have some nature of flexibility by the very nature of the term generalist. What I mean by being unstable is that it is unlikely over time that an open generalist session will remain a generalist session. Sooner or later, in my opinion, a group of specialists is likely to become the predominant regulars in a session. At that point the session begins to tip towards the more stable specialist session. Nothing against this type of session. And every session is going to have a certain level of flexibility in what tunes or songs get played in a given week. But if someone comes into an ITM session and starts trying to play Civil War tunes without actually asking if it is all right, they shouldn't be surprised if they get the cold shoulder. -- Bill

Maybe we have the real problem just here. What means "open" ? An "open" session doesn't necessarily mean "anyone can come and do whatever". An open session will often mean "anyone who can adapt to our style can come". It's common sense here. As Peter was saying, when people have a discussion in a public place, will you simply sit down and interrupt the conversation? If these guys want to talk politic, should they wise up and talk philosophy or any other subject? That's the problem with many generalist, they apply their rules to all "open" sessions they come across, and will complain of snobbery when they don't feel invited. If they'd simply sit down and listen, wait for someone to invite them, etc, it would be a total different thing. They will often force their style down the session's throat. I think I might have stated this a little more gently, but essentially I agree. Regardless of where a session is located, at a pub, in a house, or in the park, the session itself essentially belongs to the regulars at the session and the person hosting the session (assuming it is not in a park . It may be an open session, but if all the regulars want to do is play Irish reels, and don't join in when you start playing a cajun tune, then shouldn't that be their right? -- Bill

Azalin, Personally, I reckon specialists who are attending an open session in a pub should wise up & become generalists. If they are at a home session, then they can specialise all they want, with whoever they want. Unless of course they actually OWN the Pub, in which case they may be forgiven for dictating what is played. Dick, They might well be able to play tunes from multiple genres and even play them in the appropriate styles, but if the session really is open with respect tho whom starts tunes and what tunes they start, then why should it be wrong for them to start tunes in the genre they specialize in? If there is an expectation that people should not start more than a certain number of sets of tunes in a particular genre for the night then it should be a spoken out loud... of course then its no longer really an open session is it? . Frankly, I think the whole concept of an open generalist session is essentially an unstable one. Its just too easy for a few specialists to come into the session and without ever meaning to (and without being snobs or mean), start to tip the session towards a specialist session. In contrast, its much easier for house sessions to maintain a generalist character if only because the owner of the house will usually make sure that they invite people with many different musical interests. I think we can probably label the phases... I. Its a generalist session. II. Its a generalist session but ITM (or Old Time, Bluegrass, Morris, etc.) is most common. III. Its an ITM session, but we occasionally hear Old Time, Bluegrass, Morris, etc. IV. Its an ITM session, we really don't play anything else... -- Bill

Mind you, I am not saying that other songs are not Irish, nor that they are not worthy songs. I am just not sure how many of those ballads would be strictly speaking considered ITM. In any case, that is probably something that will vary from session to session. That being said, even if the session sticks to Dance music, there are plenty of hornpipes, slides, polkas and slipjigs that can be used to add some variety in the music... that tends to be how my local session does it. -- Bill

LOL.. actually I think it depends on the type of session. Yeah, at a genre dedicated session, a single generalist can make a nuisance of themselves much more quickly than a single specialist can at a generalist session. That being said, a single generalist can rarely permanently change the nature of the session. In that regard, the specialists generally have the edge simply because generalists will start off being more tolerant of diversity early on.. and next thing you know, a group of specialists have become regular and the process of morphing from a generalist session to a specialist session has begun. In contrast, generalists (in this sense, people who want to play multiples types of music at a given session.. not people who play lots of music but are willing to stick to a single genre for a given session) are rarely tolerated for very long. -- Bill

Not about Irish traditional music, much of which I play and enjoy. Just about the arrogance of small cadres of ITM addicts who take over a pub, act as if they own it, and inflict loud, incessant and mindlessly repetitive reel-to-reel wallpaper ITM on other patrons. A bit of variety - song, slow air or solo, maybe even an occasional tune from elsewhere than Ireland, and maybe a rest once in a while for patrons who might enjoy a word with friends - would make these inconsiderate yahoos easier to take. Irish traditional music includes a lot more than reels and jigs, but you wouldn't know it to hear some of these people. You know, I am rather curious, if these ITM addicts are really as overbearing as you make them out to be, then why is the pub manager allowing it? Surely, if the patrons didn't appreciate it, you think the pub would either receive complaints or a loss of business. As it is, at most pub sessions that I have attended, most patrons listen to us when they feel like it and happily ignore us and continue on with their conversations when they don't (Sometimes in fact the non musicians get really annoying.. I have been to more than one session where patrons felt no problem at all standing 2 feet from the musicians shouting to each other over the music... even though the pub wasn't in the least crowded at the time). In general, I think slow airs are not common in sessions simply because they are meant to be solos and sessions really are thought of as social music. As for the songs.. well other than Sean Nos Singing, a lot of it isn't really ITM, and generally not many (in my experience) are willing to have the spotlight on them when they do a Sean Nos or other singing (outside of singing sessions). Actually, I would respectfully disagree with the idea that the discussion somehow shows that there is a problem with some ITM fans. Every situation involving individuals will look different from different observers. While you might despise a particular session, others might in fact love that very same session. Again, I think ultimately a session is owned by the regulars in that session and if in a pub, by the manager of the pub. If the regulars like the way the session is going and the pub manager has no complaints, then I think we have no right to complain about the session; and that is true whether it is an Irish, Old Time, English or mixed genre session. Of course, sessions change over time. That might be the other problem. What might be a mixed session last year might be dedicated to a particular genre this year... naturally if it use to be one way and now is another way... well, I can see being upset by it. But ultimately it is up to the regulars to decide what a session is. -- Bill

I think there are different issues going on in this thread. Certainly some of the complaints seem to revolve around a session either being open or closed with respect to the musical genres it allows. I think to a certain extent this dividing line is built around the sorts of musicians we have here. In essence, I would say there are two types; the first type is the musical generalist. They like all types of music (or maybe genres of acoustic music in this case) and therefore they want the sessions to be open to all types of music. The other type is the music specialist (in fairness I have to admit I am one), they might enjoy listening to other types of music, but when push comes to shove, they want to play their chosen genre of music. The problem is that both sides might have legitimate arguments over whether a session should be open or closed to multiple genres of music. Now the basic problem is that right now, ITM is far and away the most popular genre in many locations... enough so that the musical generalists will likely tire of hearing of it. If you get an equal number of ITM specialist and generalists in the same session, it is my guess that over time the ITM specialists will take over the session. Not out of meaness.. but simply because the generalists will over time, get tired of hearing 50-60% of the tunes be ITM. Once some starts to leave the session an even higher percentage will be ITM... and next thing you know you have an ITM session. -- Bill

Funny thing Fergus, but have you noticed how those "irish music star" types, only seem to know those obscure tunes in sets of 4 or 5 tunes at a time & because they know you are really enjoying them so much, they just have to play them 5 or 6 times each? Actually, as long as the "irish music star" doesn't spend the whole night playing the obscure tunes, I quite enjoy a set or two like this... and having them play the tunes 5 or 6 times is great because it makes it easier to learn the tunes and get a bit of an idea of the ornamentation. Of course what I don't enjoy is when the "star" spends their whole time playing the obscure tunes. Thats great in a concert setting, not so much fun when no one in the place knows the tunes. That happened one year in the Catskills. A couple of the leaders of an intermediate session had a love fest trading tunes that hardly anyone knew. When you have 50-60 musicians sitting around waiting to play and listening all evening to 7 or 8 play... well that is not a whole bunch of fun. In contrast though, I find a lot of the real stars in Irish Music to be very gracious; when they play in sessions where they know the skill levels are mixed, (by design), they will throw in some of the old standards so that everyone gets a chance to play . -- Bill

Dick, Generally, the only seats in the session that are reserved are those for the leaders of the session... well and the piano player if we have one . Otherwise, you sit where you want to. The only exception is if one of the heavy hitters (not counting the session leaders) from the Baltimore/Washington ITM scene comes in. In that situation, we almost always make room near the session leader for them. I often then retire to the bar to listen because while the music will be spectacular, it often is above me. And mind you, I don't mind this at all.. in fact I often stay late those nights . -- Bill

Is this sour grapes? Not at all. I stated that those who exercise snobbery and competition in their music sessions, shutting out less skilled players, have every right to do so on their own private turf. And I certainly agree with many here that courtesy demands that a player get a sense of what might be appropriate, and what not, before joining in. I'm just pointing out that snobbery is not "traditional" among the people who invented the music. I think we need to define private turf here... After all, I don't think we can necessarily assume that a session in a pub is a completely open thing. I mean generally, the regulars in most session will welcome others to sit down and play, but lets not forget that when push comes to shove, the session really does belong to the regulars who attend that session week after week, year after year. -- Bill

Dick, With respect, I think it is only fair that the people who run a session should get the right to determine the content of a session. If a guy is taking his time to run an Irish Trad session (or an English, Old Time or Scottish session for that matter), I think it is only fair that the people who come to that session be prepared to play or listen to that particular music tradition. Its hardly fair to the people who run a session and who are regulars of that session for someone to come in and try to hijack it away from them. Now, I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with a session that is open to multiple music traditions. At the same time however, we can't expect a group of musicians to remake their session to suit our needs... even if their session is the only session for a 100 miles. Frankly I find the whole idea ridiculous... one wouldn't go to a Rock and Roll Jam Session expecting everyone to try some country tunes. So why is it that players of acoustic music assume that others should welcome their favorite tunes when they don't fit the session. At my local ITM session, we occasionally get people who try to introduce Civil War Tunes, Old Time Tunes, etc. We might listen to one or two of the tunes politely, but ultimately, the Bar Owner who hosts us wants us to play Irish Music and thats what we want to play too. -- Bill

I never met Rich personally, but I agree with what Frank wrote. I always enjoyed reading his posts on here and I wish I had met him. I never bought one of his concertinas; I went with one of Franks, but it wasn't an easy decision. I have had a chance to play a Ceili though and it was a wonderful instrument. I will tell one short story about the first time I got to try it. It was a few years agos up in the Catskills. I had been playing concertina for maybe 6 months. Anyway, I was taking Father Charlie's concertina class. I ran into a guy I had first met a couple of years before when I first went up to the Catskills. The way he looked, he could be anywhere between 85 and 120. Anyway, his son had just gotten him a Ceili as a gift. He had played the Anglo when he was young in County Clare but had given it up when he had become an adult. As he put it, his father had told him, "You can play music or you can get a job but you can't do both". So after not playing for maybe 60 years he finally had a concertina again. We traded instruments, and played a few tunes and I enjoyed listening to his stories. About a year and a half ago I saw him again... He was still playing the Ceili.. but had actually worn the bellows to the point where they were worn part way through from going across his leg. He had remounted the bellows so that part was now up. Still it was obvious that he loved playing the instrument and played it often. Now we all, I hope, can leave a legacy behind of joy we bring to others. I think, however, that Rich, by making excellent concertinas that were far more affordable than traditionally constructed instruments has built himself a lasting legacy of joy that will hopefully be passed on to future generations. -- Bill

It would be kind of nice if we could have something like a best of his posts here on C.net. He passed on a lot of wisdom in the years he was on this forum and it might be nice if people new to C-net could have an opportunity to learn from them. -- Bill

Well I did say that others might disagree with me . I also understand your point about the melodeon.. though I have to wonder if perhaps these are people who would never have been able to co-ordinate the two? After all, diatonic accordions and concertinas do require a fair bit of coordination to get the most of them.. or even to play a basic scale. I am not sure everyone has it in them to be able to add everything together. Regarding cross rowing, I agree completely. In fact, if you are going to play a tune on just the right hand side, I suspect you need to learn it very early in the process. Like I also said, it might well come down to the sorts of music people play. I play ITM, so even if I never play a chord it will never be missed. Other styles of music.... well I can definitely see the point in learning to play chords early. -- Bill

That is beyond awful . My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and friends. His support for the concertina community was wonderful. I hope at least the Button Box will survive and that they will be able to continue to produce and develop the Morse Concertinas. That would be a wonderful legacy to leave behind. -- Bill

The general responses I get are positive. Oh a few of my friends rag me, but they would rag me regardless of what instrument I play. My wife actually enjoys my playing... and in fact it impressed her enormously on our second date that I played for her. I do occasionally have to help people understand that a concertina is not an accordion, but is in fact a related instrument. Of course in general it helps that around Baltimore and DC, where I do most of my public playing, that there is a fairly large Irish Music community and while the Anglo Concertina community is not too large (despite having two concertina makers in MD), most Irish musicians accept the concertina as part of the Tradition. Shoot, one band usually invites me up to play a few tunes with them when I go to hear them play at the pub. -- Bill

Keep away from the Ceili as well as the other italian reeded instruments. They are excellent instruments that get you say 80-90% of what you would get in a traditionally reeded instruments in terms of tone and response but at a fraction of the price. The basic problem is, that once you have tried one, you might never want to play your Rochelle again . In fact, there are a few players who actually prefer the italian reeded instruments to the traditionally reeded ones. -- Bill

Yes, of course. Pretty important omission there! I am playing an Anglo concertina and at the moment, as I have only been playing for under 3 weeks, I am playing a range of simple tunes. Examples are the Shepherds Hey / Monks March / Constant Billy Morris tunes plus Wi a hundred Pipers Scots tune; a truly horrendous version of Jerusalem (pity my poor neighbours - I live in a block of flats); and a rather seasonally inappropriate O come All ye faithful Just a thought, but at 3 weeks, I wouldn't worry too much about chords just yet. My own thoughts on the matter is that playing melody can be challenging enough at first. One of the toughest things about learning music is that its natural to want to learn to do everything at once.. but often isn't practical. Build up a decent repitoire of tunes and get them so that you can play them cold. After that, you can start worrying about extras like adding chords. Of course, others may well disagree with me... And of course I play almost exclusively ITM where playing is built around the melody. That being said, I was playing for a good solid year before I started trying to press more than one button at a time... in my style of Irish Playing, its only occasionally to highlight a note or phrase (And almost always octaves, not chords). -- Bill

I think it might help if you tell us a little bit more about what you play... I.e., Anglo, Duet? Also what style of play you are going for. I can be pretty sure you are not playing Irish music, simply because Irish style playing relies pretty heavily on the left hand for Melody... but then again I might be wrong . -- Bill