Roger Hare
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Posts posted by Roger Hare
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Conventional as per Crabb, Wheatstone & Lachenal, Push - upper. Pull - lower.
'Nuff said! Thank you.
Push comes first by convention, ever heard of a pullmepushyou?
Thank you, nice thought! (I never saw an 'ar-ma-dill-o dil-low-ing in his ar-mour' either, though I did recently
re-read most of the Dr. Doolittle books).
There seems to me to be no standard in the US, you see it one way as often as the other. Drive on the left or the right?
Thank you. I did a bit more searching after my post - I put it roughly 55/45 - 60/40 for top=push...
...One of the tutor authors who used the Draw/Push told me that draw was on the top, because the reeds that sounded on
the draw were on the top of the reed pan, and the reeds on the push are on the underside of the reed pan, inside the bellows.
Neat idea - logical too - thank you. However, I think I am going for the top=push option as that seems
to be slightly more popular. I just hope I turn out to be 'right'. I guess it can always be changed later...
Thank you all folks.
Roger
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I'm preparing a set of notes to carry around with me - tunes, descriptions of my
instruments, basic musical theory, etc.
I want to present the layout of 20/30 button Anglos in the same way as on the
concertina.com site - diagram below, but see:
http://www.concertina.com/anglo/index.htm
The top half of the button is the 'pull', the bottom half is the 'push'.
Is this the standard way of presenting Anglo buttons?
I ask because I have found the software for drawing these layouts, and the layout
on the supplied 30-button Anglo diagram shows the top half as 'push' and the bottom
half as 'pull' - the exact opposite of what is on the concertina.com site.
So, which is the officially approved form, push on the top half, or push on the bottom
half?
Opinions please...
Thank you.
Roger Hare
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I'm certainly not an expert...
...It is also worth checking whether this instrument is in something other than equal temperament tuning, and may actually be in tune with itself already.
Just or mean tone tunings can have a lovely sound, particularly on chords within the home keys, and may be worth preserving...
A bit late in the day, but you may find:
http://www.concertina.net/kc_known_keys.html
of interest in this context?
There is another article about pitch/temperament, etc.
by Wes Williams but I can't find it. Very useful.
I have a private copy somewhere - PM me if you think it
may be of interest.
I recently acquired an ex-Salvation Army instrument in
Ab/Eb - Soc.Arts tuning, (I think), unequal temperament,
(I think). It sounds great and I will be retaining the
original tuning on any further unretuned instruments
I get my hands on.
Good luck!
Roger
PS. I think 'Old Phil' is about A=455 Hz?
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It doesnae work - there seem to be some files missing, and also, I can't uninstall it!
Has any other user of PortableApps had any problems with this software?
Please ignore that earlier post - a quick check now reveals that this software no longer appears
to be available via PortableApps.com (I had downloaded it some time ago and only just got round
to looking at it!).
Sorry for the confusion!!!
Roger
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Someone recently posted a reference to this software in melodeon.net. I thought it might be
of interest to readers of this forum:
https://www.mcmusiceditor.com/
I haven't tried it myself yet - only just got to grips with MuseScore!
Roger
I finally (5 months down the line!) got around to trying to have a quick look at thi software.
As is my wont, I downloaded the version which is available on PortableApps.com.
It doesnae work - there seem to be some files missing, and also, I can't uninstall it!
Has any other user of PortableApps had any problems with this software?
Thank you.
Roger
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Hm! makes my effort with a mere 7 instruments look a little pathetic. Wonderful picture. Thank you!
Roger
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I'd copy the link to that thread here, but I can't.
Here it is:
http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18227&hl=
Roger
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...What is the recommended treatment for such bellows?
You may find some useful/usable ideas in this thread?
http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17880&hl=
I was getting a bit antsy about the possibility of the bellows on some of my instruments drying and cracking.
Personally, I would stay away from the Lanolin derivatives, the 'shoe cream' seems OK - get the neutral shade (or
do I mean transparent?).
Some folks seemed to think that such treatment wasn't necessary at all - dunno?
Roger
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That thread hasn't really reached a "conclusion" yet, except that there was a huge Anglo boom in the last quarter of the 19th century, and an equally huge decline in Anglo sales in the first quarter of the 20th, so that any attempt to date Anglos on "average annual production" is doomed to abject failure. But now we know this one was bought new in 1916, its (correct) serial number becomes of great interest and (as Randy will tell you) the leading digit '1' often gets missed when Lachenal Anglo serial numbers are read by people who aren't used to it - he's already had numerous problems over that.
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Not in the slightest I'm afraid - the very first Anglo Chromatic concertinas, made before Lachenal's even STARTED to make Anglos in 1862, had 26 keys..
Thank you for that.
I put quotes round 'conclusion' for the very reason you give.
I can now only find one of the dating references I have used in the past - by (I think) Chris Timson. I have
carelessly lost the article by Wes Williams and the information supplied by Randall Merris, so I'm going to
continue to be puzzled, I guess. I shall be more careful with these references in future!
I'm presuming from what you say that if the correct number of the instrument flagged up in the first post in this
thread is indeed in the 180,000's, and is correctly dated to 1916, a lot of existing dates will need re-thinking,
including that of the instrument first cited in http://www.concertin...showtopic=18293
I hope I'm not seen as banging on about dates in general, but they do fascinate me. However, I'm becoming
increasingly cautious when giving even wide-ranging approximate dates for my vintage 'tinas...
Thank you for the comment about 26-buttons - another piece of information to file away.
Roger
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Remember the recent thread 'Dating a 31B Lachenal' (or somethinglike that)?
See: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?s=0dda08ef084b43dee90f6415f0998649&showtopic=18293
That discussion centred around No. 188334, with diversions to discuss No. 187243, which later seems
to have been a misreading of No. 137243.
The 'conclusion' in that thread seemed to be tending towards the idea that instruments in the 180,000's
are from the mid-late nineteen-twenties?
Is it not therefore possible that the serial number given for the instrument discussed in this thread
(ie: in the 80,000s) is correct, and that the instrument should be dated much earlier - say last decade of
19th century? That would tie in with serial numbers along the high 70,000s (ie: like my No. 74693)
which are supposed to be late nineteenth century?
However, the comment about the second instrument:
'The boys of the unit were so used to the old instrument that they made a collection and gave me the
money to buy a new concertina, which I had sent from London and which I carried with me and used
to good purpose till I left the unit'
muddies the waters more than a little - particularly if it was a new instrument in 1916! if the correct
number is in the 80,000's, it was made earlier, if the correct number is in the 180,000's, it was made
later. Help! I'm confused...
Final thought - 'Haud on Jimmie!' - it's a 26-button instrument - is the date at which Lachenal started
making 26-button instruents known? That should help?
Sorry if this doesn't hang together very well, but I'm doing it 'on the fly' with a dodgy connection, and
don't have time to check my 'factoids' - which I will try and do later in order to get my story right....
More to the point, I'm interested to see that at least some museums feature 'tinas in this way. I will
now certainly be taking my Lachenal semi-miniature No. 137243 (featured here on more than one
occasion) to the Imperial War Museum out-station in Manchester (Salford?) when I have moved up
there next year - to see if they are interested in featuring it somewhere...
Roger
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Roger, yours is still a very good question……..what is the tune?
There are any number of theme tunes for elderly BBC radio dramatisations which get recycled on
R4X about which one could ask this question.
I'm thinking particularly of some of the DIckens novels, and the condensation of the Aubrey novels
(I think that one is 'Rolling Sea', but a bit different from the Eliza Carthy version fromm memory).
Roger.
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I am not sure what the tune is but was really questioning whether it should be played on a concertina.
Ah! Now I understand - thank you.
Roger
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Presumably it is the same instrument, in which case the serial number is 50,000 lower than as reported to Randy, which is an easy mistake but a helluva difference...
I reported the instrument to Randy soon after acquiring it - with the correct serial number...
I hope he does not now have a 'bogus' and misleading duplicate entry in his database?
I presume he reads this forum (user rmerris?) and will see this exchange and thus be alerted
to the possibility?
This dating business does my head in! I have learned very quickly to be suitably 'vague'
when asked about the age of my five 'vintage' instruments.
Roger
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Has anyone heard the introduction music to the above series, an episode of which can be played here?
The novel is set in Manchester between 1839 and 1842 so, lovely as it is, I'm not sure that the BBC have
got their period music correct. Should we tell them?
Yes, I just listened to the omnibus edition on R4Extra and have been trying (and failing so far)
to work out the introductory tune.
Don't tell the BBC, tell me - what is the tune and how is it out of its period?
Ta.
Roger
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My best information is from handwriting inside a small-bodied (5 1/2 inches acrros the ends) 30-key in Bb/F. The serial number is No. 187243. It says "Led the troops into Armentieres, 13 October - 2 November 1914".
Of course, the owner could have purchased it well before marching off to the trenches in 1914. But from the other information that I have, I think that there is a good chance that the purchase was in 1913 or 1914. Thus, I would estimate the year of manufacture for No. 188334 as circa 1915.
I wonder if you are talking about No. 137243 which differs from the number you cite in only one digit? It has been
featured here before, with pictures - one of which I enclose and which shows pretty much the text you quote:
I have the instrument in front of me, and have just belted out 'Back to the Army Again' and 'Liliburlero' - just because
I can!
I was privileged to become the custodian of this really rather splendid little instrument a few months ago, and the
previous custodian passed on to me the information he had. Briefly, it looks as if the instrument may have belonged
to Pte. A. Lewis who was with a Liverpool regiment, and who went to war with the original BEF in late 1914, and who
was invailded out in early 1915. This is conjecture, but looks possible. I hope to be able to research this further
when I can get easier access to the Imperial War Museum branch in Manchester (Salford?) - possibly early in 2016.
This is all a bit OT, but how does that revised(?) serial number affect the dating query which was the original subject
of this thread?
I don't know, but I had assumed (using the two formulae which I have found, and Randall Merris' data) that No. 137243
probably(?) dates from some time during the five-or-so years before the start of the Great War? I have also seen
the currently unrestored No. 197287 which, based on anecdotal evidence from the present owner, dates to about
1926(?). So, 188*** is going to come roughly some time between the end of the Great War and the mid-1920's?
FWIW, and completely OT (again!), No. 137243 is a lovely thing - my favourite concertina!
Roger.
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> That works with most browsers, but doesn't work with this site using Internet Explorer! The current version of the forum
> software seems to intercept the paste operation and lose it.
Purely by chance, I just encountered this problem whilst using a different computer with IE on it.
How extremely irritating!!!
Roger
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Any concertina repairer will be able to make a new pair of straps for you.
Thank you for that - they aren't a 'stock' item. Now sorted with a repairer
down here in the West Country.
Thanks again.
Roger.
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I just broke the left-hand strap on my Lachenal semi-miniature Anglo. Damn!!!
Anyone know a supplier for these?
I'll do a search on the internet, but I think I expect to get a better response
here...
Thanks in advance.
Roger
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Ted and Ted, thank you for those suggestions.
Of course, I should have said South-East Lancashire, but it don't make much difference!!!!
Realistically, I guess I'll be a bit restricted in how far I can travel so, as I'll be on the south side of
Manchester, the sessions in Chorlton and at The Spread Eagle in Lymm are favourite. The others
are on my list however.
I had a look at the Lymm club website - ah how the memories come flooding back! Seems as if
they occasionally use other local pubs - The Rope and Anchor(*), and The Saracen's Head - Saturday
nights in the Rope, and Friday lunchtime 'Arrers at the Sarrers' sessions - haven't thought about
those for (40?) years.
I also discovered that Manchester Morris meet about a 10 minute 'bus ride from where I'll be
living, so maybe I'll give them a call.
My brother-in-law runs an open-mike acoustic night once a month at the local cricket club. Maybe
I should persuade him to let squeezers in...
Thanks again!
Roger.
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I'm jumping the gun a bit here, but I hope to be moving back to my roots sometime in the
next few months - back to South-West Lancashire, after 40+ years away.
Do any readers of these forums know of any concertina groups or similar where a (bad!)
concertina player would be 'welcome', and who meet regularly, in the Manchester area?
Thanks.
Roger
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Amazon offers a wide selection of instrumetn humidifiers. There's also the dampit, which may or may not suit the concertina.
Personally, I run a de-humidifier to keep the mould off my instruments. I have lived in locations that needed winter humidifying at times though.
Hm! Wish I'd thought to enter 'instrument humidifiers' in the Amazon search box, rather than just 'humidifiers'!
Thank you - sorted!
One or two of these devices look suspiciously like the 'home-brew' humidifier I cobbled up out of a small plastic
tub with 5 holes drilled in the lid, and a moistened sponge inside...
Thanks for all the other helpful input, particularly the point that such a device may not be needed in the less
dried out room spaces in the UK - hadn't clocked that one..
Roger
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Anyone know where to get these in the UK? I failed to find a source last year, and I have just
failed again...
Roger
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You should definitely get an experienced tuner to "fine tune" it. Given its age, it would be very surprising if none was needed. Of course, "experienced" should include experience in identifying and ensuring the original pitch and temperament. And of course, in the unlikely circumstance that none of the reeds need their tuning adjusted, you would simply be told so, with a minimal charge for the evaluation.
Thank you. You have put your finger on my main concern - finding a tuner who is experienced enough to do this job, and
it's encouraging to see that others regard this aspect of the business as important. I have my eye on a tuner who I think will
be capable of doing the job, but I am going to look around - I am in no hurry.
I bought a Jeffries 38 button AbEb last year, which is in old Philharmonic tuning and I suspect also ex. SA. Like yours, some of the octaves were a bit out, though to my untrained eye, the reeds looked untouched. I have since only corrected a few wild octaves and I'm very happy with the result. If you'd like to send me a PM with your e-mail address, I will send you the readings I got, along with the decisions I made for the octaves - it being a 38, I had a somewhat wider field of notes to compare than you will have.
Thank you, the tables of frequencies will be helpful, I can compare any differences with the frequencies listed
in the table of 'Old Phil' frequencies and get a feel for what sort of differences are 'significant'. Playing through
a simple scale running through two octaves on my instrument, it all sounds OK, even with a certain amount of
row-crossing. It's only when I play two notes an octave/two octaves apart that there is sometimes a problem.
I should say that I am a cowardy-custard and have not had the courage to take the ends off and have a look!
I will PM you.
Incidentally, I like the term 'wild octaves' - hadn't come across that before...
Thanks again.
Roger
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I've been following the 'Retune' part of the 'New Reeds or Retune' thread and its spin-off
'Tuning of Old Lachenal English Concertina' with more than a little interest. Somewhat
cautiously, I'll start a second spin-off thread - the subject though related in some ways,
seems different enough to warrent this proliferation?
I have also read the remarks about tuning, pitch and temperament in some of Roger
Digby's notes, and in the articles by Ken Coles and Wes Williams. I think I have sort of got
my head around all this stuff, at least in an empirical way.
So, why all the fuss? Well, I recently acquired a 26-button George Jones Ab/Eb instrument
originally produced for the Salvation Army (serial number 25105). As an aside, I should
say that this is a lovely thing - It's the one at the top left of the 'pile' in my signature picture.
I'm well-smitten with this instrument!
It is in old tuning (I believe it may be 'Old Phil', though I do not have the kit to test this). I
also believe that it is not modern 'equal temperamement', though I do not have a good
enough ear to decide exactly what temperament has been used to set the instrument up.
It certainly sounds 'different' to my other (Modern Concert Pitch) instruments. The difference
is both acceptable and refreshing! After reading the articles mentioned above, and the
comments here and elsewhere about the wisdom (or otherwise!) of retuning vintage
instruments to modern pitch, I have decided that while it's in my care, it stays in the original
tuning - re-tuning was never an option for me in any case, I bought the damn' thing
because it was in original tuning!
There are a couple of minor 'problems' however:
I have not yet managed to work out a systematic way of deciding which chords should
sound OK with the unequal(?) temperament, and which chords may sound a little 'off'.
Is there a way for a musical illiterate like me to do this?
Also, I would expect some intervals to sound a little different to 'the same' intervals on my
other modern concert pitch/equal temperament instruments, but when I play two notes
exactly an octave apart, I would not expect to hear beats - but I think I am hearing slight
beating, indicating that the octave frequencies are not exactly in a ratio of 2:1.
Now, the instrument sounds fine when I play it (badly!!!), but I can hear these little
'discrepancies', even if no-one else can - I am a little jittery about this.
Am I being too 'precious', or should I get a fettler to look at the instrument with a view to
fine-tuning while retaining the existing temperament and tuning?
Thank you for any advice.
Roger
'conventional' Representation Of Anglo Buttons
in General Concertina Discussion
Posted · Edited by lachenal74693
Ooh goodie! More helpful, interesting and useful input. Thank you folks!
I should say that my 'survey' of top=push or bottom=push was strictly empirical. I know (or did know!)
far too much about statistics to claim any real validity for my 'survey'. I went with my 'gut' feeling'.
Thank you again.
OT, but well worth mentioning - I am (or have been) a member of many Internet fora (sailing, shogi,
deltiology, computing, etc.), and since joining this forum I have become convinced that it is pretty
much the most useful, helpful, constructive forum to which I 'contribute'. The same comment goes
for melodeon.net.
Ta!
Roger