Posts posted by 4to5to6
A summary. Did I miss anything?
I've highlighted the missing models in bold. Please provide info if you own one of these instruments. pm me if you want to remain anonymous.
- No. 17. treble Aeola
6-1/2in, 3lb-6oz (165mm, 1540gm)
- No. 19. tenor-treble Aeola
7-1/4in, 3lb-7oz / 3Lb-10oz / 3lb-13oz (184mm, 1559gm/1644gm/1730gm)
- No. 22. treble metal end
- No. 11a. tenor-treble metal end
6-1/4in, 2 lb-15oz (159mm, 1318 grams)
- No. 6. treble raised ebony end
- No. 11. tenor-treble raised ebony end
- No. 14 56K Baritone-Treble
- 64k Baritone-Treble
8-3/4in, 4lbs-6oz (222mm, 1969gm)
- No. 4a 48k treble
6-1/4", 2lb-11oz (159mm, 1221gm)
- Lachenal Boyd New Model 48K
- Lachenal Boyd New Model 56K
163mm AF, or a tad over 6-3/8
- Lachenal RE BB MR treble
6-1/4in., 2lb-10oz) (159mm, 1180gm)
Other considerations affecting feel/weight:
- Smaller instruments (of the same quality) are usually louder, react faster and have a greater dynamic range.
- Availability (tenors are rare)
- has it been recently serviced/tuned?
- fast response can make a larger instrument feel smaller
- Every instrument should be assessed individually
- position of thumb and finger rests make a big difference
- Aeolas have better dynamic range, model 21& 22 bark out better
- 48 key tenor-Aeolas react considerably better than 56 and 64 key TTs, but run out of air faster.
- Aeolas come from ultra quiet pin-hole to screeming 48 key metal-ended treble - and anything in between, depending on end-material, fretwork-design, reed-length and period.
- consider TAM reeds - tipo a mano, aka "hand-finished" reeds
- Boyd bowing valves can get in the way
Very nice looking vintage concertina Trish. I'll have to look more tomorrow but looks it like 12310 is a an 1864.
Probably in Wayne 1053 somewhere.
Very clean looking. It's interesting how they stuck the Wheatstone logo to one of the bellow's papers. Very nice touch actually. They usually discard the logo when the baffles are removed. Let me know what you want for it. I might just have to start my own little collection of Wheatstones. Is this how it starts? First a few brass reed Mahogany trebles and then one day I am starring at my book case full of amboyna and tortoiseshell Aeolas!!!
Post a few photos for everyone to see.
Yes... I like Adrian's sound clip! Very nice.
Thanks Adrian. I enjoyed your recording. Great feel!
PM one the way... maybe it's a tenor!
Yes... I agree... practice, practice, practice...
Thanks Robert for the good advice. I'll be patient. I'm playing two or three hours a day wearing out my chepo unrestored bone button. I can't wait until I get the restored 48K RE Lachenal from you... A big upgrade at a great price!!! Thanks. First big performance in less than two weeks! Wish me well.
I do need those lower notes... It's my bass background I guess. I just finished memorizing and fully transcribing a song by Danny Chapman. It frustrates me that I can't play the low notes like it is written as Danny uses a TT. I'm rearranging it for 48K treble but it's just not the same. Here's the YouTube link:
If anyone wants the MIDI file or sheet music for it, PM me and I'll email it to you. You can help me with the rearrangement for treble if you wish.
Any updates on restoration? I listen to your YouTube video and it sounds great? Thanks. I am searching for a TT now and would definetely consider a New Model. Thanks for the info. John
I've read the bowing valve patent... as I recall, comparisons were made to using the valves and bellows like bowing a violin. They are different than air valves as on side works on draw and the other side on push... most are converted to act like regular air valves as I guess they never really worked. I've always wanted to try one out since first hearing about them. David Robertson has an ET Boyd in his restoration queue right now and had my name on it for a few days realized I have no use for extended treble notes and now I know I need the lower notes instead. I think David gave me the size and weight and will add it to the list early next week.
Yes, I remember asking Chris Algar about Boyds once and he said that he has never seen a Boyd Aeola but they could exist. The Boyds were on there way by the time the Aeolas arrived. I've always wondered if there were tenor-treble Boyds???
When I was researching Boyds I too mostly came across extended trebles that are the same size as the regular trebles. I just about bought a 48K Boyd once but thankfully it didn't work out as I'm now convinced I need a tenor-treble. They may be a bit better due to better reeds and select craftsmen building them but after a 100 years of use and possibly abuse, a pitch change to A440 and a few tunings after that, there is no guarantee of any difference at all. I agree. For example, a Lachenal Boyd is just a New Model with a custom end plate.
I could use a few measurements, serials, etc of specifically some different year 48K treble Aeolas if anyone has the time to measure theirs up.
Lots to chew on. Give me a day or two.
I'll search myself but if you come across the thread on Boyd acoustics / small concertinas being louder, let me know please.
I will read up on the TAM reeds. Very interesting. Down the road, but is there a English system baritone that uses TAM reeds?
Wow! I think you guys really said it good. This explains a lot about why smaller instruments generally are more responsive everythung being equal. I guess it's just a matter of getting used to the instrument you are playing. Reed pan design, dampening affect and resonance... that could be an interesting topic!
I don't think I can add more or have to but I like to think in terms of extremes to make things easier to visualize. In this case, the accordion versus the concertina. When pressing both wirh equal pressure, the larger accordion would have less internal pressure. PSI (pounds per square inch)... therefore square inches high, pounds low), with the exact opposite in the smaller concertina (small sq inches, high pressure)... so the smaller the instrument, the higher the internal pressure.
It's interesting... I was reading a few weeks ago about the difference between accordion and concertina reeds... As I recall, accordion reeds have straight walled slots where the tongue vibrates while concertinas have tapered slots. This affects the tone, reaction time of the reeds, etc. The point here is that accordions reeds are specifically designed to work under low pressure and to reduce air consumption which is a big concern when there is multiple reeds per note.
Comparing two concertinas, both with concertina reeds, the larger concertina would have less internal pressure so would have to be squeezed harder in order for the reed to speak the same. I have no experience wether this is a good thing or not but imagine it would limit the dynamic range. There obviously must be a much different feel.
I'm fairly new to the concertinas but from playing other instruments including the Irish whistle for years I learnt how to listen to and control the resonance of the notes. By here's a sweetly spot where the notes ring out. With a concertina, I can feel it and hear it when the reeds are really speaking. They just ring like a bell. I love this tone. For the same reason I love adding in those low harmony notes toy arrangements and feeling the notes swell and blossom as I'm playing. This is tricky compromise sometimes though because it takes a different feel (pressure I imagine) to make the larger bass reeds ring out than the the smaller melody reeds. I'm still learning how to control the concertina bellows. It sure is fun learning! I think this is another reasons I especially like listening to arrangements using the tenor-treble.
In my limited experience it seems the 48K treble to be the best size based on this feel of the reeds at the extreme ends. Of course I'm basing this on my entry level instrument. The question is would I have the same feel with a tenor-treble. What does a baritone feel like when playing? I really want those few extra lower notes a tenor-treble offers and would imagine the slightly larger instrument is designed physically larger for more reasons than to fit in more reeds. Is the higher register compromised though?
I was also reading about how the larger Boyd's were designed to be the same size as the trebles. It would seem this would be a compromise on the tone but the Boyds seem to be highly regarded.
And on and on and on... All interesting stuff... a lot goes into the design of these wonderful little boxes we all love so much!
Thanks Geoff. That should read "used to it". Ha ha ha! Funny guy!
Thanks for the John Nixon insight. And yet more to research! Will this ever end?!?!
Any insights on " The Flight of the Bumblebee - The Fayre Four Sisters"? Sylvia Fayre was unbelievable! I didn't think a concertina could ever react that fast!!! And no MIDI in those days! They did cheat a bit by getting special concertinas made that would play entire chords with the pressing of only one button!
So much for staying on topic!!!
Thanks Conzertino (Robert). I was thinking exactly the same thing... I understand one of the advantages of the slightly larger tenor-trebles is it's slightly larger bellows/air flow. One of the biggest challenges I have is bellows control and so I am experimenting with keeping both ends always on my knee (some use a large elestic on the bottom side to help) and then using small movements in a fanning motion versus long extensions and big gulps of air. I'm still experimenting but it seems a larger bellows would allow for lower pressure and air flow with less movement making smaller fan movements more practical. I understand in the early days 4-fold bellows were standard and look at the music they were playing. Amazing! Thanks again for the very helpful insight. John
Are any of the relatively less costly vintage instruments available in a 56 key tenor-treble?
I am getting mixed reports on what tenor-treble models I should be searching for on a limited budget.
Did Wheatstone or Lachenal make a simple rosewood ended, bone buttoned, steel reed in a TT compass for example?
Please give me some suggestions so I can focus on some specific models.
This could cause some debate (valid discussion but not here please) but I am not interested in instruments with accordion reeds. I also much prefer a vintage Lachenal or Wheatstone as they will keep their value which is very important to me as this instrument wil have to be sold when I have the extra to trade up.
Right now, I have a treble tthat is very basic with bone buttons, rosewood ends, steel reeds and could easily get by with a similar TT while I save up. Please advise.
I just listened to the CD by John Nixon - Just A Little Jazz. He plays treble, baritone and contra bass English concertinas on the CD. Now I want a baritone next after the TT! Awesome tone! I would loose a lot of money if I was a gambling man as I would swear that many of the tracks were played by a clarinet or a saxophone. Amazing tone!
I am struggling with a bit of a bad habit with the hand that holds the free end of the concertina while playing. I tend to catch myself supporting the instrument with not only the little finger and thumb but put two fingers on the slide instead of one. I can get away with this on certain keys by get tripped when I go for an accidental note and my finger is busy supporting the instrument. A bad habit trying to take hold but I am fighting it. My point here is that even my small, light weight 48 key bone button Lachenal has enough weight to affect me. I imagine one can get used tit
Still compiling data. I could use some more serial/size/weight data on trebles please.
I don't play English concertina, but I'd just venture an observation - in my experience, the weight of an instrument is far from being the only indicator of how strenuous it will be to play it, even standing up for long periods. The response plays a large part in this too - and you can only assess this on a per-instrument basis.
Thanks Stuart. I appreciate the insight and think I see what you are saying. To clarify, are you saying that you've observed a tenor-treble or maybe even a baritone-treble feel more comfortable than say a 48K treble? Please explain more. I could see this if the treble was set up very poorly but if everything was fairly consistent wouldn't the treble be more comfortable? I remember having a somewhat similar discussion with Wim Wakker over air flow, action etc. which may apply and will go back and search for that email. I know it is very important to have the action, air flow, reed voicing, etc. set equal on every key so the response of the instrument is fast and consistent. What do you think makes one concertina more responsive than another? I've been reading about reed pan design, cross bracing, sloped walls, etc. which I sure all applies. I guess that I may just have to take a trip to London after all and get Chris Algar to line them all up. Thanks, John
Some more data:
An unrestored metal ended model 11A tenor weighs 3 lbs, 6 oz and is 6-1/2" ATF. Not bad... it's really too bad these are so rare.
Here's quick summary of the compass (interval range) of some different models. Please check this over please and let me know if I have something wrong. Thanks.
48 key has roughly 3-1/2 octaves
56 has usually exactly 4 octaves
(I have left out 60 and 64 key English concertinas due to rarity.)
No. ??? piccolo concertina - no information
No. 17 Aeola 48 key English concertina is from G below middle C to C, 3 octaves above middle C (the same as a violin).
No. 8, 56 key extended treble is G below middle C to G, 3-1/2 octaves above middle C (four octave G to G).
No. 19, 56 key tenor-treble Is C one octave below C to C, 3 octaves above middle C (four octaves C to C)
No. 17A (11A?), 48 key tenor is C below middle C to F 2-1/2 octaves above middle C (roughly 3-1/2 octaves)
No. 17, 56 key Baritone-treble is from G (first line on bass clef) to G (four lines above treble staf)
No. 20, 48 key Baritone is from G (first line on bass clef) to C two octaves above middle C (3 octaves, 3 notes)
I'll try to add what I have in sizes and weights and list the instruments in order from smallest to largest. I am still missing a lot but this way we can see where we are at.
Thanks everyone for all your help. This information has already made my choice of instrument so much easier.
I have about £800 (1,600 CAD, 1,250 USD) saved so far.
The great thing is that after a lot of struggle, I now know what I want / need.
Thank-you every one on Cnet for your input.
Thanks Jenny. I appreciate the extra info. Best wishes! I hope you find a buyer soon.
Send me a PM please with your number. I would like to chat with you.
Yes, Robert Pich told me it's very important when importing a concertina into the U.S. or Canada to call it a "mini-accordion". "Concertina" to customs is concertina wire... a barbed wire with raisor blades attached to it used as a barrier... a restricted item.
The customs code for a mini concertina is "HTS code 9205.90.15.00"
"Private sale of one second-hand mini-accordion. Price as agreed £XXX GBP plus £XX GBP for insured postage HTS code 9205.90.15.00" would be a typical way of putting it.
Thanks for the information. I'll contact Greg.
Hi wolf, the only concertina I have in my possession right now is a RE BB MR circa 1900 Lachenal (6-1/4" AF, 2lbs, 9oz??? from memory). It fails the hang test in 6 secounds, needs pads (leaks ands action is jamming), springs (3 replaced with safety pins), valves and felts (pop and flapping sounds). And it is horribly out of tune and at old high pitch. It was unbelievable when I got it with 11 reeds fouled, loose pads rolling around inside, etc. It took me 6 hours to get it as good as it is in playable but very poor condition.
In order to avoid a possible misunderstanding, my one and only concertina is a Lachenal Treble ("Excelsior"), apparently not on your list... :)Good luck with finding your Instrument! Best wishes - Wolf
I started with a very nice 48K Wheastone crane duet with raised ebony ends a few years ago. I learnt a few songs on it but it never stuck. I sold it a while ago but had sellers remorse kicked in so I went on eBay and 6 hours later I had won the auction for what I have now. It was meant to be... I can't believe how much fun I am having with this instrument even with a few weak reeds, leaky bellows and jamming action. I'm convinced the English system concertina is a perfect match for me and so I'm saving up for a really good instrument. I want to buy one more instrument that will last me for life.
It's been a tough choice and I don't want to keep promising restorers I will take their instruments and the back out. There are so many variables: Treble, Tenor, Baritone, extended treble, tenor-treble, baritone treble, 48K tenor, 48, 56, 60, 64 keys!!! Availability? Size? Weight? Metal ends, ebony ends, raised ends? Exotic woods?
Then there's the whole thing of the Wheatstone Golden Age which "when" seems to be controversial (probably 29xxx to 32xxx (1920 - 1930) with 31xxx being the peak).
And then to top it off, the £ to CAD$ exchange rate (1.94 ouch) and £40 to 60 shipping plus 12% taxes to get it into Canada.
Again, I want to buy one more instrument; the one that will last me for life. I started this thread as I need more info. It's been really tough to focus in what to look for with limited information of features, etc.
I though I had found the perfect instrument: untouched, unrestored, pristine 48K 1920 Aeola that I can get fully restored and into my hands for maybe £3000 and best, not have to pay for it until it is done in December. Still, that's the price of a decent used car in Canada so not a small decision to make
Unfortunately, I am now thinking that I made a mistake to put it on hold as I am really into baroque and renaissance music and am constantly rearranging notes due to a lack of a few low notes.
Current tune I'm working on is Rat in the Bed by Danny Chapman
Danny uses a tenor-treble.
I may be wrong but it seems that the treble can be compared to a violin and tenor-treble a viola. I was under the wrong impression that a tenor-treble is huge (got it confused with a baritone-treble) and so needed more information so started this thread.
I haven't received enough info yet for it to be conclusive but it looks like a treble Aeola model 17 is 6-3/8, (don't know the weight) and a TT is 7-1/4 AF and about 3lbs, 13oz so not a really big difference.
I am struggling with the current prices of the Wheatstone Aeola and so is it really worth it with my limited funds. As much as I would love a 31xxx Boyd model 19 TT Aeola or even one with amboyna ends (sorry, I'm day dreaming here), maybe I should get a 6 sided model 11a (56K TT metal ends) or a model 11 (as above but raised ebony ends) instead. Is it better to look for the lowest priced beat up abused Aeola I can find and really afford or spend the same and get the best model 11 I can find? Is a model 17 Aeola really a model 22 dressed up in it's Sunday best?
I am certainly open to a really nice Lachenal as well like you have. But again is an Edeophone really a New Model just all dressed up? I've read through the Lachenal price lists as well but I can't even figure out where my own BB RE SR circa 1900 fits in.
Excelsiors are very popular. I found your description of your instrument:
Sounds like a very nice concertina! Cross walls in the reed chambers? Dome top versus flat top buttons, silver, glass, nickel, buttons.., more to contemplate!
I should maybe add "button type" to the list (glass, silver / domed, flat, etc). Problem is that most likely the butyon type wasn't consistent even thought same model number as these were all semi-custom built instruments.
I just wish Chris Algar and a few other collects would get together and write that long waited for book covering all this. I would be first in line to get a copy.
Thanks Geoff. This really helps. Awesome!!!
A couple of questions...
Please describe what your model 4a. (27264) is better? Is this an Anglo? I can't find reference to it in the price lists.
Also, how would you describe playing your Model 14. 56K Baritone-Treble? Do find it heavey at all? This will really help me.
Let me compliment you on this instrument as even by the toughest standards... it is right in the middle of the peak 31xxx Wheatstone golden era: 30xxx to 32xxx (1924 to 1933). I would really value your description of it's tone and response.
Wow! What are the chances of that?
Two siblings reunited!
Sizes And Weights Of Different Model Concertinas
in General Concertina Discussion
No. 22 treble - metal ends
No. 6 treble - raised ebony ends
No. 11 tenor-treble - raised ebony ends
No, 14 baritone - 56K (have 8in./203mm) no weight
Lachenal New Model Boyd treble - 48K (presume 6-1/4)
Please look over list at end, Have I missed anything?