4to5to6
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Posts posted by 4to5to6
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I greatly appreciate this Wes. I can't thank you enough! John
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They used a tuning fork as a starting point reference then compared similar harmonics counting the beats to get the correct temperment. Once the middle octave was in tune to the correct temperament, this was used as a reference for the rest of the instrument. Please look up "inharmonicity" and "Pythagorean comma" for more interesting info on this topic...
I've heard that Lachenal supplied complete sets of in-tune reference reeds to sub-contractors who would then tune raw reeds to the reference reed pitches. The pitch of the reed out of the instrument is different from when it is in the instrument. The mystery to me is how they got the right profile of the reed tongue enhancing/suppressing certain harmonics and tuning these harmonics is the big mystery to me. See inharmonicity on Wikipedia.
Thanks,
John
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I'm still searching for C&S 01 no 01.pdf if anyone can help.
Thanks,
John
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Thanks Ken,
It's sad to hear that George Salley has passed away. I'm sure it is ok if I was sent an issue. I'm reading The Wheatstone Concertina by Alan Atlas and he makes references to this volume of C&S, the one I don't have.
The specific pdf file I am searching for is "C&S 01 no 01.pdf" if anyone can sendspace it to me. Let me know if you have this file and I'll message you with my email address and instructions.
Much appreciated,
John
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I am about 50 miles from Vancouver, BC. There is the young lady I sold my duet to of course. Rumors are there is a player in the Fraser Valley but I haven't been able to get a name yet. If you know of someone, please let me know. Probably best to PM me. John
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I started playing music in the mid 70s... I've always been interested in trying the concertina but it wasn't until about 3 years ago a friend of my uncle's brought a few over for me to try... all very inexpensive Anglos. It did inspired me to look around again and I found a Wheatstone Crane Duet in Newfoundland for a very good price. Unfortunately, I only learned a couple of pieces and it ended up on the shelf after a week or so. I sold it a few months ago and instantly had regrets so put in an eBay bid and 8 hours later I was the proud owner of a BB RE MR 48K English Lachenal which although in terrible condition was working fine after about 6 hours of tinkering. I've never stopped since and was soon offered an Excelsior in by far even worse condition (which I've spent well over 100 hours on restoring and still have a long way to go). I finally found an untouched, unrestored Wheatstone M22 which I play everyday and work on almost every day. It's a real gem! I'm having an amazing time both restoring and building up a repertoire at the same time. The English concertina seems to fit me perfectly, both working on them and playing them. I just wish I would of started in the mid 70s when they were a lot easier on the pocket book but it's never too late to start a collection if one is very, very patient. I would love to find an unrestored Aeola TT next, then a Baritone. There are no other player's around me but I am doing my best to change that. John
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I am searching for the PDF copy of Concertina Magazine I/I (winter 1983) which later changed it's name to Concertina & Squeezebox. I understand someone here on Cnet put the entire collection on a CD years ago. I only need the first PDF file. It can be easily sent to me through www.sendspace.com please PM me.
Much appreciated,
John
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Any chance of passing on what it sold for? I'm curious. PM me please.
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I wish it were a treble now that I've given up searching for a TT!
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Please correct me on this, I may be wrong again, but I believe all the ledgers containing info for serial numbers 21,354 (Dec, 1891) to 24,999 (May, 1910) are not available (roughly 3645 units over 18.5 years or 197 units per year). Doing some math (assuming constant production) makes 23102 circa 1900.
I just made up this way of finding the year for the missing ledger years... there is probably a more official way:
(Serial - 21355) divided by 197 plus 1892 = circa year (The John Method)
((23102 - 21,355) / 197) + 1892 = 1900
As a test:
21,353 - 21,355 / 197 + 1892 = 1891.9
Serial number 21,353 is Dec, 1891
25001 - 21,355 / 197 + 1892 = 1910.5
Serial number 25,001 is May, 1910
It works!!!
Date also lines up with "Her Majesty" on the logo as King Edward started his reign in Jan, 1901.
"No. 5" is most likely the model number but I'm not knowledgable enough to know all the features. I keep hoping Chris Algar will write all the vast knowledge in his head down on paper one day.
You can look the model numbers up along with short descriptions in the old price lists available online :
http://www.concertina.com/pricelists/wheatstone-english/
The two closest price lists are 1859 and 1915 so a bit off from 1900 but it should be a bit of help to you anyway.
John
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Here's a serial label from 22551 that's really close. Just "No." added. I think it's awesome that they saved the logo and serial numbers when the baffles were removed.
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23102... The plot thickens! I can't quite read all the writing. The experts on here will know. Isn't this serial one of the ones from the missing ledger?
How about a close up of the label Trish? Now I'm curious
I tried to enhance it but this is the best I can do.
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By the way... the $200 Wheatstone I mentioned earlier turned out not to be an Aeola etc but it is a really nice 1891 Model No.2 with nickel and what appears to be silver trim. Pretty fancy looking! Serial 21205. Looks pretty rough from the photos but everything is there except the thumb strap screws which Mark Adey says he can make for me, so no problem. Two screw steel reeds untouched!!! And to top off everything... the guy sent it to me in the mail from Quebec today! I thought he was just getting me a shipping quote. Now that's trust!!! That's worth some extra cash right there!!!
John
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I'll be watching... Thanks for the insight... I am learning here too... Hmmm...
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Hi Malcolm,
I still think the serial is okay. They took the time to re-glue the logo from the baffle to the bellows paper so it makes sense that they would also transfer over the serial.
Trish, please take it a part again and gently pull the reed pan out. The serial number will be stamped into the wood frame. It is also stamped inside the action box but this can be trickier to reassemble, Just put your finger in the reed pan pull hole and the reed pan will come free.
As I recall the label said By Her Majesties Letters and Patents, 20 conduit Street so pre King Edward (Jan, 1901)
John
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A very similar concertina is on eBay right now with serial No. 1352, ledger dated 1847 (so the serial numbers really are all over the place). Not a lot of details and no mention of reed material. Bone buttons. The opening bid is £600 but no bids and it ends today. It's a UK only auction. Box is the standard vertical wood type similar to what Lachenal used.
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Thanks Wolf. Just dreaming I guess. You are right, the fact is, as much as I would like a TT, availability and price make it impossible anyway. I have no choice but to stick with 48 keys and just see how far I can take it. Lite weight and response are the advantages of a treble as well as availability and lower cost so what's not to like! Contentment!
On the music side, I've been getting into playing scales in double note octaves, a bit of a challenge on the EC. Figured out a new tune today... Tabhair Dom Do Lamh... one of my favourites! I hope to play it for a certain wonderful lady in my life soon! Thoinot Arbeau Bransles tomorrow maybe. I love 1500s music. As long as I'm busy and having fun, I'm happy! It will take me years to master the treble anyway if ever I even can. Action and response is really bad on what I have though which is slowing me down... not that I have to play super fast all the time. Can barely play Danny Chapman's Rat In Bed waltz even without the bass counterpoint. I find bellows control is still the big challenge... It's an art
to play smooth and even but it would be ease if the keys all responded the same! Getting there. I already know the tunes from playing the whistle for years... Tunes are in my head... just have to get them out! Again, I'm really only just the bass player anyway! It's great to be out of the basement for a change.. into the sunshine of the upper octaves.John
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I've been involved in music and the music business nearly my entire life. Here's the common expression that I have always heard:
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where pimps and thieves run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
attributed to Hunter S. Thompson
I must say that it is sure relaxing to play the concertina... if I can just find a decent one at a decent price... I will say no more!!!
A lot of guys like Robert Pich, David Robertson, Chris Algar, to name only a few have been an awesome help! I've searched (harassed) the world!
But... are these musical instruments or antiques? Maybe both! I'm finding out. When I come up with my $500 carbon fibre model that sounds smoother than an Aeola, with unbelievable action, lite weight, even response, speed, balance and dynamics.. and with an indestructible bellows also made of modern materials so that you can leave to whole thing in the back of a boiling hot car all day... look out! Maybe I'm a dreamer... but...
Don't worry... Right now I'm only in it for the joy of playing a tune. To me that's priceless! I'm flat broke and still trekking along with my completely unrestored and out of tune but awesome bone button Lachenal. No cash right now, but I feel like the richest guy on earth discovering what can be done with this wonderful instrument!!!
I'm just a musician therefore no beans to count... Give me a gig!
John
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Thanks Malcolm. That is awesome. I have it bookmarked.
The closest two I could find to 12310 is:
12317 - C1053, Page 8 - Nov, 1864
12319 - C1053, Page 9 - Dec, 1864
So if the serial number is correct lets just call it a circa 1864.
Am I right? I am still learning.
I went through a lot of serial numbers for fun and there is a lot missing. Interesting.
John
PS. I was just offered an old unrestored Wheatstone today for $200 CAD. I don't want to rip anyone off so maybe it will be my turn to do my own research tomorrow. Could it be a TT Aeola!!! Amboyna burl! Tortoiseshell! One can only hope. Thanks again Malcolm. You saved me a lot of time.
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I don't think the case is original to this concertina. Just a guy feeling from looking at Very nice case though. Please check the serial number. An interior photo of it and the reeds would be nice. You said steel but are the reeds two screw or riveted? The indexes for these years were not sequentia so a pain but it should be in there somewherel. I think I found serial 12313 with date 1864. If I have time tomorrow I will page through a few hundred pages and try to find it... reminds of when I genealogy research many years ago,
Please add the bellows photo showing the the Wheatstone logo that has been glued to a bellows paper. Very nice they saved it. I could be put onto the end again with a little TLC.
Very nice concertina. Has it ever been tuned? Pristine, untouched reeds will raise the value.
Thanks,
John
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I'm not surprised. Thread is getting too cluttered. It took me over an hour to try to put together what I did. I'll dig through it all again tomorrow. After 11PM my time and I'm off to bed.
What's a bean counter? An accountant maybe? Obviously not with all my typos, errors and omissions! I'm a musician, can't you tell? Don't answer that!!!
I've nearly made my decision and just about abandoned this but thought I had better finish it off at least the best I can in hopes it can help someone else in the future. I'm either going with a tenor-treble if I can find a decent one or will possibly get a new one built or else I will just stay with a 48K treble for the responsiveness and light weight and then get a secound instrument, probably a baritone or a baritone-treble, whatever overlaps the best.
Actually... Why not? I'm also going to add in the note ranges as well:
C4 is middle C
Treble - G3 to C7
Tenor-Treble - C3 to C7
etc.
I find this stuff interesting and very helpful! I can't thank everyone enough for all the input.
Let's add some more Lachenal's to the list: New Model, Edeophone, Paragon, Inimitable, Excelsior, etc. please.
John
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How do you get around the taxes? Can I get concertinas into Canada tax free from he UK? Is there a trick? That would be nice
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Metal does not become noticeably less springy when cold. There is the Ductile to Brittle transition (DBT) temperature which I believe is something like -50C but I am sure this would not apply unless you are in the north poll! I wonder if the reeds would all snap at this point? Scary thought!!! The original brass Lachenal springs are not the greatest and I have had three break on me. Until they broke, they felt fine.
Only sticky when it's cold you say? You may have some old lubricant on the keys that is not cold friendly. You may just have to do a re-bush. Springs are a bit trickier as they have to placed correctly and tensioned properly for the action of each key to feel responsive and correct. I have to do a complete respring one day because of the broken ones. Jump in off the deep end...
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I haven't tried it on a concertina but use Protek Prolube on piano key pins.
Metal and felt... should be the same thing. Do some research first please.
Try on one of the worst keys then wait a few days.
Spray into a small cup then use a Q-tip to apply.
There's also "PTFE powder" which is applied with a small brush.
Early Tuning. How Was It Done?
in Concertina History
Posted
Since this has gone almost totally off topic, (I like the duscussion and I am learning a few things) whenever temperaments are mentioned I like to recommend the book:
How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care
by Ross W Duffin
Reed scaling is also a fascinating topic. Many concertinas will use the same reed frame size for up to 7 different notes to save money while some manufacturers (Wakker for example) will use a frame size for only 2 notes.
I've tuned many pianos over the years and first started by counting the beats of the overtones. I am just about to begin tuning concertina reeds and while I understand much of the theory and have enough experience to know what a good concertina should sound like, I have no idea how to physically profile a reed tongue. The best wisdom I think will be, at least at first, to just copy the existing profile, then experiment and just hope I don't ruin too many reeds.
The timbre of an instrument is a mostly a result of the number of overtones and the amplitude of overtones. This is why a flutte, trumpet, guitar, concertina sound different even though playing the same note. inharmonicity is simply that the overtones can be out of tune with the fundamental. The stiffness of a string at the ends causes higher overtones to be flat. Pianos are stretch tuned to compensate for this. Higher notes are tuned sharper, lower notes are tuned slightly flat. Apart from scaling (the physical size of the reed tongue in thickness, length, etc.) I understand the profile of a reed drastically affects the number of overtones (harmonics), amplitude of these overtones, therefore tone... the inharmonicity of these overtones.
I know that the reed must be filed perfectly flat or it can vibrate in a figure 8 pattern.
Oops, must go... to be continued...
John