The Different Types Of English

[d.elliott]

The former is a transposed instrument and the fingering is entirely 'wrong' in the treble range, whilst the latter is an extended, but not transposing instrument, which cannot be played as say a baritone band instrument without engaging in sever mental gymnatics.

The only thing I'll disagree with there is your editorializing. "Wrong" fingering and "severe mental gymnastics" are not at all what I experience. The pattern of the "English" keyboard is so completely consistent that octave transposition is almost trivial (there's my own bit of editorializing ).

 

Jim,

In my circles and experience, the 'G' bass is as per the treble, transposed down two octaves, AKA 'full Bass', conta-bass if you like- but I always understood that this was name of the third bass format. The 'C' bass is as per the Treble, transposed down by two octaves, but missing the two lower notes on each side, plus accidentals. eight keys in all. So as you say, the lowest note is in the 'middle 'C'' position.

 

As to baritones, to me the baritone is a single octave transposing instrument, and thus be easily played in a band setting, when I (and others) have tried to play a treble extended down to baritone in that context, we all struggled. Yet playing it as a treble instrument and using its extended range for chords was relatively straightforward. I know someone who bought a treble ext. to Baritone thinking to play it as both a baritone and a treble and it was not successful. Hence my warnings to others about the difficulty factor, or pehaps its just not being such an exeptional player myself.

 

I think that the baritones extended up are quite rare, but I have seen several trebles extended down, although neither are exactly common by anyone's stretch of the imagination, hence the interest.

 

Dave E

[Geoffrey Crabb]

A few more ramblings.

 

I have confined my comments to English system instruments in line with the Thread title.

 

Just to confuse things a bit more, the 56 Treble, when it appeared, was originally referred to as 'Soprano' to distiguish it from the 48 Treble.

 

English System Bass instruments. There are obviously conflicting views on the range and names for English Bass instruments and it must be considered that very many basses were made to individual customer requirements and, like instruments in other ranges, many variations appeared. For that reason and to avoid conflict it is probably best to describe any bass instrument by its range, number & actual layout of buttons and whether single or double action. These would be the details required if I were to make a Bass. The names that were used in price lists etc. were applied to the most commonly requested instruments for which the makers had judged worth 'jigging up' for.

 

It must also be remembered that most ensemble English system players dedicated their time to and became accomplished on the instrument of their choice. It would not be neccessary for, say, a lead Treble (standard 48) player to change to a Baritone (Standard 48) or visa versa. Both would have difficulty.

Today, it seems, that many players want to become accomplished on every type and model of concertina and although it is possible, transition is never going to be easy for the ordinary person and therefore care should be exercised in criticism of the merits of any particular instrument as this could influence both potential buyers and sellers of perfectly good, useful but 'unusual' concertinas.

 

 

 

Geoff

[Larry Stout]

,,,

It must also be remembered that most ensemble English system players dedicated their time to and became accomplished on the instrument of their choice. It would not be neccessary for, say, a lead Treble (standard 48) player to change to a Baritone (Standard 48) or visa versa. Both would have difficulty.

Today, it seems, that many players want to become accomplished on every type and model of concertina and although it is possible, transition is never going to be easy for the ordinary person...

 

I have both a treble and a baritone (both dating from about 1850) and I find little difficulty going from one to the other. The fingering is the same as is the button spacing. Everything is where I expect it to be. The bellows do behave a bit differently and the baritone reeds are slightly slower to respond, but that's a subtlety. I'm not sure that the differences are any greater than differences between different instruments of the same type from the same era. I suspect that those who go back and forth between a Jackie and a Jack notice only small differentces as well.

 

As a concertina player I'm definitely in the "ordfinary" category!

[Henrik Müller]

Aah! That's what I like: quick and dirty answers

/Henrik

[Geoffrey Crabb]

I have both a treble and a baritone (both dating from about 1850) and I find little difficulty going from one to the other. The fingering is the same as is the button spacing. Everything is where I expect it to be. The bellows do behave a bit differently and the baritone reeds are slightly slower to respond, but that's a subtlety. I'm not sure that the differences are any greater than differences between different instruments of the same type from the same era. I suspect that those who go back and forth between a Jackie and a Jack notice only small differentces as well.

 

As a concertina player I'm definitely in the "ordfinary" category!

 

 

Hi Larry,

My previous response referred to changing between 48 Treble and the more commonly made 48 ‘Transposed’ Baritone and is based on many years of listening to comments.

 

With the latter, although the keyboards are positioned the same as the Treble in relation to the thumb straps and are designated the same note name, each key sounds a note an octave lower than the Treble. Therefore mid C appears on the right hand side of the instrument. This is what can cause confusion when using a ‘Transposed’ Baritone to play treble passages. These instruments were intended for part playing and the allocation of notes to keys retained the key board in a 'comfortable' playing position for the fingers.

 

If your Baritone has Mid C on the left in the same position as a Treble in relation to the thumb strap then it is a ‘Non –Transposed’ Baritone and can be played as a Treble but difficulty or discomfort is often experienced in operating the keys at the lower end of the range.

 

Of course if one is changing more permanently to a Baritone English or any other concertina then once familarity of the note positions is aquired, then difficulties should be reduced or eliminated.

 

Even extra-ordinary players consider themselves ordinary.

 

Regards

 

Geoff

[m3838]

As a novice owner of Jackie and Jack, I should note, that seeming sameness of the keyboard doesn't mean that any music, written in Trebble range, can be successfully played an octave lower. Unfortunately, it needs lots of adjustements. Full chordal style of the Trebble must be watered down to single notes with very ocasional chord or two on the Baritone in lower range. On the other hand, full chordal style in mid-high range of the Baritone sounds awfully squeaky on the Trebble and needs addition of low notes.

Just my uneducated observation.

But very interesting thread. I never know about these differences, and often thought about Tenor. What a mistake it would have been fo rme.