English Questions!

[Ptarmigan]

Hey, are Anglo players allowed to speak about the English Concertina here?

 

I've been looking for a Bb/F Anglo recently, in fact I have an option on one in the pipeline.

 

Now the reason I was looking for a Bf/F is because the guys in our group all sing in F & C.

 

However, before I commit myself, I'm wondering how easy it is to play along with songs in C & F on an English Concertina?

 

How easy is it to play the English system after playing the Anglo for nearly 30 years?

 

How easy is it to play both systems at the same time ... if you know what I mean?

 

Also, is it simple enough to play tunes fairly quickly in C & F on an English? You see, our Northumbrian piper's pipes are in F.

 

Cost wise too, am I right in thinking that for the same money I might spend on an OK Bb/F Anglo, I may be able to buy a really good English?

 

I also like the idea of being able to play big rich chords too.

 

So many questions ...... so little time!

 

Cheers

Dick

 

P.S. Last question .... would Anglo players still speak to me, if I started playing an English Concertina?

Edited September 17, 2008 by Ptarmigan

[Anglo-Irishman]

Hey, are Anglo players allowed to speak about the English Concertina here?

 

I've been looking for a Bb/F Anglo recently, in fact I have an option on one in the pipeline.

 

Now the reason I was looking for a Bf/F is because the guys in our group all sing in F & C.

 

However, before I commit myself, I'm wondering how easy it is to play along with songs in C & F on an English Concertina?

 

How easy is it to play the English system after playing the Anglo for nearly 30 years?

 

How easy is it to play both systems at the same time ... if you know what I mean?

 

Also, is it simple enough to play tunes fairly quickly in C & F on an English? You see, our Northumbrian piper's pipes are in F.

 

Cost wise too, am I right in thinking that for the same money I might spend on an OK Bb/F Anglo, I may be able to buy a really good English?

 

I also like the idea of being able to play big rich chords too.

 

So many questions ...... so little time!

 

Cheers

Dick

 

P.S. Last question .... would Anglo players still speak to me, if I started playing an English Concertina?

 

Dick,

As an angloist of many years' standing, I have come to a similar crossroads.

 

My take is that the anglo is very easy and very effective - as long as I get to choose the key. As the number of sharps or flats increases, the capabilities and the ease of playing get less and less. So I have decided to go chromatic!

 

I have no opportunity to try out different concertina systems, so I've studied the various layouts in detail on paper.

The English concertina seemed too much of a paradigm shift for me, with its left-right-left-right scale. The Maccann duet has a similar zig-zag scale, though on one hand (reminiscent of the "square roll" on the banjo, which I have always found difficult). And the zig-zag seems to be irregular, as opposed to the English zig-zag.

So right now, I'm bidding for a Crane duet on Ebay!

With this system, you play three notes of the scale on one row, then skip to the start of the next row. For an accidental, you take the adjacent button in an outer column.

I decided on this system because it is similar in approach to the fretted stringed instruments, and I have been playing the mandolin even longer than the anglo. We shall see how much skill transfer is possible from the anglo and the mandolin respectively!

 

I would also hope that the Crane is more amenable to sight-reading than the anglo, because there are no alternate fingerings to take into account. I expect the increase in difficulty from no accidentals to many accidentals to be less, too. And I expect full chording capability in all keys - it's there, I'll just have to work at it.

 

I have occasionally considered procuring a couple more anglos in different keys, so as to be able to play along properly in many keys - but that's a serious financial and transportation issue!

Cranes (when you can get them) are cheaper than decent anglos, and you only need one of them!

 

Interested to hear how you decide,

Cheers,

John

[Roger Gawley]

Hey, are Anglo players allowed to speak about the English Concertina here?

 

Certainly.

 

However, before I commit myself, I'm wondering how easy it is to play along with songs in C & F on an English Concertina?

 

Fairly easy

 

How easy is it to play the English system after playing the Anglo for nearly 30 years?

 

How easy is it to play both systems at the same time ... if you know what I mean?

 

Depends who you are. Ever met Keith Kendrick?

 

Also, is it simple enough to play tunes fairly quickly in C & F on an English? You see, our Northumbrian piper's pipes are in F.

 

Most Northumbrian pipes seem to be in F-sharpish

 

P.S. Last question .... would Anglo players still speak to me, if I started playing an English Concertina?

 

Probably not. Win some, lose some, Roger

[RatFace]

I swap between English concertina and D/G diatonic accordion all the time and have never experienced any problems at all with regards to getting "confused" between the two scale systems (swapping sides vs in/out). I guess it might be more confusing between Anglo/English, but I doubt if that would be a significant hurdle, assuming you're prepared to put in some work.

 

I also swap between B/C and D/G boxes, and yes there can be a few seconds of having to find your place, but very quickly your brain just slots into the right mode.

 

Playing in F on the English "as easy as playing in G" (i.e. one flat compared to one sharp). The only "problem" is that the standard treble range only goes down to G, so the lowest F on a standard English treble is the F above middle-C - rather high when constructing chords. However, many trebles have the lowest G# or Ab modified to be an F (since the original is duplicated). A tenor-treble obviously solves the problem by going down to C below middle-c

[Dirge]

I've already told you privately (if you got the message?). Buy a Crane.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Dirge

[Michael Reid]

Ptarmigan,

 

On the matter of playing multiple systems, take a look at the comments in the "English v Anglo" thread.

 

If I had to play something in F, I'd find it easier on English than Anglo, I think. That's because I haven't learned Anglo fingering patterns for that key. Playing English relies less on learned finger patterns.

[Ptarmigan]

Hey, are Anglo players allowed to speak about the English Concertina here?

 

I've been looking for a Bb/F Anglo recently, in fact I have an option on one in the pipeline.

 

Now the reason I was looking for a Bf/F is because the guys in our group all sing in F & C.

 

However, before I commit myself, I'm wondering how easy it is to play along with songs in C & F on an English Concertina?

 

How easy is it to play the English system after playing the Anglo for nearly 30 years?

 

How easy is it to play both systems at the same time ... if you know what I mean?

 

Also, is it simple enough to play tunes fairly quickly in C & F on an English? You see, our Northumbrian piper's pipes are in F.

 

Cost wise too, am I right in thinking that for the same money I might spend on an OK Bb/F Anglo, I may be able to buy a really good English?

 

I also like the idea of being able to play big rich chords too.

 

So many questions ...... so little time!

 

Cheers

Dick

 

P.S. Last question .... would Anglo players still speak to me, if I started playing an English Concertina?

 

Dick,

As an angloist of many years' standing, I have come to a similar crossroads.

 

My take is that the anglo is very easy and very effective - as long as I get to choose the key. As the number of sharps or flats increases, the capabilities and the ease of playing get less and less. So I have decided to go chromatic!

 

I have no opportunity to try out different concertina systems, so I've studied the various layouts in detail on paper.

The English concertina seemed too much of a paradigm shift for me, with its left-right-left-right scale. The Maccann duet has a similar zig-zag scale, though on one hand (reminiscent of the "square roll" on the banjo, which I have always found difficult). And the zig-zag seems to be irregular, as opposed to the English zig-zag.

So right now, I'm bidding for a Crane duet on Ebay!

With this system, you play three notes of the scale on one row, then skip to the start of the next row. For an accidental, you take the adjacent button in an outer column.

I decided on this system because it is similar in approach to the fretted stringed instruments, and I have been playing the mandolin even longer than the anglo. We shall see how much skill transfer is possible from the anglo and the mandolin respectively!

 

I would also hope that the Crane is more amenable to sight-reading than the anglo, because there are no alternate fingerings to take into account. I expect the increase in difficulty from no accidentals to many accidentals to be less, too. And I expect full chording capability in all keys - it's there, I'll just have to work at it.

 

I have occasionally considered procuring a couple more anglos in different keys, so as to be able to play along properly in many keys - but that's a serious financial and transportation issue!

Cranes (when you can get them) are cheaper than decent anglos, and you only need one of them!

 

Interested to hear how you decide,

Cheers,

John

 

Thanks for your honest answer John. Like you, I've been playing the Mandolin a lot longer than the Concertina so it all makes perfect sense .... so now, perhaps I shall go & bid on that Crane too ....

 

Cheers

Dick

[Ptarmigan]

I swap between English concertina and D/G diatonic accordion all the time and have never experienced any problems at all with regards to getting "confused" between the two scale systems (swapping sides vs in/out). I guess it might be more confusing between Anglo/English, but I doubt if that would be a significant hurdle, assuming you're prepared to put in some work.

 

I also swap between B/C and D/G boxes, and yes there can be a few seconds of having to find your place, but very quickly your brain just slots into the right mode.

 

Playing in F on the English "as easy as playing in G" (i.e. one flat compared to one sharp). The only "problem" is that the standard treble range only goes down to G, so the lowest F on a standard English treble is the F above middle-C - rather high when constructing chords. However, many trebles have the lowest G# or Ab modified to be an F (since the original is duplicated). A tenor-treble obviously solves the problem by going down to C below middle-c

 

Very interesting. Being an Anglo player, I must confess, I'd never even heard of a Tenor/Treble!

 

Sounds like I would really want to have the option of those lower notes alright.

 

Thanks for the nod on that good point. I shall bear that in mind.

 

Cheers

Dick

[Ptarmigan]

Hey, are Anglo players allowed to speak about the English Concertina here?

 

Certainly.

 

However, before I commit myself, I'm wondering how easy it is to play along with songs in C & F on an English Concertina?

 

Fairly easy

 

How easy is it to play the English system after playing the Anglo for nearly 30 years?

 

How easy is it to play both systems at the same time ... if you know what I mean?

 

Depends who you are. Ever met Keith Kendrick?

 

Also, is it simple enough to play tunes fairly quickly in C & F on an English? You see, our Northumbrian piper's pipes are in F.

 

Most Northumbrian pipes seem to be in F-sharpish

 

P.S. Last question .... would Anglo players still speak to me, if I started playing an English Concertina?

 

Probably not. Win some, lose some, Roger

 

Och well Roger, if Keith can do it, I suppose anyone can!

 

But seriously, I'm sure it's all down to how much time I'm prepared to commit to getting it right.

 

By the way, Sam's N. Pipes are in F alright.

 

I wonder, is it possible to disguise an English to make it look like an Anglo?

 

Cheers

Dick

[Ptarmigan]

I've already told you privately (if you got the message?). Buy a Crane.

 

Yes thanks Dirge for your very helpful message.

 

I'm still poking & prodding around here, just trying to make sure I end up making the right decision.

 

Unfortunately, I guess those Cranes don't come up very often, do they?

 

I certainly wouldn't bid against John. .... { I don't want to lose my C.net license !! }

 

Cheers

Dick

[jon melville]

In the case of the standard treble English, the button next to the useful low G is an utterly useless G#. Not a major problem to have it retuned to F, as I have done, to give that low note for songs and tunes in F or Bb.

[Anglo-Irishman]

I've already told you privately (if you got the message?). Buy a Crane.

 

Yes thanks Dirge for your very helpful message.

 

I'm still poking & prodding around here, just trying to make sure I end up making the right decision.

 

Unfortunately, I guess those Cranes don't come up very often, do they?

 

I certainly wouldn't bid against John. .... { I don't want to lose my C.net license !! }

 

Cheers

Dick

 

Dick,

Just take your time and think it over carefully for a couple of days. Like until that auction is over ...

 

Chris Algar put it this way: he doesn't get them that often, but they're like busses - they come three at a time!

 

Interesting that you're a mandolinist, too. I think it's that background that made the Crane system go "click" in my mind when I looked closely at it. We often talk about button layouts being "logical" or "illogical" - but what most of us find logical is what follows logically from what we are familiar with. I'm quite sure that an English-concertina player, looking for a duet system, would find the Maccann more logical (because to me, as an angloist and string player, they look similarly illogical).

 

I'll let you know what it's like learning a Crane with our background when I've won that auction ...

 

Cheers,

John

[Larry Stout]

I play English most of the time. When I decided I wanted to try a duet it was the Crane, not the Maccann, which looked logical to me. Now it I could only find twice the time to practice so I could master both systems.

[Dirge]

Dick asked me about the 71 key Lachenal Maccan I have for sale, and did I think it might suit his playing? I thought that as he accompanies singers and dancers, and, as I understood it, is mostly improvising, the large range was not necessary for him. As I see it there are really 2 reasons for going the Maccan route, with it's much more discouraging starting stages; one is because bigger instruments with greater compass are easily available, and the other is that there are a good choice of high quality instruments about (and at relatively reasonable prices too; £2000 for a good one is a lot of money but look what you'd get in the Anglo world for that).

 

(I didn't say this to you, Dick but I have a sneaking suspicion that being able to play another concertina system is close to the kiss of death to any chance of succeeding with a Maccan; when you get discouraged you can just slide off to what you knew before. If it's your only instrument you have to slug away, having financially nailed your colours to the mast.)

 

I suggested to Dick he look at a Crane or even consider ordering a Wakker Hayden and enjoyed the rare luxury of a brand new bespoke instrument. (and I notice that Bob Tedrow also lists a Hayden, Dick) I thought he should definitely get a duet, though. Couldn't see that English gained him nearly so much.

[Ptarmigan]

I've already told you privately (if you got the message?). Buy a Crane.

 

Yes thanks Dirge for your very helpful message.

 

I'm still poking & prodding around here, just trying to make sure I end up making the right decision.

 

Unfortunately, I guess those Cranes don't come up very often, do they?

 

I certainly wouldn't bid against John. .... { I don't want to lose my C.net license !! }

 

Cheers

Dick

 

Dick,

Just take your time and think it over carefully for a couple of days. Like until that auction is over ...

 

Chris Algar put it this way: he doesn't get them that often, but they're like busses - they come three at a time!

 

Interesting that you're a mandolinist, too. I think it's that background that made the Crane system go "click" in my mind when I looked closely at it. We often talk about button layouts being "logical" or "illogical" - but what most of us find logical is what follows logically from what we are familiar with. I'm quite sure that an English-concertina player, looking for a duet system, would find the Maccann more logical (because to me, as an angloist and string player, they look similarly illogical).

 

I'll let you know what it's like learning a Crane with our background when I've won that auction ...

 

Cheers,

John

 

Good Luck John, & yes, I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with the Crane.

 

Cheers

Dick

[Ptarmigan]

In the case of the standard treble English, the button next to the useful low G is an utterly useless G#. Not a major problem to have it retuned to F, as I have done, to give that low note for songs and tunes in F or Bb.

 

Thanks Jon,

 

That IS very useful to know & it could just swing it for me, going for an English instead of a Tenor/Treble or a Crane.

 

Cheers

Dick

[Ptarmigan]

I play English most of the time. When I decided I wanted to try a duet it was the Crane, not the Maccann, which looked logical to me. Now it I could only find twice the time to practice so I could master both systems.

 

Hey Larry, if you don't have time to play your Crane ................

 

 

 

Cheers

Dick

[Ptarmigan]

Dick asked me about the 71 key Lachenal Maccan I have for sale, and did I think it might suit his playing? I thought that as he accompanies singers and dancers, and, as I understood it, is mostly improvising, the large range was not necessary for him. As I see it there are really 2 reasons for going the Maccan route, with it's much more discouraging starting stages; one is because bigger instruments with greater compass are easily available, and the other is that there are a good choice of high quality instruments about (and at relatively reasonable prices too; £2000 for a good one is a lot of money but look what you'd get in the Anglo world for that).

 

(I didn't say this to you, Dick but I have a sneaking suspicion that being able to play another concertina system is close to the kiss of death to any chance of succeeding with a Maccan; when you get discouraged you can just slide off to what you knew before. If it's your only instrument you have to slug away, having financially nailed your colours to the mast.)

 

I suggested to Dick he look at a Crane or even consider ordering a Wakker Hayden and enjoyed the rare luxury of a brand new bespoke instrument. (and I notice that Bob Tedrow also lists a Hayden, Dick) I thought he should definitely get a duet, though. Couldn't see that English gained him nearly so much.

 

Arrrrrrrggg Dirge ... So many Concertinas .. so little time!

 

I don't know what it's like where you are Dirge but there are no players of Cranes or McCanns or even Duets over here & believe it or not, only one English player that I know of, which is of course a big drawback, cause it'd make life so much easier for me, if I could have a wee rattle on each, before I took the plunge.

 

Also, not having a large pile of money in my pocket means that I am a little restricted in my choices.

Couldn't see that English gained him nearly so much.

I wonder, does that go for a Tenor/Treble too, Dirge?

 

Anyway, many thanks to everyone who has replied so far.

 

It's great to get all these ideas out in the open, to help me choose.

 

Cheers

Dick