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michael sam wild

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    William Mullally's Wheatstone

    in Concertina History

    Posted · Edited by michael sam wild

    She [played tunes commonly played in D in B up and down the B row which to me implied a one row D style she learned as a girl. I wish we could get that LP reissued

     

    It seems that the 2 row which is most likely what Mullally started on was usually played along the outer row so rather than G/D I go for the D/A with a D/D drone

     

     

    I'll be in Newfoundland in August on a bit of a musical quest, and this discussion has some relevance to the situation there. The tradition there is a combination of pre-reel Irish and Elizabethan West Country English, with an overlay of more recent irish immigration, and Country & Western! 1 & 2 row button accordions rule. The most popular tuning is D for the single row, and DA for the 2 row. Jigs & polkas are the mainstay, with reels being played at the more "Irish" sessions. Currently, concertinas are almost unknown- You can count the known players on 1 hand, and one of them is originally from Ireland. However, some older folks I've talked to remeber them being around before the War, and I came accross a reference to a ship wreck being salvaged in the late 19th century which was carrying 1000s of german concertinas. I've thought about how to play traditional newfoundland music authentically on an instrument that is no longer part of the tradition, but might once have been.

     

    i got the Mullally package and have listened with great interest. My main instrument is a GD.

     

    Hi Bill

     

    By strange coincidence at Bradfield yesterday in Mark Davies' barn at Edgemount, Roger Digby and Liz Giddings were teaching some tunes in D from Minnie White the od lady with the melodeon/accordion. fascinating to see how she came back after bringing up the kids and played in the old way. There is a great youtube piece. Have you any comments on what type of box she played it was a red Hohner .?

    William Mullally's Wheatstone

    in Concertina History

    Posted · Edited by michael sam wild

    Thanks for the responses. Paul, I agree you can 'fudge' C naturals in a lot of tunes but it is helpful when playing in G isn't it nowadays although C# seems to have used by earlier players. I read that Tuohy used it on pipes in tunes which were effectively in G. I've noticed in O'Neill you have to play tunes and then make an informed decision about key or notes to use. I did notice on the Kitty Hayes Remembered CD where she missed out Bb when playing along the C row of her C/G , she carried on by herself on one tune and used a quickly touched Bnat, the others came in with Bb which is more commonly used. Playing laong with recordings often revelas some interesting little gems , and when you haven't the privilege of seeing people in action it helps a lot

     

    Bill N best of luck in NFL I know a lot of the older Itrish Ameriacans used D as a one row or as one row in a 2 row. I hope you have some success re the concertina, it sounds like a Whisky Galore scenario and would make a great short story or film, Annie Proulx might like it. Maybe someone there can do what Jody and Bertram are doing with old time American music.

     

    Bill C thanks for that photo, by record they mean on shellac not, as Dan Worrall showed, on record. By the way they use Mullally as his name which was how his father spelled it I believe.I wonder how he'd spell it nowadays if he were a young professional Irish concertina player ;)

    D/A anglos . Were they available in the older days?

    in General Concertina Discussion

    Posted · Edited by michael sam wild

    Thanks Paul, I posted this before your latest very helpful post reached England!

     

    As another slant on this , when I was listening a lot to older players like Mickie Donoghue, who mary MacNamara knew, I realised that they played D minor ''old style' on the C row of the C/G. When I was studying Bertram Levy's first tutor book he talked about the key of D but I realised the tune he used, Morning Dew was in D minor and you could do a lot with simple chord patterns along the C row.

     

     

    This clouded my usually sceptical brain B) and convinced me that the Paddy Murphy derived cross row style was a natural evolution in playing in D from that older way of playing and for those that work on that style it comes with time and opens up lots of possibilities. As a mouth organ player I would reach for a D mouth organ to change the key. But not being aware that D/A concertinas had been available to such as Mullally I went against my playing of D on the rows on melodeon and mouth organ and went on the long road to modern cross row playing on C/G with which I still grapple.

     

     

     

    The other weekend I was in a session at the Commercial at Cleckheaton festival led by Dave Mallinson (Mally) on his D/G melodeon and I thought why do I subject myself to anxiety on a C/G Anglo when nearly all the tunes played that day were in D or G and which I played happily for years on D/G melodeon and D or G mouth organs!? I didn't go over to B/C or C#/D accordion any more than Mally, Tim Edy etc, so why did I accept that C/G anglo was the only way to go with concertinas?.

     

     

     

    As I heard more and more old players playing happily along the rows for dance music which most of the music I'm talking about is I began to think , 'blow it' I'll go back a bit, I'm old enough and can do what I want!

     

     

    Don't get me wrong folks, The journey on C/G has been well worth it and I know I can handle the newer styles if I need them and C/G will be my main instrument for all sorts of reasons, It's just another addition to the armoury on this fascinating instrument.

    ,

    I wish we'd not lost that old 2 row of my Gran's ( born in the 1880s) all those years ago, last time I saw it was in 1948 when I was 9 and she was long gone. It was in the coal house going mouldy on a shelf.

    D/A anglos . Were they available in the older days?

    in General Concertina Discussion

    Posted · Edited by michael sam wild

    I'm aware of several D/A tuned 12 sided Wheatstones -- Grey Larson has one. These were custom made by Wheatstone for customers in the Cincinatti, Ohio area. If I remember correctly, at least Grey's came with a second set of reedpans but I don't remember their tuning. If you check back on old threads you can probably determine when these were made because they've been discussed before.. Greg J. will likely remember, but he's currently at Irish Arts week. But, I don't think that many were made in that tuning.

     

    Ross Schlabach

     

     

    Is that D/A with the A row a fifth higher in pitch ( a converted C/G) or like Ken mentions in his compendium with the A a fourth lower? I'm considering what Alex has I think and Paul seems to indicate it can be achieved by doing a lot of reed swaps etc with some retuning of reeds.There must be quite a few 2 rows or some with only a few accidentals

    William Mullally's Wheatstone

    in Concertina History

    Posted

    Thanks Paul, hope you are well.I got a bit puzzled when reading Jackie Small's comments in the book on page 22 about the D draw note used by Mullally in some tunes e.g. The Races of Athlone on Track 2b. If his concertina were G/D as Dan Worrall postulates in his book( an Ab/Eb conversion Wheatstone Linota) There would not be a D4 draw . If it were a C/G conversion to D/G again no D4 draw. Or on a D/A no D4 draw. So the D/D drone makes sense as it is suggested by the transcriptions that it went against a G draw. He didn't use it much in any case on the 78s and played mainly in D.

     

     

     

    On page 23 Jackie Small states that 'there is insufficient evidence to state definitively what the overall tuning of his concertina system or systems was.' so we'll have to wait till it turns up somewhere. He may have had one in New Orleans where he is said to have died in an institution estranged from his family or the one he is said to have given to his nephew in Philadelphia when he became disillusioned with the professional music business, may turn up

     

    Meanwhile I'll go on Tabledit and transpose the book's transcripts to C and see how I do :)

     

     

     

    To play in G off the D row you'd do what Kitty Hayes did to play in F off the C row but it might need a C natural as an accidental... on the index finger of the accidental row of a 21 button to get along with most other players in G.

    William Mullally's Wheatstone

    in Concertina History

    Posted · Edited by michael sam wild

    This is a catch up after a couple of years

    Since the CD and book came out in 2011 a lot more has been revealed and having at last adopted a slowdowner my understanding has grown. I have a G/D Lachenal and explore the D row and make comparisons with the D mouthorgan and D row on melodeon. Thanks to Paul Groff for his great work on early one row melodeon players. What helped clinch things for me was listening carefully and playing along to my Rose Murphy LP. She was originally from Galway - P.J.Conlon's sister and lived near us , in Maltby, South Yorkshire, having married an Irishman Tom Murphy who was a miner. When she was persuded to get back into the music late in life she got a B/C box which was common by then in Irish music circles . She [played tunes commonly played in D in B up and down the B row which to me implied a one row D style she learned as a girl. That Hohner box is still safe. She played fiddle in more usual, keys!

     

     

    I wish we could get that LP reissued

     

     

    It seems that the 2 row which is most likely what Mullally started on was usually played along the outer row so rather than G/D I go for the D/A with a D/D drone

    D/G or C/G tuning?

    in General Concertina Discussion

    Posted · Edited by michael sam wild

    Having played D/G melodeon for many years for English and Irish music I moved to Anglo. I chose C/G and am glad I did. I found G off the C row best, as Mick Bramich recommends , rather than along the G inner row. It is trickier to play in D and A but you get there with practice if you persevere at cross row playing.

     

     

    If you want to play alone or with friends you can adapt D tunes to C and play along the rows like Howard says. You could adapt G tunes in F on the C row or go to the G row and play along the row

     

     

    If I were playing for morris and social dances or singing in G or D I'd use a G/D but not for Irish music, it works but not as well as cross row C/G where the pay off for hard work is great.

     

     

     

    On the other hand a D/A would be nice!B)

     

     

     

     

     

    All the information available helps you try lots of styles on a C/G. For song accompaniment, if you can sing in C you ahve lots of chord opportunities. Quite a few singers actually get a few concertinas to simplify things but that's a whole ball game in itself.

    Kitty Hayes Remembered

    in Concertina Videos & Music

    Posted

    I know what you mean, I think when instruments were less common and less studied by people like us here, folk got what they could and got tunes out of them. In the process some great techniques evolved, often not what the makers intended, you see it with accordions , melodeons and mouth organs where some very interesting approaches have been adopted. cajun, blues, tex mex,zulu squashbox etc etc. I just love trying to understand the process and how the playing and the tunes interacted. What can seem a limtation often gives fascinating opportunities.

    Kitty Hayes Remembered

    in Concertina Videos & Music

    Posted · Edited by michael sam wild

    Michael, you're making a few assumptions there that aren't correct:

     

    her father who played with older pipers

     

    He didn't, he played with flute and fiddle players. In fact pipers were few and far between. Willie Clancy for example never heard a piper until he was in his early twenties.

     

    If earlier players had C pipes

     

    C pipes were relatively uncommon compared to B and D sets

     

    how the early players adapted the C/G Anglo to play along the C row on a two row instrument.

     

    I think it's probably more the other way around, the C/G wasn't adapted to play in C, it was Paddy Murphy who adapted the C/G to play in D on the mistaken assumption that what he heard William Mullally do on the 78 rpms was done on on a C/G.

     

    Thanks Peter I'm grateful for that info. I had been given information by a pipe maker that indicated C tuning was common. I bow to your knowledge :)

     

     

     

    As far as playing in C, I do think older players on their own would take tunes more usually played in D and G and put them in more C row friendly keys

     

    I reached the same conclusion about Paddy Murphy. As C/G concertinas were more common it is likely that anyone hearing Mullally(, the only widely available 78 recording of an anglo player) would try to play in D on the C/G.

    . I had a go at the jig in D on his first track (Jackson's Thought =Cherish the Ladies) Transposed into C it goes much more easily along the row . He would find it straightforward along his D row concertina ( I still suspect it would be a D/A) He was still a brilliant player as were Kimmel and Conlon on the melodeon/button accordion where they played up and down the rows in the press and draw fashion

     

     

    I'd be very grateful to hear what Kitty Hyes had to say about why she chose F on the C/G. Please get in touch if you'd like to let me know or can point me to any published material

    Thanks

     

    Mike

    Kitty Hayes Remembered

    in Concertina Videos & Music

    Posted

    I have been listening carefully to A Touch of Clare, (2001) , recorded in a kitchen in Ennis. The number of tunes in F is very interesting and I am beginning to appreciate how the early players adapted the C/G Anglo to play along the C row on a two row instrument. Kitty Hayes was born 1926 and learned off her father who played with older pipers etc. He must have been a second or first generation player and they were making it up as they went along as were melodeon players.

     

     

     

    Tunes we now commonly accept in D and G must have been influenced by playing with concert fluters. These had come onto the folk market as newer systems came into orchestras. D pipes came into wider use at the end of the C19th and fiddlers like D and G

     

     

     

    If earlier players had C pipes , Clarke's C whistles and mouth organs in C then concertina players could go for C and F in sets, although they seem to have played the same tune for a long spell in a dance. Even when early 1920s 78 records came in they could adapt the tunes to play D/G sets in C/F. many would play alone , particularly women in the house while men were out at work or off socialising.

     

     

    By 'fudging' or composing new variants they could get a long way on the C row, D minor is relative to F and A minor to C.

     

     

    What I have found is that once you have 'turned your head round' F is nice , you don't go below C very much on the LHS and on the right, for a right handed player the highest note on the RHS is a on the little finger which seems stronger than on the LHS. The playing is nice and bouncy and economical and octaves and simple 2 note chords and inversions fall under the fingers. You hardly need to touch the air button and can play for ages.

     

    You don't miss the B flat after a while and seek out other notes that would fit with other players who might use it.

     

     

    I don't think a Bb/F concertina would be necessary at all and playing in F on the C/G is just another style in the armoury of the very versatile C/G.( a cajun player would play in G on a one row C accordion and a concertina could do the same with some tuning tweaks to get that sound)

     

     

    I am now also seriously thinking of converting a C/G to D/A (as opposed to the common G/D used by 'English' players) That would allow D and G on the 'middle' row so that you could play along in sessions in this 'old style' fashion and get the common session keys, after all D and A on a C/G are very challenging and counterintuitive to a simple diatonic player.

     

    In fact a one row D concertina would be very nice and cheap to construct

     

     

    There has been discussion before on c.net where it has been suggested that William Mullaly played a D/A tuned concertina, the recent CD and booklet still does not clear up the mystery of what instrument he played (IMHO)

    Flat keys vs. domed keys

    in General Concertina Discussion

    Posted

    I have a Lachenal Anglo G/D with flat bone buttons. I love bone but not flat ends. Bill Crossland is putting on Suttner metal ended with a wider bushing

     

     

     

    I had a Connor , Lachenal refurb with domed metal buttons which I found too narrow. There has been previous discussion on the optimum profile on domed buttons

    Drones

    in General Concertina Discussion

    Posted

    drone, French bourdon, in music, a sustained tone, usually rather low in pitch, providing a sonorous foundation for a melody or melodies sounding at a higher pitch level. The term also describes an instrumental string or pipe sustaining such a tone—e.g., the drone strings of a hurdy-gurdy or the three drone pipes of some bagpipes. A drone may be continuous or intermittent, and an interval, usually the fifth, may replace the single-pitch drone.

     

    Encyclopaedia Britannica

    http://www.britannic...ic/171795/drone

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Thanks Howard, Maybe the origin of the word used verse in The Jolly Grinder of the Don, 'And still the burden of his song'etc.... The main theme

    Learning By Ear - The next step -Beyond Sheet Music

    in Teaching and Learning

    Posted

    Getting your head round the 3 chord trick helps in the keys you commonly use. Also using Do Re mi for the scale helps youi put tunes into any key and is worth working on by singing or lilting the tune, particularly a familiar song, words seem to help a lot even doggerel, as morris and other dance musicians found. Also I notice ear players tap their feet much more than dot readers.

     

    I agree about listening and playing along even if you miss some notes out it drives you along and you get the skeleton and the rhythm.. Ornamentation and chords come later, let the melody drive you at first.

    Drones

    in General Concertina Discussion

    Posted · Edited by michael sam wild

    Peter Bellamy fitted a swinging arm ( as on a microscope stage) that held down the C drone button on Anglo, it worked in both push and pull, the same note. I don't have a drone button and tend to agree with Frank ( who is a Scottish pipe player I believe)but do use the effect like Irish pipers do with regulators, a bit like Howard advises.usually 1,5 note chords

     

     

     

    I recently went to an Indian music event and they had a drone provided by a boy with a hand organ /piano and also an electronic drone that was effective

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