Łukasz Martynowicz
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Posts posted by Łukasz Martynowicz
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4 hours ago, DaveRo said:
I had asked @vpo whether he was concerned about the weight of the Bandotina:
- Edward Jay's 74 button Haydon concertina - 2.3kg
- Edward Jay's 74 button Bandotina - 2.8kg
Those weights are from Edward's website.
By contrast:
- 42 button Peacock - 1.2kg
- 46 button Stagi Haydon - 1.8kg
- 52 button Beaumont - 1.4kg
I bought a Peacock partly because I found the Stagi too heavy. I'd like a Beaumont if I could get hold of one!
The extra reeds must account for much of the Jays' weight. Is a 'plastic' concertina like the Jays likely to be heavier or lighter than a hybrid wooden one, such as my Peacock, with the same number of buttons?
My wooden 66b with brass shoed reeds, which are heavier than aluminum ones, weights 2.4kg. IIRC more than half of this weight comes from the reeds, with a significant contribution from brass action and a bit too thick button caps. My 3D printed 45b with oversized aluminum reeds and repurposed Elise bellows that has huge wooden frames weights 1.4kg. Here, most of this weight comes from the reeds and IIRC all plastic parts were about half of spool, so not more than 0,5kg.As to plastic vs wood - 3D printed parts have 1-1.5 mm thick walls and typically 85% of the part’s volume is just air, making prints of anything, not just concertinas, lighter than those same parts made traditionally from other materials bar some lightest woods. In a lot of cases parts actually have to be additionally weighted with steel inserts.
Now about the weight of duets overall - both me and Didie actually prefer heavier instruments (outside of traveling purposes) and Didie contemplated adding weights to his Beaumont. This is because playing accompaniment on a heavy and thus more stable box is way easier. You also most probably play such instrument seated, so there is no shoulder fatigue problem, and you do not work the bellows in bisonoric style, so there is no innertia problem.
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2 hours ago, Don Taylor said:
You might try your local pharmacy, I saw a 500ml bottle 0f 99.9% in ours a couple of days ago. I am not sure what it is used for medicinally.
To make cheap sterilising solution, that is safe to use on skin. Just add water to dilute it to 70% and voila. It is the cheapest option I have found and have been using it throughout the entire COVID period. It is 3x cheaper than buying branded solutions like Skinman etc… -
Interesting. I didn’t realise, that readily available 99.9% Ethyl is problematic to get in some countries. Here in Poland you can get it in specialised art/renovation supply shops. I don’t know if they deliver outside of Poland, but I guess there might be a chance for EU delivery from here: https://www.art-konserwacja.pl/produkty-pomocnicze-149/
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A boring story of a google search for me, when I tried to figure out notes arrangement on my cheapest ebay DDR 20b Anglo. That was 2009. But it was only years later that I actively joined this site. It is typical for me to first lurk forums for a year or two before wanting to post anything and having to create an account.
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9 hours ago, alex_holden said:
The original complicated jigs took me a few days of work each to make. I made two because my first instrument had four sides and my second had six. When my third instrument had eight sides I couldn't be bothered making another complicated jig and, for a while, I made my bellows with no jig at all. With my instruments all being bespoke I have probably made about ten different sizes/shapes of bellows so far and I expect that trend to continue. I now feel the simple dowel jigs are a reasonable compromise between speed of manufacture and ease of use. If I was running a production line that was constantly making identical bellows every day then a more complicated jig might be worth the effort.
It does help to attach the bellows frames to the end boards so they don't flop around during assembly. It's a bit hard to explain but the spacing sort of works itself out if the core is the right size and you set the distance between the ends such that the valleys are loosely resting on the core.
The difficult part has to do with the difference in depth between the inner cards and the end cards which gives you the inset - I've got that wrong more than once. It's a good idea to take the bellows off the jig and check they look and move as they should after attaching the linen hinges but before attaching any leather parts.
Exactly my experience with making bellows that are attached to the frames - you only need the jig size to be exact and frames mounted dead center - folds space out evenly by themselves. I used simple octagonal prism cut from MDF. I can’t be sure, but I suppose that „Wakker bellows” are made with similar „freeform” setups. -
5 hours ago, vpo said:
Wonderful.. Thanks David.
With respect to you and your instruments, Lucasz, I’m also rather interested in Ed Jays instruments.. in particular his Bandotina ( no shortage of notes there!)... but he doesn’t seem to be responding via his website email. Perhaps I’m ending up in his junk mail. Might anyone know how otherwise he can be contacted, I wonder.
He’s active on facebook concertina groups, you can try there. And I can very much recommend his Haydens - I helped him develop them
He is currently working on extending the range of his Bandotin down to F2 (current iteration goes down only to A2, which is greatly limiting accompaniment capabilities).
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As to my personal slant/no slant preference. I have a couple of years of slanted experience on Elise vs current no slant 66b and I vastly prefer no slant. Especially on RH, where it greatly increases pinky usability. Overall ease of navigation is also increased due to symmetrical vertical alignment of rows.
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1 hour ago, vpo said:
Yes, The Troubadours seem to be offered mirrored or not as per preference, the others not so… but it’ll makes sense to go with what is commonly found, I’m sure. DaveRo, thanks for your very kind offer. I’m a bit tied up at the moment, but may pm you and take you up on that offer. Thanks a lot. I’m probably going to be selling my little Wheatstone Pinhole Aeola Treble English.. (will appear here in due course) and Freebase accordion to part fund this so I suspect it’s going to take a little while unless exactly the right thing presents itself quickly. Thanks again to you both… if anyone hears of anyone selling secondhand, please point them my way:) Vince
Apart from the difference in fingering, mirrored layout also changes bellows behaviour, so there is that to consider.
As to my to-be instrument: 6 1/4 or 6 1/3”, square, 3D printed, harmonikas.cz brass DIX reeds (accordion style), probably three options - 40, 46 and 50b in the same box (upgradeable later on). 40b version will have RH Troubadour layout and the same repeated for the LH (octave lower of course), 46 is „standard” and 50 will extend the standard down to Bb key (however, there will be mixed Eb/D# positions due to lever routing restrictions in such a small box, so it won’t be easy-peasy key). No slant, non-mirrored (however mirrored could probably be made to order, as it doesn’t require any layout redesign).
Prices yet to be established, but somewhere between Stagi and Troubadour probably.
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2 hours ago, DaveRo said:
Concertina Connection sell the 36-key Troubadour - Wim Wakker introduced it in this thread
He also mentioned the proposed Peacock XL in that thresd - but he hasn't mentioned it since.
Where in the world are you? I think most Beaumonts are in the US - but I'm guessing. Does anybody know how many were made?
Is it a Hayden or Wicki layout - or haven't you decided
There will be no slant if that is what you ask. Original Wicki layout also had mirrored fingering. -
51 minutes ago, vpo said:
Hello everyone. I’m looking to obtain a Hayden Duet, preferably a Beaumont or Peacock ( which I realise will be hard to find ) but will consider anything with at least 36 keys but preferably more. I currently play mostly jazz ballads and folk on my 2 Wheatstone English concertinas. Will appreciate any information if anyone knows someone who might be interested to sell. Thanks to all.
If you're not in too much hurry, I may be releasing 40-50b 3D printed Hayden later this year (late fall probably). The higher button count variant will cover similar range as Beaumont.
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15 hours ago, SmougyG said:
How is that prototype working out? Any updates ?
Waiting for the reeds to arrive I started renovating my workshop and it prooved more labourous than I thought (115 years old building is full of surprises). The concept phase is done however, I just can’t start printing it for another month or so. But while my schedule is delayed, my goal stands firm.-
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2 hours ago, Narvitopia said:
Never mind, figured it out!
I’m really interested in hearing what you came up with, as this piece covers pretty much an entire range of my 66b. Even the melody part stretches over the whole RH…You should hovever be able to play the third part in full IIRC. Given it is similar to the first part, you can skip the range problem by playing the end of the third part in place of the ending of the first part. I sometimes do this by mistake if I’m not focussed enough.
There is no way however to play the middle part on anything smaller than 46 „standard” and it still requires crossing to the LH with the melody.
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43 minutes ago, DaveRo said:
I did - right at the start! I read your posts and looked at your examples. I was certainly attracted to the concept.
But I concluded that I needed to know the old system to find stuff to play. And once I start learning that I might as well live with it.
There is always an option to be "bilingual"
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1 hour ago, DaveRo said:
Having bought a concertina in my 70s, having never played an instrument (apart from a bit of piano before I was 10) I decided that learning a bare minimum of dots, and then playing those dots, was a way forward. So far it works for me - ish. I'm finding that I'm beginning to relate the dots on the staff to the button layout. But if I look at a dot, I don't readily recall the name of the note A,B,C...
Perhaps in ten or twenty years I'll be able to do what you describe.
By contrast, having 50 years experience of computers, I find transposing ABC or sheet music a doddle. My choice of a Hayden was predictable: I'm an engineer not a musician.
As you probably figured out by now, playing on a Hayden is all about geometry, not note names. So if you decipher the series of finger movements in one key, the same series of finger movements apply in any other key.
If you’re just beginning learning dots you may want to look at a specific alternative notation system, Parncut 6-6 Tetragram. It has a „built in” reference to Hayden rows layout and is way easier to sight read than traditional dots.
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8 hours ago, DaveRo said:
I often transpose a tune to fit within the compass of my 42-button Peacock duet. These are usually 2-part tunes. Sometimes I have to choose between the accompaniment going off the bottom or the melody going off the top. If I can find the music in ABC it's easy, as several people have said. I change the bass clef to treble-8 at the same time.
If I only have staff notation I use an Android app - Music Scanner by David Zemsky - to convert it to MusicXML, which Easy ABC can import, and then transpose it. The app will work from a pdf, a screenshot from a website, or by photographing sheet music. And it will play it - which is a feature I often come back to when trying to learn it!
Why exactly you need any written transposition to transpose on a Hayden? Simply „relabel” buttons mentally to „shift” the layout to a desired key and play. Geometry of the music stays the same, unless you’re aiming at a „wrap around” key. This is one of the main features of all isomorphic layouts. -
Well, I’ve designed unique handles
if that counts. The benefit is decoupling the wrist while retaining bellows control, and anchoring the hand firmly, so I don’t get lost on 66b Hayden. I never got along with hand straps, as I have really long fingers.
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Given the goal of this excercise, I would skip it entirely. As Alex wrote, replacing accordion style reedpan for flat mounted one means you have to replace entire interior. With your listed workshop capabilities, I would save only the bellows and made entire new endboxes+innards from scratch. This way you can continue to play this instrument while you’re building the new one. You then switch the bellows and reeds to the new one and start building yet another instrument. This time around entirely from scratch and less bad, since you will now have enough knowledge about concertina building basics, to at least know what you are doing
An old quote from the first Matrix movie is very adequate here: „Everybody fails the first time”
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It is basically a guitar version of a Janko piano layout, with just a slight skew of the unisons line. This layout is very straightforward to play on for Hayden player. I've recently designed a 3D printable piano-to-Janko conversion set for M-Audio digital piano, and I think I might look into expanding to Harpeji next
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On 3/29/2023 at 2:06 PM, ttonon said:
If I understand correctly, this instrument differs from the conventional bandoneon only in the keyboard arrangement of how/where the notes appear and that the sound sources are conventional free reeds (it's not an electronic instrument). My guess is that there thus should not be much difference in the sounds between the two instruments, unless the positional arrangements of the reeds have some subtle affect on sound.
I agree with many here that it sounds mellow, and that also means that I don't hear the more shrill higher frequencies that I hear with the conventional instrument in the upper half of the tonal range. It's a bit puzzling why those overtones are not there, if the traditional 2-notes per key (an octave apart) is maintained with the new instrument. For me, those shrill tones, and I believe for many others, adds to the startling effect traditional bandoneon music offers. But maybe I'm just not hearing what's really there.
In that regard, how is this recording made? How many mics were used and where were they?
I'd say this sound file is only an introduction to the enormous range of effects this particular bandoneon should offer, and it would take a skilled musician playing with full dynamic excitement to make a full evaluation.
I do see the potential that a simplified/uniformized keyboard has for beginners, and this may be the greatest advantage of the new instrument.
Best regards,
Tom
www.bluesbox.biz
My guess would be, that either reed frames are made from aluminum instead of traditional zinc, and/or that they are in individual frames instead of on common plate. Didie, do you know what reeds are installed in your bandotin?
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I can recommend Harmonikas, especially their DIX range, which not only sound great, but are also easier to work with than italian reeds, as they are slightly shorter but also slightly wider for the same size, so can have larger clearance between the inner valve and the chamber wall. They do sell single sets and even single reeds. They also do have „concertina” range, though those are semi-traditional only, as they still have accordion style trapezoid tongues. However, their current lead time is around 12 weeks.
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Just now, Clive Thorne said:
Genuine question: Is there a problem playing non equal temperament instruments alongside equal temperament instruments, or indeed with instruments of a different non-equal temperament?
If not then great. If so, then unless you're a purist or a strictly solo player then I'd suggest sticking with equal temperament as I suspect that the vast majority of instruments are (please correct me if I am wrong).
Instruments in different temperaments were played together since the very invention of temperaments in Renaissance, as lutes were usually tuned in equal temperament and keyboard instruments were not. However, how badly out of tune with each other instruments in such ensembles sound depends very much on the tune itself - how melody and harmony interact, which intervals are used, which key the tune is in, how modern the tune is etc. It also depends very much on which temperaments are clashed together. Go on YT and search for videos illustrating different temperaments and listen to differences, "side by side" comparisons etc. And if you're interested in some most extreme musical experience, search for microtonal music in -TETs larger than 12-TET (the common equal temperament). Personally, I can't stand microtonal music other than traditional music from India, as everything sounds false all the time to me. When clashing two different temperaments together, you can get the same "microtonal" quality to resulting music.
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4 hours ago, RAc said:
Also, if I did enjoy looking at slotted heades, something inside me would argue that they would look even better if the slots were perfectly aligned or had some other geometric aesthetic to them such as radial alignment.
Same here
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If there is another instrument with similar timbre and in tune with your box, then you might "not hear yourself" because you're blending in perfectly. Try to play to concertina recording at matching volume to hear what I mean. If you're hearing yourself clearly, then you're missing the rhythm or your concertina is out of tune. It is exactly the same as playing two reeds with the same pitch - you should only hear the increased volume and very little else, unless they are deliberately tuned in musette. When I'm learning a tune via play along to say, a bandoneon recording or Musescore with proper concertina sound font, then not hearing myself is a proof, that I'm doing well.
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6 minutes ago, John Wild said:
Edward Jay is using allen keys on his 3-d printed instruments.
Yes, I know. Alex Holden and Flying Duck Concertinas also made some boxes with Allen screws.
48 minutes ago, wunks said:I'm interested in this because I have a situation where easy access would be desirable. My Wheatstone Jeffries duet now goes down to the cello low F while lacking the G#,F#,E,Eb,D, C# and C. I'd like to be able to make substitutions at this low end of the range to facilitate playing some classical arrangements and dance accompaniments.
If I read it right and those notes are in reversed, descensing order, then you’ll be dissappointed by such substitutions in terms of response, pitch stability and timbre, more and more as you go further down from F. Lowest of those may even not speak at all. It’s because you need increasingly larger chambers as you go further down from C3.
Wanted: Hayden Duet
in Buy & Sell
Posted
Exactly why I designed those:
The thumb is only inserted as deep as the first joint, like in a thimble, and the antler-anvil combination immobilise the thumb only along the bellows axis, leaving all other degrees of freedom unaffected. This works similarly to what Didie explained, but in a completely passive manner.