Woody Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I'm in the waiting list for a new Norman G/D Anglo and as the result of some helpful advice from Stuart Estell have just changed my order from 30b to 36b. So my question is - starting with the 30b Wheatstone layout - what should my other buttons be? Obviously versatility is the objective of the additional keys but probably my main style of playing over the next few years is going to be "English Style". The first is (for me) obviously a G/G drone, but what about the others? I was thinking about a duplicate of the left-hand G row D/E as one to reduce the need to go to the left side for the tune when playing tune + chords. All (polite) answers gratefully received - W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) I was thinking about a duplicate of the left-hand G row D/E as one to reduce the need to go to the left side for the tune when playing tune + chords. Absolutely. I have had this done on my 38 button Jeffries G/D by Colin Dipper with the button to the left of the G/F# button. It turns out to be a tricky job on that instrument because the chamber is pretty small, but Colin managed it by some clever internal rearrangement. It is particularly useful to me because of the slight weakness of my left hand post-stroke, so this mod takes a little of the pressure off it. Definitely go for this one. My Jeffries also has an additional A/G button that is a reverse of the A and G on the middle row. I've found this pretty useful. Edited to add this - My Jeffries has C/G on the "drone" button. This is useful because it gives you a C on the push which is not otherwise present on the keyboard - very useful for chording. On the other hand you lose the G as a drone. Maybe you can put that C on one of your other "spare" buttons. Chris Edited March 8, 2007 by Chris Timson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart estell Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Glad to have been of use, Woody. I have a G/G drone and although I did think about having a C on the push don't really find it necessary. I think I'd rather have to always voice C chords on the pull than swap fingers about when I want a drone (which, the way I play, is a lot!) What I was after with the extra buttons with mine was additional harmonic flexibility, so the four extra buttons in the middle of the instrument have got things like F naturals on the push in two octaves, E flats on the pull, a push C# or two and a couple of pull G#s, I think. I'd know what - and where - they were for certain if my fingers were looking for them! The final additional button on mine is the high-high G push/high A pull at the top of the RH G-row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 Glad to have been of use, Woody. It's definitely the more sensible option but of course I'm now bewildered by the choices available, so I'm not really sure whether to thank you or to call you a trouble maker - W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart estell Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Glad to have been of use, Woody. It's definitely the more sensible option but of course I'm now bewildered by the choices available, so I'm not really sure whether to thank you or to call you a trouble maker - W "Trouble maker" will do just fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjcjones Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 My Jeffries has C/G on the "drone" button. My Crabb's "drone" button has a C on the push and Bb on the pull. I'm still trying to figure out why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 My Jeffries has C/G on the "drone" button.My Crabb's "drone" button has a C on the push and Bb on the pull. I'm still trying to figure out why Well, if the Bb isn't just a cracked reed sounding coincidentally a whole step low ( unlikely in a Crabb), I'd guess that a previous owner wasn't interested in having a "drone", and decided to put that button to a different use. Still a puzzle, though, if it's a C/G instrument, since what you describe duplicates the standard push C and pull Bb, while reversing them would provide a pull C and push Bb, otherwise missing. Makes me wonder what sort of music and arrangements that previous owner played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 27, 2007 Author Share Posted March 27, 2007 OK - I've got a provisional layout - new buttons in bold - all (polite) comments greatly received.... Left Hand Side (Push/Pull) ------------------------------- B/C E/F G#/Bb E/D Eb/F G/D D/F# G/A B/C D/E F/Eb F#/A A/C# D/E F#/G A/B C#/G# G/G Right Hand Side (Pull/Push) -------------------------------- Bb/G# D/E F/Eb Bb/G# C/E E/D F#/G A/B C/D E/G F#/B A/C# B/A C#/D E/F# G/A B/D C#/F# On the left hand side I've gone for the C#/G# button as it seems to crop up in many layouts that I've come across, but I'm not sure of the benefits of this key - explanations or alternatives please? ON the right hand side I considered going for a high A/G on the top of the G row but my thinking is that I'd prefer to get an extra note on the push rather than duplicating the G two buttons down - and I'm a bit torn between whether I should go for the push C# or push C - particularly as the push C would give me the option of a complete push G scale on the right (thanks to Mr. Peters' course for helping me to realize that ) - or I could even have a G/C button giving me complete push and pull G scale on the right hand side. On the other hand the push C# gives versatility on the D scale - W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocd Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 OK - I've got a provisional layout - new buttons in bold - all (polite) comments greatly received.... ... - W Following this thread I can see how the incomprehensible layout of the bandoneon evolved. ocd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Following this thread I can see how the incomprehensible layout of the bandoneon evolved. Woody might wish to claim that his own layout is an example of intelligent design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart estell Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) I've been playing my G/D a lot more lately so can now report accurately what's on it Woody, I have to say I find the high high push G quite handy for really punchy finishing chords. It's of little use for anything else, admittedly. Your left hand layout is the same as mine. The C#/G# key comes in handy occasionally, but the really useful one is the push F for G7 chords, and the Eb for C minor. On the right hand I have a Bb/Ab key as well as an Ab/Bb key - very useful for being able to voice G minor chords. The other additional key on the inside row is F/Eb. Again the push F is the really handy note. (edited to say that in my "notation" here the first note-name is always the one on the push) Edited March 29, 2007 by stuart estell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 6, 2007 Author Share Posted April 6, 2007 (edited) Following this thread I can see how the incomprehensible layout of the bandoneon evolved. Woody might wish to claim that his own layout is an example of intelligent design. More a case of an evolutionary dead-end I expect - though of course if you've got a better suggestion regarding how to choose a layout it would be much appreciated Jim. Edited April 7, 2007 by Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 Just curious: on the lowest note of the left hand D row, why did you choose F#/A (duplicating the pull A on the G row) rather then F#/E, which would give you a pull low E that you don't have elsewhere? Daniel OK - I've got a provisional layout - new buttons in bold - all (polite) comments greatly received.... Left Hand Side (Push/Pull) ------------------------------- B/C E/F G#/Bb E/D Eb/F G/D D/F# G/A B/C D/E F/Eb F#/A A/C# D/E F#/G A/B C#/G# G/G Right Hand Side (Pull/Push) -------------------------------- Bb/G# D/E F/Eb Bb/G# C/E E/D F#/G A/B C/D E/G F#/B A/C# B/A C#/D E/F# G/A B/D C#/F# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 7, 2007 Author Share Posted April 7, 2007 Just curious: on the lowest note of the left hand D row, why did you choose F#/A (duplicating the pull A on the G row) rather then F#/E, which would give you a pull low E that you don't have elsewhere? Daniel This is just reflecting the standard Wheatstone/Lachenal 30b layout - see http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html - which I want to retain. - W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 I think that this is the one reed on the basic 20-button layout where there isn't really a standard. Some concertinas have an A, but I believe that more of them (including my own G/D Lachenal) have an E, as shown on the layout posted here.. I've played both and find the E to be a lot more useful. Just curious: on the lowest note of the left hand D row, why did you choose F#/A (duplicating the pull A on the G row) rather then F#/E, which would give you a pull low E that you don't have elsewhere?This is just reflecting the standard Wheatstone/Lachenal 30b layout - see http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html - which I want to retain. - W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 7, 2007 Author Share Posted April 7, 2007 I think that this is the one reed on the basic 20-button layout where there isn't really a standard. Some concertinas have an A, but I believe that more of them (including my own G/D Lachenal) have an E, as shown on the layout posted here.. I've played both and find the E to be a lot more useful. Just curious: on the lowest note of the left hand D row, why did you choose F#/A (duplicating the pull A on the G row) rather then F#/E, which would give you a pull low E that you don't have elsewhere?This is just reflecting the standard Wheatstone/Lachenal 30b layout - see http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html - which I want to retain. - W Hmmm - interesting - I'll have a look further at this as your suggestion mimics the layout of my Rochelle which would be useful. Thanks Daniel - W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart estell Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I think that this is the one reed on the basic 20-button layout where there isn't really a standard. Some concertinas have an A, but I believe that more of them (including my own G/D Lachenal) have an E, as shown on the layout posted here.. I've played both and find the E to be a lot more useful. Just curious: on the lowest note of the left hand D row, why did you choose F#/A (duplicating the pull A on the G row) rather then F#/E, which would give you a pull low E that you don't have elsewhere?This is just reflecting the standard Wheatstone/Lachenal 30b layout - see http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html - which I want to retain. - W Hmmm - interesting - I'll have a look further at this as your suggestion mimics the layout of my Rochelle which would be useful. Thanks Daniel - W Mine has a pull E down there - very useful it is too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 Well thanks very much to everybody that posted advice - it's very much appreciated and my keyboard layout is significantly different than that I first had in mind. FWIW this is my final layout..... Left side (push/pull) --------------------- B/C E/F G#/Bb E/D Eb/F G/D D/F# G/A B/C D/E F/Eb F#/E A/C# D/E F#/G A/B C/G# G drone Right Side (pull/push) ---------------------- Bb/G# D/E F/Eb Bb/G# C/E E/D F#/G A/B C/D E/G F#/B G/C B/A C#/D E/F# G/A B/D C#/F# On the left hand side I've gone for the low E (thanks Daniel), the F/Eb button and the C/G#. With the C/G# button, the G# along with the pull Eb means that this layout gives you pulled Major and Minor Chords for every note. The choice of the push note was more difficult but in the end I opted for C as with the other buttons it gives me pushed major & minor chords - or at least neutral (1st+5th) chords - for the following roots... C, D, E, F, G, G#, A, B ...with reasonable fingerings. Once I get the instrument I'll no doubt wish I'd gone for another layout but at least I've made a decision... ....I think - W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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