System for Violin/Harp Accompaniment

[rth97601]

Well folks, I'm not an Anglo player, and I need to make some new decisions ...

 

See, a couple of years ago, I excitedly bought (and sort of repaired) a cheap Anglo, with loads of support from folk here on Cnet. Unfortunately, it didn't stick--not for lack of interest per se, or the quality of the instrument, but because I could just never get my head 'round the push-pull aspect. I should have known--I have the same problem with harmonicas. So it goes ... I still play around with it, but mostly I use it to entertain my young son, and not for "serious" playing ...

 

I haven't quite shaken the concertina bug, however, and I'm now looking to get an English-style box. I would primarily be accompanying my wife, who plays violin and harp, on Church/Folk/Trad. stuff, with a slight emphasis on Scottish/English tunes and ballads (she started off on Scottish-style fiddle and folk harp). I'm not exactly flush, so it's either a CC Elise Hayden Duet, or a Jack/Jackie English. I'm leaning toward the Elise, since it seems more versatile, but honestly it's just a shot in the dark. I've read the various pros/cons of each, but it hasn't gotten me very far.

 

Given the specific intentions here, what do you all think?

[Larry Stout]

I play EC (and a little Crane, but no Hayden) so I've identified my biases. One disadvantage to the duet route (Elise, my Crane) is that the upgrade path is hard to find. There are no vintage Haydens and there aren't many being custom made. There are no new Maccans and Cranes that I'm aware of. For an EC you can start with a Jackie or Jack and then have several levels of upgrade before you run out of possible instruments.

[Geoff Wooff]

Larry has a good point here.

I would also suggest that you think about which Keys you will need for your accompaniments. I recall that the Elise is somewhat limited in certain Key signatures.

Many people today might not see the EC as an accompaniment instrument but plenty of people use them for song backing and given the points that Larry makes regarding availability of up-grade models I would also put my two cents behind the going for an EC system.

 

Good luck with your choices,

Geoff.

[Anglo-Irishman]

I recall that the Elise is somewhat limited in certain Key signatures.

 

According to Wim Wakker's homepage, the Elise has all the naturals plus Bb, F# and C#. So you can deal with the key signatures for F, C, G and D major and their relative minors and modal scales.

 

C, G and D are frequent keys with string players, but violinists and fiddlers also like A major for some tunes, and you wouldn't be able to accompany that (though you could accompany A Dorian mode). In my experience, fiddlers (and guitarists) tend to avoid flat keys like F major, so you wouldn't use that so much.

 

For what it's worth - hope this helps in your decision!

 

Cheers,

John

[Dirge]

I play EC (and a little Crane, but no Hayden) so I've identified my biases. One disadvantage to the duet route (Elise, my Crane) is that the upgrade path is hard to find. There are no vintage Haydens and there aren't many being custom made. There are no new Maccans and Cranes that I'm aware of. For an EC you can start with a Jackie or Jack and then have several levels of upgrade before you run out of possible instruments.

 

Larry says 'no vintage Haydens' but then fails to explain further. There are plenty of high quality vintage Maccans available,in all sizes, a few above average Cranes but not many, and perhaps the same number of Jeffries duets. All these are the bargains of the concertina world at the moment but probably still a lot more than you want to pay. But the vast majority of Cnet members aren't after 'new' when it comes to upgrading. 'New' is a foreign concept to most duet players, certainly.

 

This topic gets done to death; but the elise will be your best choice IF you like the sound and feel and you could live with it long term without changing it; otherwise it's buying one new at great expense or learning another system from scratch when you want to advance to a better/bigger instrument. Painting yourself into a corner if you ask me, but for what you describe it might just make sense; you don't want to spend a lot, you don't intend to invest hours in it (fair?), as an instrument that you can pick up quickly and play chords, it's probably what you need. You could take the English route (Jack Jackie) on the principle that at least you keep more options for the future open, but it probably takes more getting going on.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Dirge

[rth97601]

I know it gets done to death, and I'm sorry for dragging it out again--it's just the peculiarity of the application that brings it up.

 

My wife has certainly noticed the limitations of the Elise (in terms of available keys), but doesn't think it's much more than an inconvenience, given what she's thinking (and she does all the thinking there, since she's a semi-pro church musician, and does a fair bit of her own arranging/scoring).

 

I probably will spend quite a lot of time with it, though I've no pretensions to potential virtuosity ... which is part of the reason for the question.

 

I know that the Elise will more or less work for this right out of the box, which is why it's tempting, despite its drawbacks. How much will I have to bend over backwards to make the EC a good fit, in terms of switching relatively easily between chord/melody? I know it can be done, as folks here have pointed out, but if I'll need years of work to do it, then I might have to take the easy way out.

 

Either way, the CC instruments are relatively inexpensive and hold their value well, so if one doesn't work I can sell it and try the other.

 

Oh, and while I'm rambling ... which voicing would be more appropriate here for the EC? Jack, or Jackie?

[inventor]

I am pleased to say that Button Box has recently completed their first production model, hybrid (accordion reeded) Hayden concertina. 54 buttons 7" across the flats. Don't ask me about the price, ask them.

They make very good light weight Anglo and English hybrids at reasonable prices. This model should sit nicely between the "Elise" and the 65 Button Wakker Hayden Duet (real concertina reeds).

Inventor.

[JimLucas]

...which voicing would be more appropriate here for the EC? Jack, or Jackie?

I think that would be up to you... or perhaps your wife. You two should be considering just what sorts of accompaniments you hope to be playing. The Jack, Jackie, and Elise are all of limited range, so it's not just a matter of how many keys you can play chords in, but what inversions are available and in what octaves.

 

The Jack and Jackie each span 2½ octaves in all. If you want some "bass" in your chords (or other accompaniment), the Jack seems the best of the three, since it bottoms out a fourth below the Elise and a full octave below the Jackie. On the other hand, the Jack lacks the top octave of the other two, which you might want for playing an upper harmony line.

 

The Elise has the widest total range of the three, but it's not chromatic throughout its entire range, which the Jack and Jackie are. In fact, its keyboard layout shows that it's completely missing both Eb/D# and Ab/G#. Won't be playing in the keys of A, E, Bb, Eb, etc.? Fair enough. But what about the B7 chord used with many E-minor tunes and E7 with A-minor?

 

How much will I have to bend over backwards to make the EC a good fit, in terms of switching relatively easily between chord/melody? I know it can be done, as folks here have pointed out, but if I'll need years of work to do it....

Years? No. I won't claim that it will be as easy for you as it was for me, but it took me only days before I was doing a bit of each. If you can't easily do both, then you probably won't be able to do either, but in that case the English wouldn't be for you. And while vamping chords simultaneously with playing melody is "almost impossible" on the English, there are other ways of mixing harmonies (including chords) with melody that are both effective and relatively easy.

[Geoff Wooff]

I am pleased to say that Button Box has recently completed their first production model, hybrid (accordion reeded) Hayden concertina. 54 buttons 7" across the flats. Don't ask me about the price, ask them.

They make very good light weight Anglo and English hybrids at reasonable prices. This model should sit nicely between the "Elise" and the 65 Button Wakker Hayden Duet (real concertina reeds).

Inventor.

 

 

 

Is it not also the case that Wim Wakker is developing a mid range (priced) Hayden too ?

 

Geoff.

[Robin Madge]

A friend of mine uses a treble Wheastone to accompany his wife on harp and I have found that my G/D Anglo also sounds fine with the harp. It is more a case of how you split up the tune and harmony lines pitch wise that exactly what instrument you use.

 

Robin Madge

[inventor]

I often hear of things in the planning stages that never come to fruition soon. Then suddenly appear years later.

I hope Wim will be making a mid-priced hybrid soon; it would be especially nice if it could be a 44 button 6.25" build it yourself model.

I didn't hear about the Button Box 54 Button instrument directly, a "little bird" told me! It should be on display at the BB concertina weekend in April.

Inventor.

[rth97601]

Thank you all for your input on this ... the decision is made.

 

After looking through all the advice here, and sitting down with my wife (and some fingering charts), I've gone and purchased a "Jackie" through the C-net Buy/Sell forum.

 

We've been talking about this for months, so it's nice to see it come together ... of course, now the burden is entirely on me, as I have to actually learn to play it ...