Chinese Concertina

[jggunn]

My ten year old grandaughter is showing an interest in the English concertina. Would one of these $114 Chinese 30 button instruments be too ridiculous for a starter? Has anyone actually used one? Or should I go for the Jackie for a little more than twice the money? Thanks.

[m3838]

My ten year old grandaughter is showing an interest in the English concertina. Would one of these $114 Chinese 30 button instruments be too ridiculous for a starter? Has anyone actually used one? Or should I go for the Jackie for a little more than twice the money? Thanks.

 

You know, one thing is to entertain yourself, and another is to cripple your young one.

When I was looking for a piano for my daughter, we had many optons, from excellent up-right Stainway for $600 (used) up to whatever.

I was looking for the sound. Unfortunately, the optimal sound had full Yamaha upright for $4000. I would have never spent so much on myself. Do your child a favour and buy her Morse, either trebble or baritone. She'll thank you later.

Jackie and Jack are only good for adults, who can temporarily tolerate low quality. Kids don't give a damn, they live now!

I'm playing with my friend's Jack and I can say, it's a good piece of machinery for $300, but it can NOT do more than it CAN, and the sound is uneven and overall very compromised. No complaints, you get what you pay for, and in case of Jack you get a bit more, but still not good enough. The main problem is the quality of sound. Another is reed response. And yet another is the range.

It's a compromise, keep your kid out of it, give her the best you can do, no less.

[stuart estell]

That said, the sums of money involved, even for a Morse, can be very daunting to start with.

 

If because of budgetary concerns you're looking for a small initial outlay and only wanting to make a choice between the cheapest of Chinese instruments and the Jackie, the general consensus seems to be that it's much better to opt for the Jackie - you should certainly get a much higher level of quality control. I've not played one myself but there are a good few people around these parts who have, and do - no doubt they'll be along shortly and will be able to give you a more detailed judgment than I can

Edited November 15, 2006 by stuart estell

[Missing Song]

When I was looking for a piano for my daughter, we had many optons, from excellent up-right Stainway for $600 (used) up to whatever.

I was looking for the sound. Unfortunately, the optimal sound had full Yamaha upright for $4000.

 

I don't mean to start something here but before I first posted I watched this board for ages and chose to post because I felt you were all quite inclusive. Your child is very fortunate that you could afford such a great instrument. I would be just glad to hear that someone is willing to spend any amount of money on an instrument for a child. It's possible that it is a stretch to buy a Jackie in this circumstance (if so I know how the poster feels).

 

My feeling as a parent is that I want my kids to taste as many instruments as possible and they have, with guitars, drum kits, clarinets, whistles, recorders, piano accordian, concertina, keyboard and more in our home. With the best will in the world though even a careful child cannot truly appreciate the cost of replacing a damaged valuable instrument. I'd say go for the best you can manage with realistic expectations. If a child shows aptitude then by all means sell your collection of Beano magazines or Rupert the Bear annuals and buy something better. All to often though, children show interest and then move on to the next new thing. I also think making a child feel responsible for a fine instrument before they feel committed takes all the fun away from making the music (or the noise!).

 

My eldest son settled on guitar at around 15 and now has a lovely instrument, which he deserves for sticking at it. My second son decided music wasn't for him, he has earned a great computer to create his beloved graphics with. My 12 year old daughter has been playing a cheap clarinet for 2 years, and loves it, she wasn't so keen on guitar, her guitar has been put away for our youngest daughter, who at 2 already loves to strum and bang a drum . The 12 year old is very soon to receive a better instrument because she can now do it justice and because she's proved she can care for an instrument.

 

You know, one thing is to entertain yourself, and another is to cripple your young one.

...It's a compromise, keep your kid out of it, give her the best you can do, no less.

 

I'm not sure I agree and while I understand your passion for music I do feel that suggesting starter instruments 'cripple' is an extreme, if passionate, view. I think we only compromise our children's musicality by either not encouraging a musical atmosphere at home or by putting on too much pressure to succeed.

[Theo]

Here's interesting aside on the "Chinese or Jackie?" question.

 

Hobgoblin are now offering a 30 key Scarlatti branded English Concertina that from the pictures looks very much like the Jackie.

 

One of these was brought in for minor repairs yesterday. Apart from the Scarlatti badge it is identical to the Jackie: size, button size and layout, action reeds everything. I hope that the Chinese makers of the Jackie have not done the dirty on Wim and Concertina Connection.

[m3838]

Here's interesting aside on the "Chinese or Jackie?" question.

 

Hobgoblin are now offering a 30 key Scarlatti branded English Concertina that from the pictures looks very much like the Jackie.

 

One of these was brought in for minor repairs yesterday. Apart from the Scarlatti badge it is identical to the Jackie: size, button size and layout, action reeds everything. I hope that the Chinese makers of the Jackie have not done the dirty on Wim and Concertina Connection.

 

No question they have.

Let it be a reminder to all who is excited about outsourcing.

I hope they will do it to VW, Ford and Boing. May be it will prompt our governments to wake up.

[jggunn]

Thanks "missing song" and everyone else who commented. Price was never really the issue -- I was only concerned about whether the 10 year old interest would lead to real commitment. If it did, I would give her my medium quality Lachenal which I still use a great deal despite having better instruments. I think I will probably go with the Jackie and if she doesn't use, I can take it camping. I have been trying to get all four grandchilden into music, but among the older the one with the most ability (16) is not interested. Woe. but after all I did not start until I was nearly 50.

[Woody]

...I hope that the Chinese makers of the Jackie have not done the dirty on Wim and Concertina Connection.

No question they have.

Whilst this might be the case, perhaps some caution about what you say might be appropriate until you are in full posession of the facts. With a statement like "No question they have" you may be leaving yourself open to legal action by the companies involved.

 

Let it be a reminder to all who is excited about outsourcing.

I hope they will do it to VW, Ford and Boing. May be it will prompt our governments to wake up.

Wake up to the fact that businesses in other countries might behave in the same way as businesses in Western countries?

[Dana Johnson]

-- I was only concerned about whether the 10 year old interest would lead to real commitment. If it did, I would give her my medium quality Lachenal which I still use a great deal despite having better instruments.

I tend to be more in agreement with m3838 regarding children and quality. I don't feel like it is necessary to get the best instrument possible as a starter instrument, but a poor instrument can easily turn a kid off to that instrument or music entirely when they discover how unrewarding it can be. Guitars and clarinets are not good comparisons. Even really cheap guitars are remarkably better made these days than they were 20 years ago, and you can get a good playable reasonable sounding one for little more than a hundred bucks. As long as it is fitted with the right reed and isn't actually broken or in need of new pads, a cheap mass produced clarinet is vastly closer in quality to an excellent instrument than the case of either of the cheap instruments you were looking at is to even your lachenal.

 

If there is any concern about interest or commitment, why don't you loan your lachenal wit the proviso that if she really likes playing it it's hers. After all you say you do have better instruments. That you continue to play the lachenal indicates that it is enjoyable to play, which is the main criteria for a starter instrument. I got my first banjo at 11 and it opened up the world of music to me for which I feel in the greatest debt to Pete Seeger and my first banjo teacher. To get a concertina remotely similar in quality to the cheap guitars and clarinets available today, you really can't go below the Morse or your Lachenal. I would never give a child a Jacky and feel I'd done them a favor. A truly driven child would take it and get all they could out of it, but an entry into the world of music, it is not.

Dana

[m3838]

...I hope that the Chinese makers of the Jackie have not done the dirty on Wim and Concertina Connection.

No question they have.

Whilst this might be the case, perhaps some caution about what you say might be appropriate until you are in full posession of the facts. With a statement like "No question they have" you may be leaving yourself open to legal action by the companies involved.

 

Let it be a reminder to all who is excited about outsourcing.

I hope they will do it to VW, Ford and Boing. May be it will prompt our governments to wake up.

Wake up to the fact that businesses in other countries might behave in the same way as businesses in Western countries?

 

Nice try, but they don't. There are two interwoven processes: One: outsource simple mechanical work to where labor is cheaper and force them to do a good work. And Two: the reason labor is cheaper in those coutries is less developed social intfrastructure, which makes it impossible to acheave high quality.

Therefore we have very cheap products coming from overseas, with very poor quality, we get used to it and while still retain buying abilities (not for long), we get to the idea of discarding things quickly, so the high quality and longevity becomes not important. In the meanwhile we outsourse more and more challenging work, destroying our own infrustructure and make it impossible to 'not' outsource. Soon our buying ability will drop and outsourcing will make no sence anymore, but the countries we outsource to are dependant on us. Our economy will suffer, their will crush. While we'll be the guilty again, we will not posess any abilty to buy nice concertinas anymore, and our wonderful concertina makers will "kiss the door knob" as we poetically say in Russia.

 

As for legal action by Chinese Politburo, which wholly depends on patent piracy for it's survival, I'd like to see it.

I see no difference between the Jack that I have now on loan and the instrument on Hobgoblin's page.

Same!

I'm sure Wim Wakker will look into it and will have no choice, but either stop dealing with the company, or just let it go. And I totally understand the chinese, they are not so priviledged, and have to make dough.

Probably some famous Western naivetey from Wim's part, allowing chinese do the final assembly and tuning.

No Russian, Korean, Vietnamese or Check would have done this. You have to leave key processes in your posession. Otherwise we will repeat that fiasco, when some German Company build a monorail in China.

When Chinese said they are happy and want to build another one, much longer, Germans were very disappointed, when found that Chinese are going to do it on their own, without the German help.

Good goings! Let's hope the Western economic culture is much higher and will be needed.

And I have nothing against outsourcing to Sweden or Netherlands, if they can do better job. I'd pay for it.

[Theo]

I'm sure Wim Wakker will look into it and will have no choice,

 

Wim has been in touch with me off-list and I've given as much details as I can. Up to him now. I hope he gets it sorted.

[Geofflowes]

Dear Iqqunn,I'm a beginner so my reply is going to be very basic.I bought a cheapo 30b chinese.I don't like it.If I sell it I would be lucky to get 1/3 of what I paid.I then bought a 20b Lachenal in good order. I like it,I pick it up almost every day.If I decide to sell I believe I would get at least what I paid and maybe more. Regards Geoff.

[wim wakker]

Regarding the Hobgoblin concertina Theo referred to, it is NOT a Jackie, and is not produced by ‘our’ factory. The Jackie/Jack/Rochelle are developed by me, and are produced under contract by ‘our’ manufacturer in China exclusively for us.

Based on the information I have so far, I think that Hobgoblin actually sent a Jackie to (another) producer in China to have it copied…I guess they are not able to develop their own instrument. They actually are selling a Chinese clone of a Chinese instrument….

At this moment there is an instrument on its way to us for a more detailed inspection, but from the information I have so far, the instrument probably will develop a few problems after being played for while…that’s why we have certain parts made in Germany instead of the Chinese counterparts… no, I won’t tell Hobgoblin which parts. I hope they have a good customers service.

 

Trade between China and the western world is not as primitive and brutal as m3838 likes to believe.. . Any (free reed) manufacturer in China or the western world will think twice before violating a contract. Especially in a small and specialized world as ours. There are several trade organizations with mandatory membership that can make life very difficult for parties that do not play by the rules.

China plays a major role in the production of free reed instruments in general. A large percentage of Italian, German and other ‘European and American’ free reed instrument parts are actually produced in China and Korea, at different quality levels, some equal to European standards, and some at very low standards.. they also have an enormous internal market of millions of accordionists (there are more piano accordion payers in china than all free reed players of the rest of the world combined) that play on locally produced instruments. Some of them terrible, and some at professional level. They also have many universities/conservatories that offer a major in accordion at B.A., M.M. and D.M.A. level. The Chinese are no ‘idiots’ when it comes to free reed instruments.

 

 

 

Re: Jackie/music education:

 

I read that some people find the Jackie not suitable for (elementary level) music education…

Strange, because the Jackie and Jack were developed for the (state) music education system in the Netherlands, for which I also wrote the music elementary/high school curriculum and the B.M.-concertina program. The Jackie meets all requirements, both musical and technical up to the grade 1 level (about 3 years), and has now also been adopted by music education institutes, private professional and amateur teachers in other European and Scandinavian countries, Great Britain, Ireland (the Rochelle only), USA and Canada.

I think these music professionals will disagree with you. In fact, the Jackie is very popular in music education (we passed the 1000+ instruments a long time ago).

The Jackie is comparable to a beginners flute, oboe, clarinet, that will teach both music and technical skills at elementary level and higher. I’ve seen many Jackie players outplay aeola players…In my own experience, I’ve played much of the concertina concert repertoire (Cohn concerto, pieces by Regondi, etc.) on the Jackie just to try it out.

 

It does not sound as nice as a higher class instrument, but if you would check the music education literature, you’ll find lot’s of research showing no educational benefits from higher class musical instruments. In fact, children hear/experience instruments differently than adults. It is not uncommon for children to prefer the sound/feel/responds of a lower class instrument. There are many documented examples, ranging from violinists that prefer a cheap instrument over the loaned amati, or the many pianists that prefer the basic upright over the concert grand… Learning to play a musical instrument is about developing yourself.. the actual instrument plays a small role in the process.

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection v.o.f.

[Frank Edgley]

As A Canadian, I am curious as to which Canadian musical institutes are teaching concertina---or are these Canadian individual instructors not affiliated with a music institute?

[m3838]

Regarding the Hobgoblin concertina Theo referred to, it is NOT a Jackie, and is not produced by ‘our’ factory. The Jackie/Jack/Rochelle are developed by me, and are produced under contract by ‘our’ manufacturer in China exclusively for us.

 

Trade between China and the western world is not as primitive and brutal as m3838 likes to believe.. .

 

 

Re: Jackie/music education:

 

I read that some people find the Jackie not suitable for (elementary level) music education…

Strange,

 

I'm stunned.

So it's the Hobgobling that features pirate's outfit. Incredible!

I'm glad 'your' manufacturer plays by the rules.

No, I don't "like" to believe that Chinese don't trade by Western standards, I know for sure they don't.

There is much a westerner wouldn't understand or would prefer not to notice or attribute it to local customs.

Like bribes, that are widely accepted and are not considered a "bribe". Or family relations, or "I do it for you, and you do it for me" custom. I recently aquired large party of steroid based ointment from a friend of a friend in China. Stricktly by prescription, of course, and only 1 at a time per person. Everybody accepted some gifts openly, including customs. In Russia situation is the same, and I heard in Mexico too. In Georgia rules change by the wim of the players and Police mainly makes sure the players are happy.

I wan't be surprised if that "other" manufacturer has family ties with "yours". But it's of no importance.

What's important is that Jackie is obviously a good beginner's instrument and Jack is OK too, although a bit slow and needs some valves adjustments for quiet playing. I'll experiment with leather baffles too.

You didn't read opinions about Jackie correctly. The opinion of many people was that a child, that is interested in Concertina, should be given better instrument from the start. Not a Suttner, but a Morse or middle range Lachenal. Jackie may be good for schools, that have low funds, but a parent should be able to come up with the best option for the child.

P.S.

I would be very interested to know, which institutions teach concertina in the US.

[wim wakker]

Concertina is not part of the music educational system in Canada and the US.. the teachers that use the Jackie and Jack are private teachers.

 

No, I don't "like" to believe that Chinese don't trade by Western standards, I know for sure they don't.

There is much a westerner wouldn't understand or would prefer not to notice or attribute it to local customs.

 

I don’t know about that… I guess there might be a difference between international trade and local ‘relationships’. All I can say is that I’ve been working with our Chinese factory for over 3 years, and I find them trustworthy, prompt, and willing to meet quality requirements… In my experience this is very rare with businesses in the western world.

 

 

What's important is that Jackie is obviously a good beginner's instrument and Jack is OK too, although a bit slow and needs some valves adjustments for quiet playing. I'll experiment with leather baffles too.

 

Leather baffles will only cut the upper harmonics. Baritone concertinas are always slower than trebles, including high end instruments with traditional reeds. The reason is the chamber air volume and bellows capacity. Large reeds need a big air reservoir to start the swing cycle. If the chamber compression drops because the air flow needed by the reed is larger than the air supply to the chamber, the reed will have problems starting the cycle and maintaining sufficient momentum to compensate the reed energy lost. In other words… there is nothing you can do about it, except increasing the chamber volume (e.g. folded chambers).

 

The opinion of many people was that a child, that is interested in Concertina, should be given better instrument from the start.

 

Like I said, as far as educational results are concerned, research has shown the opposite…

 

Jackie may be good for schools, that have low funds, but a parent should be able to come up with the best option for the child.

 

In Europe students have to buy their own instruments, they are not supplied by schools. They just give a list of requirements.

[asdormire]

Folks may want to read my recent post "A sad story" as it pertains to the topic, but I didn't want to hijack this thread.

 

Alan

[m3838]

/Leather baffles will only cut the upper harmonics.../

 

I realise that.

I meant to try to mellow the tone somewhat, it is a bit harsh to me.

I know the big reeds, esp. with the weight at their tips, are slow, plus the Jack is not the high end instrument.

So far I'm more concerned with slow pieces, like Chopin's Prelude in Cmin. Which I have to transpose an octave higher and take care of the second part, working around the short range of the instrument.

But since I grabbed your attention, do you think it's possible to order the set of reedplates with reeds sounding in one direction? Possible tuning is octave or tremolo. So the instrument will sound only on the pull, with automatic valve opening on the push?

I was thinking of ordering a Jackie and a set of spare bellows, Dremmeling the reed rivets off and replacing the reeds myself, but would rather order professional work and only construct the air valve.