Questions About Reeds And Prices

[Daniel Hersh]

I've been wondering about some things for a while, so I thought I'd put them out here as questions...

 

What's the difference between what's called an accordion reed and what's called a concertina reed? It's my impression that "concertina" reeds are typically built by concertina makers for use in their own instruments while "accordion" reeds often come from a reed-making specialist in Italy. But is there an intrinsic difference in the way they're designed and/or built? And where do German concertina reeds, especially the long-plate type where there are multiple reeds on one plate, fit into the picture? Are they more like an "accordion" or a "concertina" reed?

 

And this leads to my next question: It's my impression that "concertina" reeds are much more expensive than even hand-made "accordion" reeds. If so, is this because of the economies of scale used by the accordion reed-making specialist? And if that's the case, could the price of concertina-style reeds (and "concertina"-reeded concertinas) be brought down if someone applied those methods to the manufacture of concertina reeds?

 

Daniel

[Richard Morse]

Answer #1, at least in IMHO:

 

The principle behind accordion and concertinas is the same though the ways in which each is designed/constructed it is different due to the ease of incorporating the reeds into the instruments and to optimize the response and tonal character of the reeds.

 

Reeds need to oscillate - which is hard to do when holding it in your fingers and blowing air past it. So a frame is created and a vent (slot or hole just a whisker larger than the working part of the reed) for which the reed is secured against. Air is now directed such that it must push past the reed, and the reed bends into the vent in such a manner as to allow the air to pass.

 

That is the tricky part. If the sides of the vent are close to the reed and is deep enough, the reed never clears to the other side of the vent. It just sits there bent against the air pressure and has no reason to oscillate. Only when the reed can dump the air can the springiness of the reed overcome the abrupt differential in pressure to swing back.

 

Another part of the equation is that the reed really needs help to start promptly and to continue to oscillate (particularly under low pressures). Setting the reed just above the vent allows the various air forces (pressure, Venturi, Bernoulli, Coanda) to start the reed moving into the vent, and serves to make the "working" part of the reed all on one side (the downwind side) of its neutral point (making it a more efficient driver system).

 

That's what accordion and concertina reeds have in common: a springy ribbon of material set just above a tight fitting vent aperture in a reed plate. If this plate were very thin, the reed would dump its air easily and swing back and you'd have a quiet tone. Push a lot of air past it and you would have only a very marginally louder sound. Much of the volume of the reed comes from how far it swings, and it doesn't have to swing very far to dump a lot of air with a thin plate.

 

So we make the plate thicker so the reed has to be stressed more before it can dump its air load and we get a louder sound... BUT - because it won't begin to sound until it dumps, it will be unable to play softly! Less pressure will not allow the reed to swing far enough to dump.

 

There are several ways a reed and plate can be designed such that a reed can pass air when under low pressure (minimal swing and yet can dump) to high pressure (maximal swing and then dumping). Concertinas have taken the approach of having a "medium" thick reedplate which has a tapered vent such that the side next to the reed at rest has tight tolerances to the reed (which helps make it an efficient) and the opposite side has significantly larger tolerances: the vent is splayed. And it is splayed in such a way that under low pressures the reed need not clear the plate in order to dump enough air to start oscillating - and yet due to air film propensities at speed - allow the reed to swing greatly as well.

 

The exact undercut taper varies depending on the size and pitch of the reed. The taper can be a straight bevel, a doubled bevel, curved, etc. Each, and the amount of each, will affect the response of the reed.

 

But the reed plate is too thin for such great excursions! That is why concertina reedplates are set INTO the reedpan. The corresponding slots in the reed pan are actually EXTENSIONS of the reedplate vents. Little wonder that Jeffries are so much louder than other concertinas - its reedpan is considerably thicker!

 

Accordion reed assemblies have taken another route to accommodate this low/high air passage issue. Their vent is plumb and reeds taper severely. Rather than rectangular (as seen from the "top") as concertina reeds are prone to be (though most concertina reeds have a very slight taper to make them easier to install to close tolerances), accordion reeds are tapered more like long trapezoids, and as such when they swing into the vent space, the further they go, the more clearance occurs between the sides of the reed (and tip too of course) and the vent walls. The overall effect is similar to a concertina reed assembly. Though an accordion's reedplate is considerably thicker that a concertina's reedplate as there is no reedpan extension in accordion constructions (discounting flutinas which use concertina reeds/reedpan design/construction).

 

That is the intrinsic difference: how concertina and accordion reeds are designed/constructed to dump air. Other differences abound (multiple reeds/vents in a single plate, the reed shape/profile/size, springiness, material, etc. will all impart various character to the response and sound; yet (IMHO) are not definitive and can be applied to both types of reeds. Still, certain propensities have evolved: concertina reeds tend to be more slender than accordion reeds, and German reeds tend to be more similar to concertina reeds (less taper, more slender) than to Italian reeds.

 

Having "ganged" plates (more than one reed per reedplate, typically two for accordions, and 10-20 for bandoneons and such) was probably just a manufacturing expedient originally which has been refined for certain tonal characteristics (mainly by bandoneons, early chemnizters, some bayans, etc.).

 

Disclaimer: The aboves are only my views on this issue, a truncated accumulation of my years of serious "dabbling" and of discussions with several world-class reed makers.

[Richard Morse]

Answer #2, also in IMHO:

 

I believe that economy of scale is largely responsible for the high price of concertina reed assemblies (meaning the reed and plate, not to confuse the issue as relegating it solely to the reed tongue) - though in equal production, concertina reed assemblies would still be more pricey as they are more difficult to make than are accordion reed assemblies. While the reed making process is similar, the reedplate design is so different between the two that the accordion process of making them cannot be applied to make concertina reedplates.

 

Unfortunately I don't have any firm costing of concertina reeds as those that make them don't take fully into account the amortization of their machinery - and yet sell them for $10 to $30 each (undervalued!) which translates into 25-40% the cost of the entire instrument. Compare that to accordion reeds which cost less than $1/reed to about $3 for very decent ones to $6+ for great ones. Putting that into perspective translates that reeds are about 20% the cost of great hand-made, limited-run accordions like Castagnari's (with very good reeds).

 

And then there's mass-produced accordions like Hohner's good Bravo line of PA's which retails about $1200 has about 1000 reeds, and their better Amica line which retails around $2500 with the same number of reeds seems to equate that the reeds are twice as costly. Figuring backwards that half of that is labor and maybe half of the residual is the value of the reeds puts the retail of the reeds at about 50 cents/reed. Certainly near the low end, but hey - they make them by the gazillions. Turns out to be about 25% the cost of the instrument.

 

Interesting percentage breakdowns. It seems that mass production certainly enables the cost to get way down. Hand-madeness (such as the Castagnari carcases) pushes the overall box price up which makes their reed proportion smaller - as they're mass produced - though not by itself inexpensive). As a gut-shot number, I would imagine that if mass production were to lower concertina reeds to be only - say 10% more expensive than comparable accordion reeds - then the typical cost of a new high quality vintage type English concertina would be reduced by about $1300 and an anlgo by $1000!

[Daniel Hersh]

Thanks! This is all really helpful. More questions, then: where does the "tone chamber" used on some high-end accordions fit into this? Is that similar to the reed pan slot used on a concertina? And what about the hybrid concertinas that use accordion reeds--do they use a reed pan slot, or is it not needed due to the construction of the accordion reed?

 

Daniel

 

(..)

 

But the reed plate is too thin for such great excursions! That is why concertina reedplates are set INTO the reedpan. The corresponding slots in the reed pan are actually EXTENSIONS of the reedplate vents. Little wonder that Jeffries are so much louder than other concertinas - its reedpan is considerably thicker!

 

Accordion reed assemblies have taken another route to accommodate this low/high air passage issue. Their vent is plumb and reeds taper severely. Rather than rectangular (as seen from the "top") as concertina reeds are prone to be (though most concertina reeds have a very slight taper to make them easier to install to close tolerances), accordion reeds are tapered more like long trapezoids, and as such when they swing into the vent space, the further they go, the more clearance occurs between the sides of the reed (and tip too of course) and the vent walls. The overall effect is similar to a concertina reed assembly. Though an accordion's reedplate is considerably thicker that a concertina's reedplate as there is no reedpan extension in accordion constructions (discounting flutinas which use concertina reeds/reedpan design/construction).

 

(..)

Edited March 19, 2006 by Daniel Hersh

[Richard Morse]

More questions, then: where does the "tone chamber" used on some high-end accordions fit into this? Is that similar to the reed pan slot used on a concertina?

No. An accordion "tone chamber" is simply an additional "box" (actually a very elongated rectangle) onto which the reedbank(s) are secured, and has one side open to the action/grille area. Picture a typical setup where the typical reedbank is about 1" wide and 12" long with reeds on both sides and the airholes on the "bottom" of the bank. The bank is installed with the bottom secured to the "soundboard" or "palletboard" (concertinas have pads, accordions have pallets) such that those holes align with holes in the soundboard which the pallets (which are at the end of the action arms...).

 

When having a tone chamber, there is a box (about the size of the reedbank) secured to the soundboard that is completely open to the action/grille are and sticks INTO the accordion. There are holes in the tone chamber corresponding to the reedbank(s) which are installed onto it. In order to stop these holes the action for this area is bent over so that the pallets stick into the tone chamber.

 

Most tone chambered accordions have only a single bank of reeds "in" the tone chamber and almost always are installed perpedicularly to the rest of the reedbanks. The additional length of soundpath and bouncing around and frequency absorbing that goes on because of this setup makes for a smoother and more mellow sound. Where a concertina's reedpan is to primarily enable the reeds to sound louder, an accordion's tone chamber effects the *tone* of the reeds (as well as making it a bit quieter).

And what about the hybrid concertinas that use accordion reeds--do they use a reed pan slot, or is it not needed due to the construction of the accordion reed?

The don't need a reedpan slot as the accordion reedplates are designed to be adequately thick enough by themselves. In fact they are almost twice as thick as typical concertina reedplates (some people call them reed "shoes") are and close to the thickness of a concertina's reedpan (which's thickness includes the reedplates).

Here's a photo of an accordion with two banks in a

tone chamber Googled from Allodi Accordions Limited

 

[Nigel]

Thanks Richard for your wonderful replies. I found it fascinating to read such in-depth answers from an expert concertina maker. If anyone should question the high price of concertinas, I will refer them to your posts. I should imagine they will become more humble, as I have, and look with more wonder at the amazingly complex anglo concertina.

[Daniel Hersh]

Yes, thanks very much! I really appreciate both the time you put into writing this and your willingness to share your knowledge with the rest of us.

 

Daniel

 

Thanks Richard for your wonderful replies. I found it fascinating to read such in-depth answers from an expert concertina maker. If anyone should question the high price of concertinas, I will refer them to your posts. I should imagine they will become more humble, as I have, and look with more wonder at the amazingly complex anglo concertina.

[Theodore Kloba]

What's the difference between what's called an accordion reed and what's called a concertina reed? It's my impression that "concertina" reeds are typically built by concertina makers for use in their own instruments while "accordion" reeds often come from a reed-making specialist in Italy. But is there an intrinsic difference in the way they're designed and/or built? And where do German concertina reeds, especially the long-plate type where there are multiple reeds on one plate, fit into the picture? Are they more like an "accordion" or a "concertina" reed?

In addition to all the good stuff Richard Morse mentioned, I"ll add that if you take apart your newly acquired old Chemnitzer and look at the reeds, you'll notice that they are rectangular like concertina reeds, not trapezoidal like accordion reeds!

If you hunt around for reed suppliers, you'll find that none of the "specialists in Italy" make "long plate" reeds anymore. Their tooling got old, demand went down, etc.

AFAIK, only Harmonikas Louny in the Czech republic makes them anymore, and they make them using very modern techniques. They're also the only reedmaker I've seen who quantifies the physical differences between their different product offerings; instead of "good better best" they give tolerances. See the "reeds for bandoneons" section

Having "ganged" plates (more than one reed per reedplate, typically two for accordions, and 10-20 for bandoneons and such) was probably just a manufacturing expedient originally which has been refined for certain tonal characteristics (mainly by bandoneons, early chemnizters, some bayans, etc.).

The better new chemnitzers still have this type of reed, and in chemnitzer circles, waxed-in accordion reeds (and the different reedblock design they require) are generally considered inferior just as they would be in English-construction concertinas. Personally, I think rectangular rather than trapezoidal reeds attached to the right kind of reedblock construction could get the traditional Chemnitzer sound out of an instrument with waxed in reeds. (Take a look at "reeds on [the] zinc vocal plates" on the Louny website.)