danersen Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Hello All, I waited until PayPal resolved this matter (in my favor) before posting this. If you encounter a metal-ended 58b Jeffries Duet for sale, open it up and check it out FULLY. I learned an expensive lesson about the unqualified use and meaning of the terms "restored" and "in excellent condition". The evaluation that was required by PayPal yielded a USD $1400 estimate to put it in proper playing condition. No need to say any more except that it's now back in the UK. Be Well, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marien Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) Hello Dan, Is this the same instrument? Edited September 10, 2009 by marien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 Hello Marien, This one is a different instrument. Fewer Buttons Different Handstraps Different Bellows MUCH cleaner inside as much as I can discern from the photo Different seller Be Well, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksrake Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Hello Marien, This one is a different instrument. Fewer Buttons Different Handstraps Different Bellows MUCH cleaner inside as much as I can discern from the photo Different seller Be Well, Dan Yup... and the seller of that one has lots of lovely feedback, is well known to at least one regular poster on here and would be more than willing to provide any extra info / photographs, if requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neill Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Dan, i would`nt go slagging the concertina off just yet as i have put an appeal in about the state of the concertina when it was returned to me. When the concertina was posted to you it was in perfect working condition. When you received it you seemed happy with it apart from on note you said did`nt sound on the draw. Now you`ve had you hands inside it, it would cost £1400 to to getin playing condition.........your words. I will be taking the concertina to Chris Algar tomorrow for his verdict. I bought the concertina from him 5 months ago, never took it apart, you had it three months, had a poke around inside and then have the nerve to slag the concertina off. Maybe you should take a good look in the mirror before throwing stones neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neill Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Hello Marien, This one is a different instrument. Fewer Buttons Different Handstraps Different Bellows MUCH cleaner inside as much as I can discern from the photo Different seller Be Well, Dan Yup... and the seller of that one has lots of lovely feedback, is well known to at least one regular poster on here and would be more than willing to provide any extra info / photographs, if requested. Dan bought my concertina for £1200 with a buy it now on ebay. I have a rating of 722 and 99.4% positive. Dan never requested additional photos or asked me any questions before he hit the buy it now button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I had a feeling that we'd be hearing from the seller at some point... Dan, i would`nt go slagging the concertina off just yet as i have put an appeal in about the state of the concertina when it was returned to me. When the concertina was posted to you it was in perfect working condition. When you received it you seemed happy with it apart from on note you said did`nt sound on the draw. Now you`ve had you hands inside it, it would cost £1400 to to getin playing condition.........your words. I will be taking the concertina to Chris Algar tomorrow for his verdict. I bought the concertina from him 5 months ago, never took it apart, you had it three months, had a poke around inside and then have the nerve to slag the concertina off. Maybe you should take a good look in the mirror before throwing stones neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) For the record: Edited September 14, 2009 by danersen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wim wakker Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Although I have no intention to get involved in this dispute, I feel an explanation of our restoration quote is in order. The quote is a specification of work needed to restore the instrument to ‘new’ condition, It does not say anything about the current value. The word ‘restored’ is used freely in relation to concertinas. It can consist of new pads, valves and tuning, or a complete rebuild. This quote refers to work we feel is needed to bring it up to new condition. There is an obvious relation between the sales price of an instrument and the level of restoration you can expect. This instrument was in playing condition with replacement valves, pads and in tune. It seems to me the dispute is about the word ‘restored’, not the instrument. Personally I think a working/tuned 58 key Jeffries duet for $2000, or completely restored to new condition for under $3500 is a very good deal… Wim Wakker Concertina Connection Inc. Wakker Concertinas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Personally I think a working/tuned 58 key Jeffries duet for $2000, or completely restored to new condition for under $3500 is a very good deal… I agree, I'd pay considerably more for an equivalent Hayden duet! But I'd probably lose the resulting bidding war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marien Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Hello Dan, I agree that 1400 usd + 1200 GBP is a lot of money , but if you consider that a 39b anglo jeffries at Hobgoblin in Manchester is offered for 6750 GBP, which is more then 5 times 1200, well, what to say more.... Compared to an anglo, any type of Duet may be cheap because there is not too much demand (there aren't that many duet players). But if you wanted to have the jeffries restored, don't forget that it has 116 reeds which is a lot more than the usual 60 to 78 of an anglo... Cheers, Marien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hello Marien, Your described scenario, though intriguing, is not for me. Perhaps, however, some reader of this forum will see the merit of it, acquire the concertina on that basis, and some good might come of this unfortunate situation. Be Well, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Drinkwater Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Without wishing to get involved in the dispute, I'd like to add, from my own experience of buying concertinas, described as having been 'restored to full playing condition', that there are people out there who restore concertinas, either professionally, or amateurishly, to varying standards, depending on the overall condition of the concertina and their skill level. I bought a 'restored' Lachenal EC a while back, which was seemingly playable. Some weeks later, I showed it to a professional concertina repairer, who took a look inside. He told me straight away that the wrong valves and pads had been used to replace the old ones. I wouldn't have had a clue. They all look the same to me. He also made a few comments about the overall condition of the concertina and suggested other minor work that should be done to make it properly playable, including some retuning. I trusted his opinion. I don't think he was saying it, just to get work! So, I ended up leaving the concertina with him for him to 're-restore' it, at further cost to myself. I did notice the difference afterwards! Looking at the photos of the inside of the Jeffries duet and Wim Wakker's condition report, it would seem that the previous 'restoration' work that has been done to it, is very basic, just enough to make it playable, and, as in the case of my concertina, not especially well done, anyway. Chris Algar does some basic restoration work himself, replacing valves, etc. I have seen him doing it. Otherwise, he uses restorers like Mike Acott and David Leese to carry out the more major restoration work where needed. They both have good reputations as restorers, so I would trust them. The majority of concertinas that Chris sells, he says, have been 'restored to playing condition', whatever that means, but I know that he doesn't always take a look inside himself when they come back from being restored, to check on the quality of the restoration. Personally, I think, if a concertina need restoring and is a good make like a Wheatstone or Jeffries and one of the better models in the range, like an Aeola, then it benefits from having a skilled restorer do the best possible restoration on it, subject to cost. I buy concertinas to play them, not as an investment! And I want them to play well, sound good and not fall apart, or deveop faults in a short space of time. Caveat emptor! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Perhaps an analogy can be useful: One buys a vintage 1957 classic automobile represented as being in restored and excellent condition. Upon delivery and further inspection further inspection - a look under the hood, a crawl under the carriage, and a drive around the neighborhood - it's determined that the vehicle actually needs new brakes, belts, a heater, shock absorbers, a remount of the exhaust manifold, and an alignment. The upholstery, it is learned, was not replaced with proper period fabric, and the carburetor is not an original model replacement. Without regard to price - which may have been regarded as an initial bargain by some observers ... Is this vehicle restored and in excellent condition? Certainly, it is drivable ... but is it in restored and excellent condition? Be Well, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neill Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Perhaps an analogy can be useful: One buys a vintage 1957 classic automobile represented as being in restored and excellent condition. Upon delivery and further inspection further inspection - a look under the hood, a crawl under the carriage, and a drive around the neighborhood - it's determined that the vehicle actually needs new brakes, belts, a heater, shock absorbers, a remount of the exhaust manifold, and an alignment. The upholstery, it is learned, was not replaced with proper period fabric, and the carburetor is not an original model replacement. Without regard to price - which may have been regarded as an initial bargain by some observers ... Is this vehicle restored and in excellent condition? Certainly, it is drivable ... but is it in restored and excellent condition? Be Well, Dan Perhaps another anology could be: A person, normally playing english concertina, sees a Jeffries duet at a reasonable price and thinks " i wonder what it is like to play a duet?" He hits the buy it now button, and pays the money, and in due course the concertina arrives. He takes it out of the packaging, and tries to figure out the keyboard layout...surley it cant be that much different from the english system. Puzzled he looks for teaching material on the web but finds very little for the Jeffries system. He spends another week or two trying to figure out the system and then decides this is a little tricky, i think i`ll stick to the english system. Now he is stuck with a duet he cant play. AAh, he thinks, there was that note that did`nt play on the draw....this item is not as described and he rushes off to paypal to claim the concertina was significantly different than described, and uses the services of a high quality repairer, who is meticulous in his work to seek out every fault on a 100 year old instrument. He has all the expert evidence paypal require and the buyer has only his word. ......................... ...........or is that too far fetched? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marien Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Without regard to price - which may have been regarded as an initial bargain by some observers ... After the usual not wanting to be involved disclaimer I´ld like to add that the real story doesn't need analogies. To me this didn't smell like a real bargain. Obviously it needs a lot more restoration work than just fixing one note. Happy squeezing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Schwartz Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 It looks like a misunderstanding and not a scam... I've seen all levels of "restoration" too... sometimes a person wants a playable instrument, sometimes they want a showpiece... We'll leave it at that. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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