Baffled by "Alto" EC.

[TonyRussell]

Having read a couple of other threads recently I am baffled by the idea of swapping certain reeds around in an English Concertina. It's not as if the range is shifted - there's Tenor/Trebs and Bari/Basses for that. The thing is not so hard to play in most any key, 'specially compared to a diatonic instrument, and the choice I have noticed is merely to swap over the B/Bb and C/C#. I don't find C maj any easier than F (or G or Bb or, or etc.......) so I must either be misunderstanding what has been said or, well as I say - baffled. Anybody help here? Tony .

PS - I do admit that EC can get complicated once you go beyond 4 sharps etc. but that's going to happen even with shifted reeds, just at a different key.

[John Adey]

Having read a couple of other threads recently I am baffled by the idea of swapping certain reeds around in an English Concertina. It's not as if the range is shifted - there's Tenor/Trebs and Bari/Basses for that. The thing is not so hard to play in most any key, 'specially compared to a diatonic instrument, and the choice I have noticed is merely to swap over the B/Bb and C/C#. I don't find C maj any easier than F (or G or Bb or, or etc.......) so I must either be misunderstanding what has been said or, well as I say - baffled. Anybody help here? Tony .

PS - I do admit that EC can get complicated once you go beyond 4 sharps etc. but that's going to happen even with shifted reeds, just at a different key.

 

Me too Tony; I can't understand the 'logic' of it either. Perhaps someone will enlighten us.

[Ken_Coles]

Maybe the owner was a former anglo player? Swapping reeds is a disease with us!

 

Ken

[m3838]

Maybe the owner was a former anglo player? Swapping reeds is a disease with us!

 

Ken

 

I think it started with me announcing my Tenor in F been for sale.

The idea of F Tenor is a necessity to fit lower range reeds/buttons into a box and have reasonable range, not that it's easier to play in certain key. If you have Treble, but want to play in F, your lower range is cut, so they shifted layout upwards.

[koeter]

Having read a couple of other threads recently I am baffled by the idea of swapping certain reeds around in an English Concertina. It's not as if the range is shifted - there's Tenor/Trebs and Bari/Basses for that. The thing is not so hard to play in most any key, 'specially compared to a diatonic instrument, and the choice I have noticed is merely to swap over the B/Bb and C/C#. I don't find C maj any easier than F (or G or Bb or, or etc.......) so I must either be misunderstanding what has been said or, well as I say - baffled. Anybody help here? Tony .

PS - I do admit that EC can get complicated once you go beyond 4 sharps etc. but that's going to happen even with shifted reeds, just at a different key.

 

Hi Tony,

You have allready read my remark in the Tenor / Alto EC thread. For the other interested I repeat it:

"Why changing the instrument instead of transposing the pieces 5 notes down which is easily performed with the help of an inexpensive notation program?

Juergen

[Boney]

Why changing the instrument instead of transposing the pieces 5 notes down which is easily performed with the help of an inexpensive notation program?

I presume because it lets you play the tunes you already know in a lower key without having to change fingering, or think about it. If you have a lot of tunes on "automatic pilot," that could be fun and useful. Especially if you don't want to spend time entering tunes into a program. Some might prefer to rework the fingering slightly to play in another key, or even learn to do it on the fly, which is a fun and useful challenge, but takes a lot of work. Whatever you want to spend your time on, I guess.

[TonyRussell]

I think it started with me announcing my Tenor in F been for sale.

The idea of F Tenor is a necessity to fit lower range reeds/buttons into a box and have reasonable range, not that it's easier to play in certain key. If you have Treble, but want to play in F, your lower range is cut, so they shifted layout upwards.

No it wasn't just that, I've seen this mentioned in threads before, although yours may be different.

But now you're onto this thread I appreciate your input, but don't quite understand what you mean by the above . Are you saying that all the reeds are shifted (I didn't think they'd all fit) to extend the range downward? Like a TT? The impression I was under is that one or two accidentals are moved onto the "naturals" row - and that's the bit (unless I'm wrong) that I don't get (I play a lot of stuff in F on my treble anyway - even Eb which is lower).

Boney - I see your point; but maybe my brain works differently as I seem to learn a tune as a series of intervals rather than button positions, I have been known to play a whole tune in the "wrong" key without realising (my pal on fiddle was horrified - he doesn't like F for some reason ). Tony.

[m3838]

. Are you saying that all the reeds are shifted (I didn't think they'd all fit) to extend the range downward?

 

Not sure if the reeds are "shifted", but an "F" instrument goes down further than Treble. If you use treble to play in F, you may not have enough notes for useful rangte in F. "F" instrument does. So if you play mostly in F or Eb, and rarely in C, D or G, treble range will be limited in the lows, but offer unnecessary abundance of notes above the stave. Instead of getting heavier and rare, expencive(!) extended range Trebles, you may do better with shorter range "F". I don't see it as "automatic transposer". In fact, after 5 years of learning 5 row CBA, I am convinced that it's assumed transposing capability is overstated. For this reason such uniform keyboard layouts as Hayden, piano-chromaic and Kravtzov systems don't appeal to me as much. At least theoretically. I don't think that multi-thousand $$ instrument is designed for amateurs, who can't transpose. I think a set of cheaper 20 button Lachenals in C/g, G/d and Eb/f are easer to handle, more joy to play than 40 button anglo. And the extended benefit of such a set is that each instrument will have it's unique character, not only different key.

Haven't touched my concertina in months though. Such an adviser I am.

[TonyRussell]

Quote> "Alto means, that the instrument will sound five notes down, when played

one row down with normal fingering. So it will play in F rather than C.

To change the system I have exchanged all B and Bflat reeds ( easy, as they have the same size ).

To complete the change, all Eflat-reeds would have to be tuned down to C#......." <End quote.

 

Thanks to all who have tried to rationalise so far - but I'm still not sure we are all talking about the same phenomenon .....

I found the above in the ads from a short while back (m3838, it's not you, your post is about extended range). I think that "normal fingering" means playing on the inner two rows without using any accidentals. Further on it mentions the reeds (B & Bb) that were swapped over. So, that's not extending the range is it? It's creating a transposing instrument (to play in F using C fingering, no? )

So I'm back where I started - baffled and still wanting to figure it out .

Please don't misunderstand this as a dig at anyone (I know folks who carry a retuned fiddle for "odd-key" songs, guitarists use capos etc.) I really, really want to understand, but the quote above does not support some explanations offered so far (swap over certain reeds and a treble still only goes down to G). I could understand if someone says it's 'cos they can only play in one key and it's the wrong one ; at least it would make some kinda sense.

Regards, Tony

[m3838]

Thanks to all who have tried to rationalise so far - but I'm still not sure we are all talking about the same phenomenon .....

I found the above in the ads from a short while back (m3838, it's not you, your post is about extended range). I think that "normal fingering" means playing on the inner two rows without using any accidentals. Further on it mentions the reeds (B & Bb) that were swapped over. So, that's not extending the range is it? It's creating a transposing instrument (to play in F using C fingering, no? )

If you imagine, that to make an "F" EC you will only have to swap B for Bb, you are mistaken. You also rearrange the reeds, so whereever you had C, now you will have F. It means extending the range downward. Not only you can use "C fingering" and play automatically in "F", you will also be able to play full (or fuller) range in F, without been cut half way down. Lowest note on standard treble is G below middle C. Lowest note on Tenor in F is D above bass cleff C. The whole range is shifted 5 notes down. You can't play this low on treble.

[Larry Stout]

I think that what many of us don't understand is why an alto (a treble modified to be in F rather than C) has any advantage over a more standard tenor (which has the range of a viola-- starting with a low C, but still with the naturals in the middle two columns and the accidentals on the outside). If you ignore the bottom row of a tenor it is exactly like a treble. What you get for that extra row is the lower notes. The F tenor seems to be one note higher than the standard tenor (if its lowest note is a D).

 

I've heard it said that transposing instruments were made to play brass band music (presumably as written for transposing instruments). But I always thought that the transposing instruments tended to be in B flat or E flat rather than F.

[TonyRussell]

Thanks to all who have tried to rationalise so far - but I'm still not sure we are all talking about the same phenomenon .....

I found the above in the ads from a short while back (m3838, it's not you, your post is about extended range). I think that "normal fingering" means playing on the inner two rows without using any accidentals. Further on it mentions the reeds (B & Bb) that were swapped over. So, that's not extending the range is it? It's creating a transposing instrument (to play in F using C fingering, no? )

If you imagine, that to make an "F" EC you will only have to swap B for Bb, you are mistaken. You also rearrange the reeds, so whereever you had C, now you will have F. It means extending the range downward. Not only you can use "C fingering" and play automatically in "F", you will also be able to play full (or fuller) range in F, without been cut half way down. Lowest note on standard treble is G below middle C. Lowest note on Tenor in F is D above bass cleff C. The whole range is shifted 5 notes down. You can't play this low on treble.

 

Hi there m. Read again what I said (particularly in the light of the quote from "conzertino" above it) and you'll see that's exactly my point It's him not me that's mistaken .

What was said in the quote I posted would not do what you have above - he mentioned only changing B/Bb. Your system will extend the range downwards - although not as far as a "regular" tenor-treble.

But even so; like Larry and Juergen, I still can't figure out why you can't play Bb on the outer row and nobody has explained that yet

Regards, Tony .

[m3838]

Your system will extend the range downwards - although not as far as a "regular" tenor-treble.

But even so; like Larry and Juergen, I still can't figure out why you can't play Bb on the outer row and nobody has explained that yet

Regards, Tony .

 

Hi Tony.

With so many respondents it's hard to keep track of who said what, so I apologise for inapropriate quoting.

I don't know why is it impossible to play like you suggest. Probably it's very possible, so that's why nobody could explain it to you. Nothing really to explain, you got it right.

The only remark I would make here is about "regular" Tenor-Treble. There is no such thing as "regular Tenor-treble".

(aside the fact that these are larger, more expencive and heavier instruments)

If you swap B for Bb, while keeping "Naturals" in the middle, you create entirely new EC system. "Naturals" change with every key. In "F" concertina naturals are perfectly in the middle, only they:

a. include Bb and

b. this Bb is not where B is in Treble.

"Standard Tenor" that starts on low C is what my instrument is - Tenor in F (not D, as I stated earlier. It was a typo, sorry about that)

It has very different locations of notes, while it's natural row has only one flat - Bb.

It's range is shifted 5 notes down.

If you want exact layout as Treble, but lower - it's Baritone. The reason for existence of Tenors is not ( I believe) to transpose, but to offer lower range, but not as low as Baritones. Baritone is slower and chords on it may sound mushy. Tenor has best of two worlds: it's fast enough, low enough and able to produce agreeable harmony.