Microphones placed on the concertina

[Lawrence Reeves]

Although I don't do it on a regular basis, certain performances call for amplification. My issues are if using two reasonable cardioid or hyper cardioid microphones one gets a great sound( assuming the sound person is on the ball), but in loud venues and festivals I occasionally get feedback problems. I currently am using two AKG C416L mics attached to the strap button. They run a very thin wires connecting to a proprietary preamp from AKG. It allows the mic levels to be individually adjusted, and then sends one XLR out to the sound man. I have to admit the two main advantages are not being locked into a position between two mics, and the less likely chance of feedback. The big disadvantage is the sound quality is a little harsh on most sound systems. My other problem is that the small amount of weight seems to affect bellows movement a little bit, almost pulling open a small amount. The point of the post is more a poll from players regularly using mini mics as opposed to pickups. I would love to hear sonic reviews from any players on the forum that have experience with this type of microphone preamp combo. Brands I would like to know about, but have not tried are small Sennhieser, DPA,Crown, Beyerdynamic, and Shure. I have experience with Audiotechnica, and find them to be very similar to the AKGs currently used.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Lawrence Reeves

[hjcjones]

I use a pair of AKG C4I6Ls. They're very light (55 g/1.9 oz. according to the spec) and I haven't noticed any problem with the weight or pulling on the bellows as you describe.

 

AKG C416L

 

They've now been discontinued and replaced by the C516, which is possibly a bit more robust but the mount is a bit bulkier.

 

AKG C516L

 

(NB These links are simply to illustrate the mics, I'm not endorsing the vendors)

 

I didn't want to stick the mounts to my instruments with velcro or anything else, and besides I use them on two concertinas and getting extra mounts out of AKG is next to impossible. Instead, I use a couple of velcro straps from B&Q. I've glued velcro to the mounts which attach to the velcro straps, and the straps fit around the end of the instrument. It's a bit more fiddly to put on than simply clipping to a pre-fixed mount, but it's very secure once on.

 

I've had no complaints about the sound.

[Lawrence Reeves]

How do you get these to the sound system? I am using a B29 from AKG and suspect this to be the item causing edgy sound.

I really want to try DPA 4061, but haven't found a shop within a 6 hour drive that has them to audition. I use the strap button to hold mine to the instrument. It is easy to attach with no need of velcro.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Lawrence Reeves

[Larry Stout]

I'll admit that I've always played in situations where the concertina was loud enough to be heard without amplification, but I've wondered about this. Has anyone tried having lavelier mics like those used to pick up speech clipped to the cuffs of the shirt near hands? It puts the mic on the player rather than the instrument. I could easily imagine myself wanting to change instruments mid tune and therefore wanting not to have the instrument tied to the sound system. In the situations I play in I'm often switching between concertina, fiddle, and perhaps viola d'amore or mandolin for a variety of timbres. In other situations I might want to switch between a treble concertina and a baritone. This actually sounds like a nightmare for a sound person, so it is probably good that my band plays for dances in acoustic mode, rather than through a sound system.

[Lawrence Reeves]

It is easier on the sound person if you have separate mic/ pickup for each instrument played. Assuming the board has enough inputs, they get levels and eq for each instrument, mute or un-mute the channel as being used. There is a big enough difference between the treble and baritones to cause trouble if just moving the mics from one instrument to another. If using a pair of mics on stands and changing instruments the sound person will likely have a preset or manual adjust to marked levels as ea instrument is played.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Lawrence Reeves

[Alan Day]

I have never been happy with these little mikes.The advantages of course is that you can move around the stage the only restriction being the length of wire that is attached to them.They are lightweight and I would recommend the velcro attachment idea that has been suggested.The disadvantages for me is that a mike each end picks up what is beneath it so it needs to be central to the instrument if not some notes come out louder than others. The Air button sound is amplified, as is any clacking from the buttons, because of the near proximity of the mike. The best result I ever had was a little device that held the mike about six inches away from the concertina above the hand. I strongly would not recommend a mike inside the bellows.

Of all the different systems for miking up a concertina I found that two good quality mikes on stands set up about 18inches away from each end. The distance is to counteract the difference in volume due to bellows action (Opened -Closed)The mikes set at a comfortable height for your playing.

The disadvantage is that you are static, but the sound,which is the most important to your listening audience, is of the best quality.

Al

[Rod]

I have never been happy with these little mikes.The advantages of course is that you can move around the stage the only restriction being the length of wire that is attached to them.They are lightweight and I would recommend the velcro attachment idea that has been suggested.The disadvantages for me is that a mike each end picks up what is beneath it so it needs to be central to the instrument if not some notes come out louder than others. The Air button sound is amplified, as is any clacking from the buttons, because of the near proximity of the mike. The best result I ever had was a little device that held the mike about six inches away from the concertina above the hand. I strongly would not recommend a mike inside the bellows.

Of all the different systems for miking up a concertina I found that two good quality mikes on stands set up about 18inches away from each end. The distance is to counteract the difference in volume due to bellows action (Opened -Closed)The mikes set at a comfortable height for your playing.

The disadvantage is that you are static, but the sound,which is the most important to your listening audience, is of the best quality.

Al

 

I question whether the Concertina is an appropriate instrument to consider for any sort of electronic amplification or modification. God forbid that it should begin to follow the example of electric guitars, which now bear so little comparison to their infinitely superior accoustic cousins.

[Alan Day]

I have never been happy with these little mikes.The advantages of course is that you can move around the stage the only restriction being the length of wire that is attached to them.They are lightweight and I would recommend the velcro attachment idea that has been suggested.The disadvantages for me is that a mike each end picks up what is beneath it so it needs to be central to the instrument if not some notes come out louder than others. The Air button sound is amplified, as is any clacking from the buttons, because of the near proximity of the mike. The best result I ever had was a little device that held the mike about six inches away from the concertina above the hand. I strongly would not recommend a mike inside the bellows.

Of all the different systems for miking up a concertina I found that two good quality mikes on stands set up about 18inches away from each end. The distance is to counteract the difference in volume due to bellows action (Opened -Closed)The mikes set at a comfortable height for your playing.

The disadvantage is that you are static, but the sound,which is the most important to your listening audience, is of the best quality.

Al

 

I question whether the Concertina is an appropriate instrument to consider for any sort of electronic amplification or modification. God forbid that it should begin to follow the example of electric guitars, which now bear so little comparison to their infinitely superior accoustic cousins.

There are times Rod when amplification is necessary,large concerts,dances and sadly loud venues. The latter I do not bother with.Recording is a form of amplification ie.using mikes and as near to perfection is required. There is no way a condenser mike would be good enough for that.

For most band work I find that the best results is to reduce or delete the treble and turn up the bass volume. Certainly the route if you are using a couple of these little clip on mikes. Anyone ever used them strapped to the arm pointing towards the concertina? I tried them on the back of the hand ,but I was not happy with the result.

Al

[Gavin Atkin]

I have never been happy with these little mikes.The advantages of course is that you can move around the stage the only restriction being the length of wire that is attached to them.They are lightweight and I would recommend the velcro attachment idea that has been suggested.The disadvantages for me is that a mike each end picks up what is beneath it so it needs to be central to the instrument if not some notes come out louder than others. The Air button sound is amplified, as is any clacking from the buttons, because of the near proximity of the mike. The best result I ever had was a little device that held the mike about six inches away from the concertina above the hand. I strongly would not recommend a mike inside the bellows.

Of all the different systems for miking up a concertina I found that two good quality mikes on stands set up about 18inches away from each end. The distance is to counteract the difference in volume due to bellows action (Opened -Closed)The mikes set at a comfortable height for your playing.

The disadvantage is that you are static, but the sound,which is the most important to your listening audience, is of the best quality.

Al

 

I question whether the Concertina is an appropriate instrument to consider for any sort of electronic amplification or modification. God forbid that it should begin to follow the example of electric guitars, which now bear so little comparison to their infinitely superior accoustic cousins.

 

Duh? I love my Stratocaster!

 

I'm with Alan on micing tinas btw.

 

Gav

[hjcjones]

How do you get these to the sound system? I am using a B29 from AKG

I use a B29 as well. Our sound engineer seems happy.

 

AKG also do phantom-powered versions. The reason I didn't get these was that at the time I wanted to keep my options open to be able to play with desks without phantom power (including my multi-track recorder). With hindsight this was possibly a mistake, and most desks (even small ones) now usually come with phantom power.

 

I use the strap button to hold mine to the instrument. It is easy to attach with no need of velcro.

I don't have a strap button, so this isn't an option - my Crabb anglo has short straps.

 

Larry, the little tie-clip mics are omni-directional so they pick up everything - not good when you're playing on stage with other loud acoustic instruments, not to mention foldback monitors. I frequently change instruments mid-tune, but never between one concertina and another, and not just because of the issue of swapping mics - the reason I change instruments is to bring in a completely different sound.

 

Alan, the AKGs I use are on goosenecks, so the mic capsule is postioned above the centre of the instrument. Some mechanical noise may also be amplified, but it tends to get lost in the overall sound of the band.

 

For the best sound, good quality mics on stands as suggested by Alan are the best option. The problem I find in a band context is a lack of space on stage to set these up properly, and being rooted to one spot. However If I'm playing a solo concert that needs amplification I'll use that system in preference to the on-instrument AKGs.

[Rod]

I have never been happy with these little mikes.The advantages of course is that you can move around the stage the only restriction being the length of wire that is attached to them.They are lightweight and I would recommend the velcro attachment idea that has been suggested.The disadvantages for me is that a mike each end picks up what is beneath it so it needs to be central to the instrument if not some notes come out louder than others. The Air button sound is amplified, as is any clacking from the buttons, because of the near proximity of the mike. The best result I ever had was a little device that held the mike about six inches away from the concertina above the hand. I strongly would not recommend a mike inside the bellows.

Of all the different systems for miking up a concertina I found that two good quality mikes on stands set up about 18inches away from each end. The distance is to counteract the difference in volume due to bellows action (Opened -Closed)The mikes set at a comfortable height for your playing.

The disadvantage is that you are static, but the sound,which is the most important to your listening audience, is of the best quality.

Al

 

I question whether the Concertina is an appropriate instrument to consider for any sort of electronic amplification or modification. God forbid that it should begin to follow the example of electric guitars, which now bear so little comparison to their infinitely superior accoustic cousins.

There are times Rod when amplification is necessary,large concerts,dances and sadly loud venues. The latter I do not bother with.Recording is a form of amplification ie.using mikes and as near to perfection is required. There is no way a condenser mike would be good enough for that.

For most band work I find that the best results is to reduce or delete the treble and turn up the bass volume. Certainly the route if you are using a couple of these little clip on mikes. Anyone ever used them strapped to the arm pointing towards the concertina? I tried them on the back of the hand ,but I was not happy with the result.

Al

 

Yes Al, On occasions when greater volume is an essential ingredient of the music, amplification of some sort must be the only satisfactory solution. However, I prefer to think of the Concertina as a 'genteel' instrument more suited to the smaller more intimate environment in which amplification need never become a significant issue. There is, I would think, always the danger that exaggerated volume and amplification will destroy the quality of sound. If a Concertina player finds him or herself in an environment where amplification becomes an essential survival tecnique this suggests to me that they are simply in an environment unsuited to the instrument. However, as I have no direct experience of such a situation my opinions on the matter can safely be ignored ! Rod

[hjcjones]

If a Concertina player finds him or herself in an environment where amplification becomes an essential survival tecnique this suggests to me that they are simply in an environment unsuited to the instrument.

 

Like it or not, amplification is now essential in all but the most intimate environments. Whether it's bands playing for dances, or soloists or small ensembles playing concerts, some sort of sound reinforcement is usually necessary. This may not be simply a matter of raw volume, often it is to balance the levels of sound produced by very different instruments.

 

How did performers manage in the days before amplification? Well, in many cases they were probably playing in much smaller venues, or with much larger bands. Possibly, audiences were more attentive - modern audiences often seem to regard music, even live music, as background noise and see nothing wrong with talking during a performance; this forces the band to play more loudly, which then forces up the level of conversation in an ongoing battle. Finally, modern audiences expect music to be amplified and may be rather taken aback if they find they're expected to concentrate in order to hear the music.

 

Either we accept that the concertina belongs to more "genteel" times and situations, or we take advantage of modern technology to enable it to continue to have a place in the modern musical world. I know which side of that argument I'm on.

 

There are many practical difficulties to be overcome, and it's true that in some instances the quality of sound may suffer, but the result is that the concertina continues to be heard on public stages.

[Azalin]

Yes Al, On occasions when greater volume is an essential ingredient of the music, amplification of some sort must be the only satisfactory solution. However, I prefer to think of the Concertina as a 'genteel' instrument more suited to the smaller more intimate environment in which amplification need never become a significant issue. There is, I would think, always the danger that exaggerated volume and amplification will destroy the quality of sound. If a Concertina player finds him or herself in an environment where amplification becomes an essential survival tecnique this suggests to me that they are simply in an environment unsuited to the instrument. However, as I have no direct experience of such a situation my opinions on the matter can safely be ignored ! Rod

 

I think for an irish ceili a concertina is a great instrument and amplification is required for sure.

[Alan Day]

I remember well Rod ,going up to London to try microphones out and took my concertina with me. One of the shops I went into I tried out two top quality condenser mike's and stupidly asked how loud would it play using a good system. They plugged me into an amplification system that would have been loud for The Albert Hall.I can honestly say that my ears were whistling for days afterwards and would not be at all surprised if it didn't start the damage to my hearing.

I rarely play with a mike system now and where possible I follow the same route as you Rod adjusting the sound level to suit myself and the listening audience.

Al

[Larry Stout]

Like it or not, amplification is now essential in all but the most intimate environments. Whether it's bands playing for dances, or soloists or small ensembles playing concerts, some sort of sound reinforcement is usually necessary. This may not be simply a matter of raw volume, often it is to balance the levels of sound produced by very different instruments.

 

How did performers manage in the days before amplification? Well, in many cases they were probably playing in much smaller venues, or with much larger bands. Possibly, audiences were more attentive - modern audiences often seem to regard music, even live music, as background noise and see nothing wrong with talking during a performance; this forces the band to play more loudly, which then forces up the level of conversation in an ongoing battle.

 

...

 

I play for dances that attract about 50 people monthly. My band plays unamplified and manages to fill the room. We have a piano, two fiddles (or fiddle and concertina, depending on which I'm playing), a cello, and two recorder players. That's not tiny, but it isn't large enough that we are filling the hall with the sound of a multitude. The caller uses a mic. I guess that the dancers are more polite and attentive to the music than one finds in some venues. I'll admit that I use my louder concertinas in this setting.

 

I once played a duo performance in a concert hall which seats about 500. I was playing fiddle and concertina and the other guy was playing fiddle and harp. Between us the sound crew had set up five mics: one each for the fiddles, one pointed at each end of the concertina, and one pointed at the harp. We sounded pretty good. Another show just used a very live mic above the players, which also worked.

[Alan Day]

You remind me of two gigs we did with GIGCB one was in France and we were all up on stage playing to a packed dance floor and there was a power cut.

We left the stage and continued playing until we reached the centre of the dance floor and the dancers danced around us.We received a standing ovation Another time at Leipzig the evening was split with about four bands all playing in sequence to about four in the morning (there were still about three hundred dancers there then). Due to our large band set up time I went to the centre of the floor and played solo ,gradually as each band member was ready they joined me amplified ,I then went up on stage and the full band launched into the tune.What a great reception we received.

Al

[hjcjones]

I play for dances that attract about 50 people monthly. My band plays unamplified and manages to fill the room.

A lot depends on the acoustics of the room. The ceilidhs I help to run, and regularly play for, take place in a hall with a very high pitched roof. Unamplified, the sound is just lost. Even amplified the sound tends to fall off markedly towards the back of the hall and we often use a second set of speakers at the far end.

 

I once played a duo performance in a concert hall which seats about 500. I was playing fiddle and concertina and the other guy was playing fiddle and harp. Between us the sound crew had set up five mics: one each for the fiddles, one pointed at each end of the concertina, and one pointed at the harp. We sounded pretty good. Another show just used a very live mic above the players, which also worked.

That's certainly my own preference for that kind of performance. However in that situation there's usually plenty of room on stage, which often is not the case with the ceilidh band. We often find ourselves playing on improvised stages where it's a squeeze to physically fit everyone on. If I used mic stands for my set-up I'd take up twice as much space.

[TomB-R]

We left the stage and continued playing until we reached the centre of the dance floor and the dancers danced around us.

 

Am I right in thinking it's quite traditional in Sweden for the musicians to be in the middle of the floor and the dancers all around?

 

Going back to microphones, I think the swan neck (gooseneck?) Audio Technica ATM350s are excellent at £220 or so each.

 

The DPA 4099 is a classier alternative but at around £400 each, a pair gets pricey! Noticeably better sound in a test situation than the ATM350s, but in the real world for performing, I think the ATM350 wins on price/performance ratio.

 

Both of these need phantom power.

 

[Edited for out of date prices!]

Edited September 3, 2009 by TomB-R