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does anyone have this new prototype?


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from music room online. What is it, does anyone know anything about them?

 

 

Click to enlarge Prototype 30 button G/C Concertina

Quickfind code: Prototype Co

£599.00

Description

Every now and then an opportunity arises that the term being in the right place at the right time applies to. This instrument presents one such opportunity.

At The Music Room we never stand still in wanting to find and innovate where traditional musical instruments are concerned. This concertina is the first prototype we have of a "NEW" concertina that will be available from around Winter onwards. As we work with one of the leading Italian reed manufactures and one of Chinas most famous squeezbox makers.

This is not the finished product but oh boy is it good.

30 button G/C with Italian Tipomano reeds this 6 fold bellowed instrument is very loud and bright to play with a very fast action.

We only have 10 and we are confident they will sell very quickly. When we finally bring the finished article to market we expect to be retailing in excess of £1000

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They had the prototype on their stand at Sidmouth and I had a quick, er, twiddle on it. "This is not the finished product but oh boy is it good" is definitely overstating the case. However I would say that it is well worth the asking price, being considerably better than the Rochelle or the Stagis though not as good as, say Marcus, Norman or Morse (the most common brands of hybrid concertinas you see in the UK. As such and at this price level, yes, I think it's an exciting development. I asked Music Room to let me know when there was more information available. If they do, I shall of course pass it on to c.net.

 

Caveat: I didn't have the chance to look inside ...

 

Chris

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They had the prototype on their stand at Sidmouth and I had a quick, er, twiddle on it. "This is not the finished product but oh boy is it good" is definitely overstating the case. However I would say that it is well worth the asking price, being considerably better than the Rochelle or the Stagis though not as good as, say Marcus, Norman or Morse (the most common brands of hybrid concertinas you see in the UK. As such and at this price level, yes, I think it's an exciting development. I asked Music Room to let me know when there was more information available. If they do, I shall of course pass it on to c.net.

 

Caveat: I didn't have the chance to look inside ...

 

Chris

Worth which asking price, the £999 or the £599? I've ordered one already. It must be better than my current Rochelle and no doubt will love it, but can't really give an expert opinion. Do you know what it will be named and who is the maker?

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Worth which asking price, the £999 or the £599? I've ordered one already. It must be better than my current Rochelle and no doubt will love it, but can't really give an expert opinion. Do you know what it will be named and who is the maker?

 

£599 is a very good price for it. £999, I'm not so sure. For not much more you can get a Norman! They hadn't got a name for it when I saw it and they didn't name the maker - "and one of Chinas most famous squeezbox makers" - famous in China maybe. A Chinese maker's name would mean very little to any of us.

 

If you've ordered one of the prototypes then I think you are going to be pleased if what you're comparing with is a Rochelle. Not knocking the Roch, great starter instrument, but the time comes when you want to move on.

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS: hope they make a G/D. My biggest niggle with the Rochelle is that it only comes as a C/G

Edited by Chris Timson
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Edited to add PS: hope they make a G/D. My biggest niggle with the Rochelle is that it only comes as a C/G

 

i really want a G/D as well, but i can't afford one. instead, i'm learning to play tunes on the C/G AS IF i had a G/D so that when i get a G/D in the unforeseen future, i can switch back and forth between C/G and G/D at will (this is because i want to play the same tunes in the same pitch, i.e. same sound but different fingerings).

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i really want a G/D as well, but i can't afford one. instead, i'm learning to play tunes on the C/G AS IF i had a G/D so that when i get a G/D in the unforeseen future, i can switch back and forth between C/G and G/D at will (this is because i want to play the same tunes in the same pitch, i.e. same sound but different fingerings).

 

A completely valid approach, to my mind.

 

Chris

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£599 is a very good price for it. £999, I'm not so sure. For not much more you can get a Norman!

I think my Norman is an amazing piece of kit and after a reasonable amount of investigation I still think he's the best maker I've come across in the mid-price range. I ordered a Norman after John Kirkpatrick spoke highly of them during a workshop I was at. I've never regretted the decision, and if anything, as my playing has slowly improved, I've become more and more impressed. I would recommend a Norman wholeheartedly.

 

However, last time I heard, he's got quite a waiting list - so if you're thinking of getting one in a year or two's time, you might want to get in touch with him now.

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Maybe I'm the only one to have one.

My prototype has arrived. I'll give my opinion but bear in mind I've only played Ebay chinese and Rochelle types. It is smaller than the Rochelle and a lot prettier. Each end fits easily into my palms which means I can reach all the buttons much easier. The sound is bright and tinny as oppose to loud and honky of the Rochelle. I think it sounds more like ones you can hear on you tube. I'm finding a few problems getting used to the button locations as the ends are smaller as mentioned, but that will come with time I hope and suit me better. The air doesn't seem to last as long as on the Rochelle and I'm looking for new places in the music to refuel if you know what I mean, that's my main problem. Delivery in 24 hours was impressive. The concertina came with a free gig bag that I hadn't expected. I played last night with my friends - keyboard, 2 accoustic guitars and a singer. I could hear the others for once and didn't overpower the others as much as usual.

 

Overall I'm very pleased. Thank you for your interest. I'd still like to know what others think. Cheers.

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The air doesn't seem to last as long as on the Rochelle and I'm looking for new places in the music to refuel if you know what I mean, that's my main problem.

Just a tip - you don't have to wait for a space in the music to use the air button, you can use it while playing notes. You do this when you get the opportunity for a bellows reversal during a phrase which is mostly on the pull or push. This enables you to open or close the bellows a lot more than would be the case with a normal bellows reversal. It also reduces those loud gasps of air in the quiet bits!

 

Obviously this takes some air away from the reeds, so you may have to increase the bellows pressure.

 

Hope you're enjoying your new instrument, it's always a thrill.

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I didn't have the chance to look inside ...

Chris,

 

They appear to be the same as the one I was shown in Miltown Malbay a few weeks ago, in which case they're pretty much a direct rip-off of an A.C.Norman inside, as they are outside too. They're also under discussion in the (stickied) Current makes of concertina thread.

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Well, I dunno what you reckon, Stephen, but I would prefer to play a Norman. As I said above, at the £600 asking price it's something of a bargain, but it's not worth a thousand, neither is it the equal of a Norman.

 

I can understand Andrew being more than a little peeved if they've ripped off his internal designs. I imagine he took years to work them out. Unfortunately that's the way a lot of companies (not only Chinese) work nowadays. We've encountered some horrendous examples of plagiarism in the greetings cards world involving UK household names companies. Occasionally the story has a happy ending, as when Mackie took the German company Behringer to court for copying the design of one of their audio interfaces. Mackie were able to show that Behringer had copied everything including unintentional errors off their circuit boards. However it's difficult to see such a happy ending here.

 

Chris

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Just a tip - you don't have to wait for a space in the music to use the air button, you can use it while playing notes. You do this when you get the opportunity for a bellows reversal during a phrase which is mostly on the pull or push. This enables you to open or close the bellows a lot more than would be the case with a normal bellows reversal.

You'll find after a while that you do this pretty well automatically. Well worth working on as a technique.

 

Chris

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I didn't have the chance to look inside ...

Chris,

 

They appear to be the same as the one I was shown in Miltown Malbay a few weeks ago, in which case they're pretty much a direct rip-off of an A.C.Norman inside, as they are outside too. They're also under discussion in the (stickied) Current makes of concertina thread.

 

so they're a ripoff of a copy?

 

 

Well, I dunno what you reckon, Stephen, but I would prefer to play a Norman. As I said above, at the £600 asking price it's something of a bargain, but it's not worth a thousand, neither is it the equal of a Norman.

 

I can understand Andrew being more than a little peeved if they've ripped off his internal designs. I imagine he took years to work them out. Unfortunately that's the way a lot of companies (not only Chinese) work nowadays. We've encountered some horrendous examples of plagiarism in the greetings cards world involving UK household names companies. Occasionally the story has a happy ending, as when Mackie took the German company Behringer to court for copying the design of one of their audio interfaces. Mackie were able to show that Behringer had copied everything including unintentional errors off their circuit boards. However it's difficult to see such a happy ending here.

 

Chris

 

although i agree with you that it is unfortunate, and definitely unfair, i dont think this is very different from how things have always been. patent law was created because many designers and inventors were unhappy with their designs being reproduced by others without compensation. clearly this is a reflection that people have always tried to take ideas from each other.

 

i am not familiar with uk intellectual property laws, but i am sure that it would be very difficult for mr. norman to protect his intellectual property rights without having previously filed a claim of ownership over the design in some manner.

 

on the upside, the designs for jeffries and wheatstone etc have been around for ~100 years, and yet customers still understand that it is the adherence to design and quality in manufacture that makes the difference, and not just the design itself. the linota design has surely been copied and used as a foundation many times, yet wally carroll's concertinas seem to capture the sound and spirit of a good linota better than any other modern copy (and if i might add, that the action in the newest carrolls is adjustable, more durable, and quicker, and thus they are an improvement). everyone has had access to the same linotas to copy, so clearly access to a design is not all that goes into a good concertina. and of course, we all know how much people try to copy the jeffries style, and most would say it has never been done.

 

so, i am sure people will know that a norman is going to be better than this copy of a copy, and will stick by a quality maker. who knows... hopefully people who get these "prototypes" will be told by members of the community that it is just a knock off of a knock off, and then they will order a norman, in order to get a similar but higher quality instrument.

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i really want a G/D as well, but i can't afford one. instead, i'm learning to play tunes on the C/G AS IF i had a G/D so that when i get a G/D in the unforeseen future, i can switch back and forth between C/G and G/D at will (this is because i want to play the same tunes in the same pitch, i.e. same sound but different fingerings).

 

A completely valid approach, to my mind.

 

Chris

 

i thought so. i just cant believe it took me so long to think of it! i've been doing well so far. i have previously worked on switching D tunes to the key of C, so as to be able to play how they did "back in the day," which is very helpful for this process.

 

in order to transpose a key in D, first i transpose it into C (played "in the rows"), and then i just switch it to the inner row to make it in G (chording may need to be adjusted), which on a G/D will end up in D. eventually i start to change the fingering to an across the row style, but it is easier to learn it first in the row, as it allows from instant transposition from C to G. i find it easier to transpose from D to C than from D to G, though as i am getting practice in it i can go from D to G very easily, and from G to C, even.

 

for G tunes, i just push them up a few buttons to make it in C. i have started learning G tunes in D as well (just for fun), but this will help me put A tunes into D, as many A tunes were originally in G to begin with.

 

if nothing else, it is good exercise in transposition, and i have also been taking D tunes and transposing them down to A and F for fun (i like the low notes). i had a lot of trouble doing that kind of stuff before, but after working on transposing around in order to practice for playing a G/D, i have been much more able to "think in other keys" and transpose more automatically rather than only under extreme effort.

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In reply to David Boveri's posts :

I have also switched from C/G to G/D and reflected about how to approach it ; it was discussed there.

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php...#092;&st=18

 

I eventually ended up with an approach similar to yours : transposing in a "convenient key"

that can be played along the rows. I also found such exercices stimulating and this gave me facility

to transpose "on the flight", a thing that first appeared very difficult to me.

 

However, this approach will only lead you to play a G/D in a similar style than you already do on the C/G.

From your posts I am assuming that you play mostly melodies in the Irish style. You can already

play melodies in nearly all keys on the C/G, so if it is to play the same thing why do you need a G/D ?

 

In my case I'm also playing mostly Irish on the C/G, but with the G/D I have experimented other things

in a chorded style ( à la Jody Kruskal, humbly saying ). In this case transposing "on the flight"

a melody as well as the corresponding chords is still too much challenging to me, and I end up

writing down a transposition.

 

PS :

at the moment I'm overjoyed with my "Dipperized Wheatstone" in C/G and don't think much

about the G/D, but my addicition to instrument-buying-syndrome will ineluctably come back someday

and I will URGELY NEED a better G/D than my stagi...

Edited by david fabre
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so, i am sure people will know that a norman is going to be better than this copy of a copy, and will stick by a quality maker. who knows... hopefully people who get these "prototypes" will be told by members of the community that it is just a knock off of a knock off, and then they will order a norman, in order to get a similar but higher quality instrument.

 

There us one respect where Andrew Norman is ahead of many hybrid makers, especially in the UK*, in offering a fair degree of customisation to his customers. Personally, although it is regrettable if these concertinas have ripped of his designs I don't think he will actually lose sales. I think the hybrid makers of whatever source are tapping into a market which always seems to want more concertinas than are actually available. Peolple looking for a better instrument will sooner or later end up here or the FAQ and learn what they need to know.

 

Chris

 

* I know that Herrington, Tedrow, Edgeley et al offer similar customisation but they are rare in the UK.

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I know there are those whose financial situation requires the purchase of a "knock-off," but it is not in the interest of the concertina community to reward these thieves of intellectual property by purchasing these instruments, if they are indeed the product of a stolen design. Besides the moral issue, if Chinese knock-offs gain the dominence of the market, as they have in other manufactured goods (often by similar tactics), there will be no "western" makers --- in this price range, at least. Competition is only valid if there is a level playing field in terms of wages, design security, etc. Let them come up with their own designs, and pay a comparable wage, and then we'll see fair competition.

Edited by Frank Edgley
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