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Children, New Zealand, and concertinas


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I've been corresponding with a few South Africans friends lately, learning about their concertina customs and such. One thing I've noticed is the large number of Boer children learning the Anglo, and playing them in school bands (in small groups with fiddles, guitars, and such, some even electric). That, and the number of people they have in their two main Boer music clubs (where the concertina is the main attraction) is quite astonishing for such a small population.

 

In Ireland, those of us who have been to Willie Clancy (or, I suppose, Eigse Mrs Crotty in previous years, though I never made it to that) will remember the large numbers of children in their concertina classes; Peter Laban has posted some beautiful photos of some of them on the main c.net site.

 

I've been thinking that participation by children is a really good gauge of how vibrant a concertina-playing culture there is in a country. Workshops I have been to in the US (Button Box, and our own at Palestine) and the UK (Bradfield and Whitney) are mainly attended by people in their 50s and 60s (like me!). Am I missing some events in either country (or for that matter, in Australia or New Zealand) where significant numbers of children are showing any interest in the instrument?

 

By the way, whilst on this topic, I've noticed significant numbers of "revival" concertina players and organizations or workshops in all the obvious countries like the US UK Ireland Australia and South Africa....but none in New Zealand to speak of. Have I missed something there? My growing compilation of "sightings" there shows an amazing number of Anglo and German concertina players for social dances in the instrument's heyday (1860s to about 1910)....more sightings even than neighboring Australia, which has a rich supply of its own. I've seen no significant folkloric recordings of old concertina players in NZ, or any modern clubs/workshops for concertinas, which seems a pity given their history of quite virulent Anglo use. Am I missing something?

 

Cheers,

Dan

Edited by Dan Worrall
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Before anyoone looks to me for an answer to the last bit; I don't have anything to do with the folk 'scene' so haven't a clue. Never met another concertina player of any system in 3 years in Nz, though.

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In Ireland, those of us who have been to Willie Clancy (or, I suppose, Eigse Mrs Crotty in previous years, though I never made it to that) will remember the large numbers of children in their concertina classes; Peter Laban has posted some beautiful photos of some of them on the main c.net site.

 

I've been thinking that participation by children is a really good gauge of how vibrant a concertina-playing culture there is in a country. Workshops I have been to in the US (Button Box, and our own at Palestine) and the UK (Bradfield and Whitney) are mainly attended by people in their 50s and 60s (like me!). Am I missing some events in either country (or for that matter, in Australia or New Zealand) where significant numbers of children are showing any interest in the instrument?

 

Cheers,

Dan

 

With the Dublin Irish Festival starting this weekend here in central Ohio this weekend, I am reminded of the last time Bob was up here with a booth for his concertinas. While their was no concertina workshops, concertina playing children often stopped by his booth to try instruments. Several were quite good.

 

Alan

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Growing up in New Zealand I only once saw a concertina. Walking back to the car on a rainy evening after the Friday night shopping (this was a big event back then, the shops closed on Friday night until Monday morning) in about 1959 I remember hearing an interesting sound. We turned into a dark street and under a solitary street light was a small Sally Army choir, 6 or 8 people accompanied by a you know what. Iwas fascinated and stopped to listen, only to be firmly yanked away by my mother. They were, you know, the wrong denomination. Not as bad as Catholic of course. I never saw another one with the Sallies, only brass instruments. I have examined the memory but there is not enough for a diagnosis; Anglo, English or duet.

 

The next time I saw a concertina was late in the folk revival, wielded by English singer John Sutherland, that one was an English. Saw a couple in a museum on the West Coast, they were Lachenals, and a friend turned up with one in a bucket (something had to hold it together) once. So almost no sightings at all.

 

More recently I know of only one player of Irish music in NZ, and come to think of it she's an Australian. Cathy Custy also lives there. For an instrument that might have once been common they have disappeared entirely from the public consciousness. Unlike Australia where they were once ubiquitous, almost entirely Anglos, and still remembered by many.

 

I can offer a couple of possible suggestions as to why they might have been forgotten in NZ and not in Australia. The settling people were very different. Very few Irish in NZ, and very different aspirations in the settlements. A long conversation , that one, and I won't start it here, its too late at night...

 

regs

 

Chris

Edited by Chris Ghent
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I can offer a couple of possible suggestions as to why they might have been forgotten in NZ and not in Australia. The settling people were very different. Very few Irish in NZ, and very different aspirations in the settlements. A long conversation , that one, and I won't start it here, its too late at night...

 

regs

 

Chris

Hi Chris,

You are correct, the vast majority of Kiwis came from England, Scotland and Wales. But then, the same is exactly true in Australia...they were similar, from what documentation I see (Irish ancestry is only 9% in Australia).

 

Both countries had vast numbers of concertina players during the heyday, and in both countries the concertinas were being played predominantly for polkas, waltzes, mazurkas, varsoviennes, and quadrilles....not Irish jigs and reels. Of the two countries, only in Oz has this playing survived or been revived.

 

My own guess is that, when the 'folk revival' swept the world in the 50s and 60s, there was a critical mass problem. Ireland barely had enough concertina players to be noticed. England had only Scan Tester, William Kimber and a tiny handful of others. Australia had a half dozen or so living players, who were recorded. NZ, being smaller, just didn't have that, or of course the alternate thought is that they just didn't get their revival act going in time there, while there were still some living remnant players around to record. For whatever reason, NZ folk music today seems to be based on guitar-and-vocal songs about the good old days in NZ...not revivals of the old dance music that was played, at least not on the concertina.

 

Back in the day, though, they were crazy about dancing in NZ, just as they were in Australia and Ireland and elsewhere, and they very much appreciated the music of a concertina, sometimes with a whistle or banjo or a fiddle. I'll give you a sample account, from an 1878 working class sawmill town on South Island. This is not the Hamptons or Warwick or wherever, but nonetheless they took their socializing seriously; one must read through the gushy verse, perhaps written by someone's hyperactive parent. The facts are that a concertina, banjo and a whistle (no guitars, mind you) were all they needed for sixty couples to dance, with of course no amplification. Not our wimpy evening contras and ceilis of today, mind you...these dances lasted all night long, quite literally; they danced until sun-up. The facts are basically similar in dance after recorded dance; in many the concertina played for dances all night, alone (Dooley Chapman in Oz mentions doing that). A pity none of the NZ players survived to be recorded, and even more is the pity that not many in NZ seem to want to re-establish some of this...as a group of committed folks has done in Oz.

 

The original was in verse...sorry, I couldn't get this software to accept the punctuation. I've cut a few bits out, to spare you some of the gushy-est bits. Hope you enjoy it.

 

Cheers,

Dan

 

One glorious night in April at the Hall, The new Town Hall in Havelock, there was held The noble Foresters' Annual Ball, And oftentimes a burst of music swelled Upon the quiet-night, inviting those Who loved music and beauty to the dance Where they could skip about with kid-clad toes, And bask in beauty's ever loving glance. .....The Hall was decorated bright and gay And sixty couples danced upon its floor ..... Wild, high, and shrill the well-played whistle rose, The concertina and the old banjo, Starting the dancers as you may suppose, Who marked the time with light fantastic toe! I heard the M.C's. firm commanding voice Guiding dancers through the intricate maze ; I saw how youth and beauty did rejoice, My eyes grew dim with the most brilliant blaze Of gorgeous lamps and brightly flashing eyes And therefore could not see which was the belle; Salvo pudore every lady vies. So if I knew I should not like to tell— At twelve o'clock a table richly spread By host Dorreen who does the thing in style, Was surrounded with lovely ladies.... Thus gleefully their supper they began, Those happy gents and gentle ladies fair. Then once again with vigour unimpaired, Those joyous people did renew the dance. It was a jolly time they all declared, But one whole night was not a circumstance ; As morn drew nigh and noisy chanticleers Crowed their loud joy to greet the coming day, Then stern fatigue o'er took the gentle dears . That whilom were so bounceable and gay; So the broad daylight ended the glad ball, Where all was peace, concord and pure delight, And the gay dancers left the new Town Hall In which they danced so merrily all night.

Edited by Dan Worrall
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"You are correct, the vast majority of Kiwis came from England, Scotland and Wales. But then, the same is exactly true in Australia...they were similar, from what documentation I see (Irish ancestry is only 9% in Australia)."

 

Dan,

 

you have so obviously done your homework, and I don't mean the phrase above, all the rest rings true also. I am stunned to hear my own country may have as rich a past in concertinas as Australia, and wish I hadn't missed it. NZ has always been a small country and the phrase critical mass rings true as an explanation for many aspects of the story.

 

As regards the phrase above, while the immigration figures might be similar, Irish immigrants have made a substantial contribution to Australia. It is a much more Roman Catholic past here, whereas NZ is more Protestant. But my real point (the conversation I alluded to in my last post) about the different cultures and why a particular country might react differently even given similar immigration figures, is that the difference between the two countries was in early days one of aspirations. The NZ colony was a Victorian utopian middle class project, which would have seen moving away from folk based entertainment as a priority. Pretending things never happened (the war, the depression, Maori dispossession etc) is a national habit. Add low-brow dances to the list...

 

Thanks for the verse, interesting. I wish I had time to put some research into concertinas in NZ now, you have whetted my appetite. I hope yours goes well. Do you have many photos? I posted one here on the forum a few years ago, of a British trooper at parihake in the 1860s or so.

 

regs

 

Chris

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Hi Chris,

You are correct, the vast majority of Kiwis came from England, Scotland and Wales. But then, the same is exactly true in Australia...they were similar, from what documentation I see (Irish ancestry is only 9% in Australia).

 

I'll challenge that!

9% is suspiciously like the "Irish ancestry claimed" ticked box from the most recent census, divided into the gross population number.

 

It is more like 1/3 of Ozzis have Irish ancestry. To find a country with a greater percentage of Irish ancestry one would have to go to ... Ireland.

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Hi Chris,

You are correct, the vast majority of Kiwis came from England, Scotland and Wales. But then, the same is exactly true in Australia...they were similar, from what documentation I see (Irish ancestry is only 9% in Australia).

I'll challenge that!

9% is suspiciously like the "Irish ancestry claimed" ticked box from the most recent census, divided into the gross population number.

 

It is more like 1/3 of Ozzis have Irish ancestry. To find a country with a greater percentage of Irish ancestry one would have to go to ... Ireland.

The two figures could both be "right", in different ways.

 

Perhaps only 9% of the ancestors of today's Australians came from Ireland, but with intermarriage over several generations, 1/3 of today's Aussies have Irish ancestors? And I certainly hope that these figures aren't excluding the aboriginal population.

 

One dissimilarity is that NZ was never a prison colony. But then the British didn't just ship Irish prisoners to Australia, but plenty of their own countrymen (and women), as well.

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The two figures could both be "right", in different ways.

 

Perhaps only 9% of the ancestors of today's Australians came from Ireland, but with intermarriage over several generations, 1/3 of today's Aussies have Irish ancestors? And I certainly hope that these figures aren't excluding the aboriginal population.

 

One dissimilarity is that NZ was never a prison colony. But then the British didn't just ship Irish prisoners to Australia, but plenty of their own countrymen (and women), as well.

 

The net amount of Irish blood in the veins of the Australian population can have only one answer. The 9% concurs with the answer given on the most recent census, where one had to choose ancestry. The census measures how people "self-identify" not what their actual ancestral bloodline is. (More people chose the generic "Australian" than chose "Irish")

The Government of Eire (erronously or no) states that the Australian population is "30% Irish". Their methodology I don't have to hand.

The aboriginal population is 2-3% of the Australian population, thus Jim's hopes on that significant block of genetics being included is really nothing to worry about, as the final answer isn't likely to be accurate to within 2-3%, never mind the minute percentage of that percentage that carries Irish blood.

Australia was established as a penal colony. Though Jim is the first person I have ever come accross who has intimated (even though perhaps unintentionally) that the British justice system of the day was in any way biased toward transporting Irish.

165,000 convicts were transported to Australia, (over some 8 decades) making them only a (large) minority of the population anyway.

Then in the late 1860's early 1870's the population tripled, with a bulk of arriving immigrants having departed from the USA.

 

New Zealand however, isn't let off having a convict content in their blood. Immigration from Australia was not insignificant, example: The bulk of the Hamilton district was settled by Australians, soldier settlers who fought the Maori wars. (All you Hamilton/Cambridge residents, investigate the birthplace of your great-great-great-grandparents, nyeh nyeh nyeh)

 

The concertina connection in all this? .....?....? umm... I'm getting out of my area of expertise and resorting to dumb guesses if I start saying things like "whatever musical instruments were played is more to do with availability, ie what was sitting on the shelf in the shops"

Edited by Torres Strait Anglo
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Well, the 9% indeed is from census data. At the same time, 36% or so said their ancestry was Australian....so yes, the number is low, as some of those claiming "Australian" ancestry undoubtedly came from Ireland. The issue is how to unravel it all. THe Irish government may claim 30%, but it is not necessarily correct! The best attempt I have seen to estimate that is on this Bureau of Australian Statistics site:

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/Pr...;num=&view=

 

Go to table 4, and you will see that in 1986, the census asked about ancestry, and about 46% said either English, Irish, Scottish, British, English-Irish, Australian-ENglish, English-scottish. A bit of a hash, which the Bureau summarizes simply as "Anglo-Celtic". But, of these only two percent or so called themselves 'Irish', and only two percent said 'Scottish.' Another 19% said simply "Australian". So to go to their analysis:

 

"This attempt to get Australians to nominate their ancestry showed that over 46 per cent classed themselves as 'Anglo-Celtic', including a considerable number of English, Irish and Scottish mix. To these might be added most who called themselves simply 'Australian'. This gives an 'Anglo-Australian' total of about two-thirds of the population. One mystery in the figures is the low percentage prepared to call themselves Irish or Scottish. It is probable that many of these preferred to be Australian, as calculations by Dr Charles Price, the leading expert in ethnic composition, estimated that 17 per cent of the population were of Irish and 12 per cent of Scottish descent in 1988. The figures for other ancestries, including small groups, were much closer to Dr Price's estimates. It seems from the 1986 figures that Australians of British or Irish descent, who make up by far the largest component of the population, do not attach much significance to their ancestry, while those from non-British minorities are more precise. This, at least, is what common sense would suggest. It is also clear that those who decry the term 'Anglo-Celtic' are overlooking a large part of the population which does descend from mixtures of the English, Scottish and Irish settlers of the past."

 

I highlighted their analysis of the Irish and Scottish.....a best guess is 17 percent Irish, 12 percent Scottish, and presumably then 35 or 36% English.

That is in keeping with those who have studied the dances, and the repertoire of the old concertina players.....they did polkas, mazurkas, galops, quadrilles, waltzes--and not so much jigs and reels. Similar to the mix in England and in South Africa--and not what you see typically in Ireland, where jigs and reels (and hornpipes) are predominant in players repertoires. New Zealand, apparently, was quite similar.

 

Chris, to answer your question, I have only a few photos for NZ...and the one you posted of the troops is a significant one, thanks. Like Ireland, they weren't snapping too many photos there back then. But there is a richness of written sources. I am still working on the overall 'Anglo History' book...Australia is in progress; England, Germany, NZ and Africa are done. Ireland, the US, and the sailors' story are in front of me for revision. This post was a ping to see what anyone out there might think about the current lack of players in NZ, before I draw a wrong conclusion...so thanks all for the feedback. I'm grateful to all who have helped and are helping me, in various ways. Should be wrapping up this book project this fall.

Cheers,

Dan

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....about the current lack of players in NZ....

 

I would be interested to know your evidence for the above statement, Dan.

 

I have had a number of concertinas in for repair from NZ over the years, and when I lived there back in the 1970s it was not that unusual to see concertinas at folk clubs and festivals; some of those players have passed on or may no longer be active, but I can think of a few who still play, though they may not have a direct descenency from a NZ musical tradition. But not necessarily playing Irish music either....

 

MC

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....about the current lack of players in NZ....

 

I would be interested to know your evidence for the above statement, Dan.

 

I have had a number of concertinas in for repair from NZ over the years, and when I lived there back in the 1970s it was not that unusual to see concertinas at folk clubs and festivals; some of those players have passed on or may no longer be active, but I can think of a few who still play, though they may not have a direct descenency from a NZ musical tradition. But not necessarily playing Irish music either....

 

MC

Hi Malcolm,

 

Well, planting this thread was an effort to scare some up....and the scarcity is echoed by the replies of Dirge and Chris Ghent, above.

 

I've done a fair bit of searching for evidence of current activity there. In most places, an active concertina community is evident through workshops, festivals, clubs, builders and the like. I've searched....and not found much. There are individual concertina players almost anywhere, especially ones playing Irish music a la the global celtic music rage of the last few decades. That isn't particularly what I was looking for, although it is of course of interest in itself. I was--and am--looking for any players in New Zealand with clear links to a past strong tradition of dance music there. It was pretty amazing in the late nineteenth century there. Not only the settlers, but the Maoris too were entertained by the Anglo, and used it in multitudes of rural social dances. From what I see, the mix of dances was like that in Australia....not the jigs and reels of todays celtic revival so much (though they were there), but the polkas schottisches mazurkas and quadrilles of the nineteenth century ballroom dance craze. If you know of players in that vein, or for that matter know of players who indeed form some sort of New Zealand community of concertina playing of any type, I'd be very interested to hear of them ( you could send me a PM). It is not from a complete lack of effort that I don't know of any!

 

I would imagine, from what I do know, that the situation might be a bit like it is here in the southern US. There were no surviving players recorded anywhere here in the US, and we too had a reasonably strong tradition of concertina use back in the instrument's heyday (though not nearly as strong as NZ or Australia). Everyone here that I know got into the global concertina revival as individuals through their interest in either following Irish or English music; a few individuals have since looked back to the American past; most not. In the southern US we were quite disconnected individuals, separated by long distance and with no local traditions. The difference is that we now have at least a few activities (the Palestine workshop is one) and builders (Herrington, Tedrow) that raise the level of community enough that a web search would show a pulse. I'm looking for that at least that kind of pulse in New Zealand. It has too nice a past to just overlook it.

 

Cheers,

Dan

 

Cheers,

Dan

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The difference is that we now have at least a few activities (the Palestine workshop is one) and builders (Herrington, Tedrow) that raise the level of community enough that a web search would show a pulse. I'm looking for that at least that kind of pulse in New Zealand.

One thing about isolated players is that it may not occur to them that their are others, much less a "community" to connect with. I know that was true of a number of American players that were discovered in the 1970's... one in Texas, one in Minnesota, etc. Each had thought that he/she was the only concertina player in the entire country, and it hadn't occurred to them to hunt for others.

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Dan,

 

This article mentions a few points of interest.

 

Of the people mentioned, not sure if Phil Garland plays concertina (I think his brother did), and Bill Worsfold certainly does (a sometime member here). I'm sure that both these people would be willing and able to add considerably to your research.

 

Good luck,

MC

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Dan,

 

This article mentions a few points of interest.

 

Of the people mentioned, not sure if Phil Garland plays concertina (I think his brother did), and Bill Worsfold certainly does (a sometime member here). I'm sure that both these people would be willing and able to add considerably to your research.

 

Good luck,

MC

Thanks Malcolm.

 

I had seen that article before, but only scanned it. It paints a pretty bleak picture of collecting efforts there: basically, too little too late although there were some few dedicated folks giving it a try--most of them song collectors. They seem never to have got a big push off the ground, and for the concertina it is of course too late now for on the spot informants---the real heyday with dancing ended nearly a century ago.

 

But, in re-reading it, a see a brief reference that Phil Garland had met a few instrumentalists, including concertina players, whilst collecting in the 60s. Great! I had missed that before. I'll follow up with him.

Cheers,

Dan

ps. Jim, I was one of those Texas players you mentoned. As isolated as they ever came!

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....about the current lack of players in NZ....

 

I would be interested to know your evidence for the above statement, Dan.

 

MC

 

So...to put this to bed, I heard back from Phil Garland. He reiterates my statement nicely. He knows one (1) concertinist in NZ now, playing Irish music. Those few he saw in the 60s and 70s were folk revivalists using English concertinas for English folk song accompaniment. No anglos (which is what was mostly what was played in the old days for the dances).

 

So...a dead tradition, with no survivors of the 1860s-WWI heyday who were recorded by folkies during the folk revival of the 50s and 60s, as they were in England, Ireland, and Australia...my contention, now confirmed. In addition to his singing and collecting around the country, Phil has been holding dances with his 'Bush Telegraph' group for 35 years now. If anyone should know, it is Phil.

 

Cheers,

Dan

Edited by Dan Worrall
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well Dan we've had revivals of tunes etc based on documents and tune books, lots of scope for the anglo so needn't be total death just a hiatus. It's up to NZ players to forge the next movement

 

 

You can take some water out of a river, freeze it then thaw it and put it back and it's still part of the flow isn't it !?

 

Cheers

Mike

Edited by michael sam wild
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