'Irish Traditional Music'

[Rod]

Can anyone explain to me the reason why an instrument as versatile as the Anglo Concertina appears to me to be so disproportionately associated with Irish Traditional Music ? ( Perhaps my perception wrong. ) Did the Irish play any particularly significant role in the invention, subsequent development or manufacture of the instrument before taking it to their hearts ?

[tombilly]

That's simple to answer! It's because Irish Trad is great music and lots of people want to play it - fiddle, box, flute, whistle, pipes, banjo or concertina - take your pick. I believe the Anglo is the choice as far as concertinas go because it was historically cheaper and more widely available than other systems.

[michael sam wild]

See Dan Worrall's article on concertina in Ireland on history topic thread.

[hjcjones]

It all depends what you mean by "disproportionately associated" with Irish Traditional Music. It is perhaps disproportionately represented on this forum.

 

In terms of general perceptions of ITM and the numbers of players of different instruments, the concertina probably comes a long way down the list behind fiddle, flute or whistle, pipes, banjo, bouzouki, etc. My own experience of playing in sessions in England is that I have come across very few Irish-style anglo players, although I have found rather more EC players playing Irish music. My personal experience is that the Anglo concertina here is more associated with English dance music and morris. In France, I believe people's first assocation of the instrument is with clowns.

 

I think you get a slightly distorted picture from this forum. ITM has become very popular all round the world and many people (not just of Irish extraction) are interested in playing it. Of those, only a minority are interested in playing it on concertina, but they will nearly always choose Anglo because this was traditionally the type used, for the reasons already given, and it brings a specific character to the music.

 

These musicians are also appear to be very interested in particular styles, and in playing a particular way, so you get detailed discussions about the "correct" fingering for certain notes and phrases, and playing things exactly the way a particular teacher recommends. I don't see the same applying to other styles of music, where people are interested in general technique but seem more interested in developing their own personal style of playing.

 

So to summarise, amongst players of Irish music concertina players are probably a small minority, but almost all are anglo players. On this forum, probably the majority (or at least the most active majority) play ITM, but whether that is truly representative of anglo players generally is another matter - I know of many English-style players who aren't on here, for example. It is possible that many players of other styles don't bother with this site because of the emphasis on ITM.

[Guest Peter Laban]

I wouldn't agree with that, particularly in recent years the concertina has boomed mightily in Ireland. If classes during for example the Willie Clancy week are anything to go by anyway. These days there are concertina players everywhere and of high quality too. This was not the case say, twenty years ago.

 

I don't know about 'disproportionately', I don think Irish music is hardly discussed much seriously on this forum, which is fine, despite what some people may say. Hardly any Irish players I know use or visit this forum.

[Frank Edgley]

"These musicians are also appear to be very interested in particular styles, and in playing a particular way, so you get detailed discussions about the "correct" fingering for certain notes and phrases, and playing things exactly the way a particular teacher recommends. I don't see the same applying to other styles of music, where people are interested in general technique but seem more interested in developing their own personal style of playing."

 

This does seem to be the case. I have even known a musician who, years ago, started wearing a beard and hair style a la Noel Hill. This is a bit like Elvis impersonators. When someone in music gets popular, some try to imitate him or her. It's my contention that instead of trying to be a lesser imitation of another player, I would prefer to take bits & pieces of a number of different players and come up with a style that is my own.

[Bill N]

Can anyone explain to me the reason why an instrument as versatile as the Anglo Concertina appears to me to be so disproportionately associated with Irish Traditional Music ? ( Perhaps my perception wrong. ) Did the Irish play any particularly significant role in the invention, subsequent development or manufacture of the instrument before taking it to their hearts ?

 

It's interesting to look at Newfoundland in this light. Their culture and traditional music are heavily influenced by the large numbers of Irish immigrants who settled there (mostly prior to the popularization of the concertina), and their relative isolation until well into the 20th century created a bit of a cultural time capsule. Concertina is almost unknown. I know of only 2 professional traditional musicians (1, originally from Ireland, plays English, his son plays Anglo) who play concertina there, and other than them, I've never seen a concertina at a session. Accordions handle the free reed duty(I've been told that this is a 20th century development), with lots of support from fiddles and various stringed instruments. Flutes also seem relatively rare compared to ITM sessions I've attended in "Upper Canada". Pretty much the same music, but a different proportion of instruments.

[Lawrence Reeves]

I guess my two cents are as follows. In Ireland specially county Clare the music has been a continuous tradition. It was played in the houses, and socially way before the advent of pub session, and recording super stars. Irish trad today is unique in that world wide one can find people playing it, and it is very much cross cultural. Not only associated with immigrant families and communities, but people that are drawn to it. Now for the concertina. It was commonly found as a community instrument in many homes, as was the fiddle. All members of the family were exposed to it, and in some ways it is easy to pick up and play a recognizable melody ( no slagging ). The next thing I would point out is that there are good makers in all price ranges currently. Uilleann pipe makers and concert flute makers have truly come into their own by making specialty instruments to fill the needs of musicians. If there were no new makers, or repairers of vintage instruments the new players would have no resource. If the internet did not exist, information and historical data would be much more difficult to find. I started playing Irish trad music before the days of forums and big workshops. I had to listen, ask questions, practice the art of learning music from following a trail of older players in the U.S. and Ireland. 1982 in April, I found few session in Dublin that were open to "tourist" players, but once in the door I found myself very welcomed. These were the days of Planxty, and the Bothy Band, and other recorded artists forging a pathway for this music to become accepted in ireland as legitimate. The show band days were tough to break in with reels and jigs. I also spent time wandering the Gaeltachts listening to sean nos singers, and immersing myself into the culture. The fact is I was a geek or culchie by the standard of most of the Irish in the non Gaeltacht areas. Today by contrast, the entire scene in Ireland and worldwide is all about who you learned from, what recordings some sets of tunes are on,etc. Irish traditional music is still a folk art, but it has been polished to such a level as to be cool, and enticing. Concertinas are probaly no more popular than bouzoukis( thanks Johnny Moynihan), or pipes, or concert flutes in the big picture. Internet resources for the pipes are great, thanks to na bPiobari Uilleann, and local clubs worldwide. We concertina players only have this resource( no official club, or foundation), and summer schools to use as social gatherings to share knowledge.

[yankeeclipper]

In France, I believe people's first assocation of the instrument is with clowns.

Ah, quelle perspicacité!

[david fabre]

In France, I believe people's first assocation of the instrument is with clowns.

Ah, quelle perspicacité!

 

Perfectly right.

I should add that second association is with Popeye the sailorman.

 

(although I'm not even sure he actually played it in any cartoon)

[Fergus_fiddler]

Can anyone explain to me the reason why an instrument as versatile as the Anglo Concertina appears to me to be so disproportionately associated with Irish Traditional Music ? ( Perhaps my perception wrong. ) Did the Irish play any particularly significant role in the invention, subsequent development or manufacture of the instrument before taking it to their hearts ?

 

I'm afraid your information is quite incomplete. Anglo is a more complete instruments in other styles - ragtime, morris - AND NOT ONLY -, etc... - that is in irish music. Simply, irish music is in fashion nowadays, for pleasure of a lot and displeasure of others, like myself, that during years didn't realized we were playing 'CELTIC ' music.

 

Undoubtly, irish music is guilty about the ridiculous prizes anglo vintage concertinas reached in the last years. Good old vintage instruments have always been reasonably expensive, I only wish that greedy 'investors' have nothing to eat but bellows next years when prizes - I wish - go back to their original place.

 

To the forum: No replies, please. This is my opinion, opine wathever your nice political correctness dictates you. I'm light years far from that, fortunately...

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

[david_boveri]

there is no good reason that irish musicians seem to drive the market, other than we bought more of them and wanted to pay more than other people. the irish traditional music scene is very strong compared to some other folk music traditions that use the anglo concertina. also, the concertina long ago was eclipsed by the accordion. even in irish music, it is much easier to find someone who plays the accordion than the concertina.

 

one thing to consider is the price of the instruments--back in the heyday of the concertina, so to speak, people all over the world bought the cheap, german-made concertinas and squeezed them until the broke. then, as popularity declined, so did the price of the quality instruments. after the silver flute was invented, the rich hobbyists and orchestral players pawned off their outdated wooden flutes, which were bought by the irish. likewise, as the price dropped for anglo concertinas, the irish bought them as well, taking the instruments no one else wanted. i know people who bought their jeffries' anglos in pawn shops in london for as little as 50 pounds twenty years ago. so, 20 or 30 years ago, irish players could get the best hand-made concertinas in the world for 100 times less than they go now.

 

i do not think that the instrument is better realized in other traditions, though i do contend that in irish music we do not play it as it was designed to be played by the original makers. however, this may be why it survived... in other traditions where chords and ensemble playing was more integral, the concertina was not as loud and the accordion made an easier go at complex chording. however, in irish music even when we play together, we play as if we are all playing by ourselves (if that makes sense), and we value melody over chord, and thus play our concertinas chiefly as melodic instruments, and treat our accordions very much the same.

 

there are still more people who play the accordion in irish music, and dont worry... if you think our debates about fingering are incessant, you should see debates on which style and tuning of accordion to use!

[Fergus_fiddler]

This does seem to be the case. I have even known a musician who, years ago, started wearing a beard and hair style a la Noel Hill. This is a bit like Elvis impersonators. When someone in music gets popular, some try to imitate him or her. It's my contention that instead of trying to be a lesser imitation of another player, I would prefer to take bits & pieces of a number of different players and come up with a style that is my own.

 

I agree totally with you. Many years ago, when I began to learn to play ITM, there were around a lot of imitators, say, playing flute; who tried to carbon copy Matt Molloy. I was amazed , and asked: Why? You've already the real Molloy; try to develope your own way.

 

Nowadays, I get more and more tired about sessions with hormoned teenagers playing at 200 mph. tunes - of course, mostly reels - that are not even traditional, ie. composed by Flook or arrangement/sets a la Lúnasa.

 

OTOH, I don't really think there's a 'correct' fingering for the 'tina, as well as I don't think there's a correct bowing for fiddle: The only important thing, at the end of the day, is if it sounds well or not.

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

[michael sam wild]

....So to summarise, amongst players of Irish music concertina players are probably a small minority, but almost all are anglo players. On this forum, probably the majority (or at least the most active majority) play ITM, but whether that is truly representative of anglo players generally is another matter - I know of many English-style players who aren't on here, for example. It is possible that many players of other styles don't bother with this site because of the emphasis on ITM.

 

I don't see or hear too many concertina players in sessions but in Ireland it is now very popular. We get very few Irish players on this site and as for many English music players they don't seem to bother too much. Is this because of ITM representation or general lack of interest, or 'been there heard it all before

 

I know quite a few 'lurk' but say nowt, and where are the pros on this forum, too busy with all the work and practice?

Edited July 24, 2009 by michael sam wild

[chiton1]

Can anyone explain to me the reason why an instrument as versatile as the Anglo Concertina appears to me to be so disproportionately associated with Irish Traditional Music ? ( Perhaps my perception wrong. ) Did the Irish play any particularly significant role in the invention, subsequent development or manufacture of the instrument before taking it to their hearts ?

 

I'm afraid your information is quite incomplete. Anglo is a more complete instruments in other styles - ragtime, morris - AND NOT ONLY -, etc... - that is in irish music. Simply, irish music is in fashion nowadays, for pleasure of a lot and displeasure of others, like myself, that during years didn't realized we were playing 'CELTIC ' music.

 

Undoubtly, irish music is guilty about the ridiculous prizes anglo vintage concertinas reached in the last years. Good old vintage instruments have always been reasonably expensive, I only wish that greedy 'investors' have nothing to eat but bellows next years when prizes - I wish - go back to their original place.

 

To the forum: No replies, please. This is my opinion, opine wathever your nice political correctness dictates you. I'm light years far from that, fortunately...

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

 

Whoo no replies! My hands are itching to give some firm replies to your ´´not so nice, politically not very correct´´ opinions. But see I wont, as you are light years away from us you probably would never get the message in time.

[Anglo-Irishman]

Irish trad today is unique in that world wide one can find people playing it, and it is very much cross cultural. Not only associated with immigrant families and communities, but people that are drawn to it.

 

"Unique" is too categorical claim!

 

What about tango amongst the Bandoneonistas worldwide? Or Bluegrass among European string players? Or flamenco for the guitarists? How many military units in the Near and Middle East have pipe bands? Polish polkas on Chemnitzers in the US(now that is cross-cultural!)?

 

The Global Village has many musical genres.

 

Cheers,

John

[david_boveri]

Irish trad today is unique in that world wide one can find people playing it, and it is very much cross cultural. Not only associated with immigrant families and communities, but people that are drawn to it.

 

"Unique" is too categorical claim!

 

What about tango amongst the Bandoneonistas worldwide? Or Bluegrass among European string players? Or flamenco for the guitarists? How many military units in the Near and Middle East have pipe bands? Polish polkas on Chemnitzers in the US(now that is cross-cultural!)?

 

The Global Village has many musical genres.

 

Cheers,

John

 

i think he meant unique as in "it is unique to find so many drawn to something so boring."

 

seriously, as an irish music fanatic, i sometimes wonder why anyone who wasnt born into it would ever pay it any attention.

[JimLucas]

Irish trad today is unique in that world wide one can find people playing it, and it is very much cross cultural. Not only associated with immigrant families and communities, but people that are drawn to it.

"Unique" is too categorical claim!

 

What about tango amongst the Bandoneonistas worldwide? Or Bluegrass among European string players? Or flamenco for the guitarists? How many military units in the Near and Middle East have pipe bands? Polish polkas on Chemnitzers in the US(now that is cross-cultural!)?

 

The Global Village has many musical genres.

Absolutely!

E.g., there are all those folks who play (and sing) Bach, Haydn, and other "classical" traditions.

 

And they are definitely "traditions", in the sense that they are passed on from one generation of musicians to the next. The music may all be written down, but I don't believe there's a single serious player who hasn't learned from someone who was a player before him/her.