anglo keyboard (re)design

[JimLucas]

In a thread in the General Discussion subForum relating to 38-button vs. 30-button preferences, Chris Ghent raised the issue of what notes one might want on additional buttons beyond the core 30. This has been discussed before, though not recently, and it seems likely to elicit a lot of responses, so I thought it deserved its own Topic. That's what I'm starting here.

 

To start things off, I've quoted below my response to Chris' post in the other thread, including his comments that I responded to. I look forward to a lively discussion.

 

The extra buttons on a 38 key seem like a lovely thing, but as a player of Irish music the notes they bring do not make sense, and of course they were created for an entirely different canon. Some time ago I attempted to enlist help to decide on extra notes which would be an asset in Irish music with a view to creating a layout which was not so extensive, perhaps only 34 keys as a compromise on weight and room, but with every key being right on the money. Another way of putting this is, what would people put there now if there was no historical flywheel? I could not find anybody ready to offer an opinion. So let me try again. If you could have two more buttons on each side at the head of two of the rows what would they be..?

 

On the left side I see the F#, the E/F, and the C buttons as contenders. On the right the F# and ?

Ah, Chris, you're inviting us into a minefield. So let me add some sniper fire.

 

As a start, I have a low F# on the RHS second button accidental row and this has shown me the handiness of a note situated well away from its peers.

But isn't that what the English system is all about?

 

What else from the LHS would work on the right? What if the two RHS side buttons were a low E/F reversed, and a low C/F#. And if the left buttons were a high F#/C# and what else?

And if you're really proposing to depart from the "historical flywheel", as you put it, why not also make changes in the "core" 30 buttons, or at least in the "accidental" row?

 

But I recommend that if we're going to start discussing keyboard (re)design again (it has been a while since the last thread on this subject), we start a new Topic, preferably in the Instrument Construction & Repair subForum.

 

Oh, never mind, I'll do it myself.

And so I have done.

 

Edited to correct a typo.

Edited July 18, 2009 by JimLucas

[JimLucas]

To get things moving, here are a few of my own thoughts.

 

First, what I chose for my 30-button C/G Morse Ceili, which I liked as much in practice as I did in theory. These are changes to the standard Jeffries layout, which I feel have advantages over the standard layouts for both Irish-style melody playing and chordal playing styles.

Details:

• left hand G row: lowest pull note is low A, not D
  
  
• right hand G row: highest push note is F#, not B
  
  
• right hand 3rd row (push/pull): C#/C# F#/D# G#/G A/Bb C#/D
  
  

Advantages (in my opinion):

• the pull low A is especially useful for both D and F chords, while the D it replaces is still found conveniently in the C row; the A also provides an all-pull run (not chromatic) from low F up to Bb and B, complementing the all-push run from low G up to E above middle C
  
  
• I find it handy to have both C#'s on the same button, under the index finger; I already had a Jeffries with this modification (and with two D#'s on the next button) when I got it (and I was told that Noel Hill favors this variant, but I don't know that for sure)
  
  
• the two push F#'s (different octaves) in the right hand are very useful in both chords and runs, while I rarely if ever found a use for the push D# or the stratospheric B they replace. Do you?
  
  
• my high A and C# in the R.H. accidental row are reversed from the Jeffries standard; I find this to be more comfortable, as well as maintaining the general pattern of higher notes to the right of lower ones
  
  

In extending a standard 30-button layout, the most common addition I've seen is an F#/G# (push/pull) button in the left hand. I think the push F# is very useful, but I would be inclined to pair it with a pull E, which I would find much more useful than the G#. Similarly, most common in the right hand seems to be a button with a push F#, though the pull note is (in my experience) more variable.

 

Basically, I think it's helpful to have all the commonly used notes available in both directions. For contemporary Irish session music, that would mean all the notes of the G and D scales. Others, playing different kinds of music, might prefer to apply that concept to the scales of C and F.

 

What do the rest of you think?

[Peter]

After thinking this over quite a lot recently (first because of an aborted attempt at concertina construction and more lately due to an instrument I have on order) and have come to the conclusion that the perfect system (for me) is 30 buttons - Wheatstone layout. Extra buttons are nice and all but really they aren't necessary.

 

Oh well, that was my bucket of kerosene to the fire

[Frank Edgley]

That would be my choice also. My music choices would be limited to Irish, Scottish & Northumbrian. Others may have other needs. As Tim Collins said in a workshop I attended (to paraphrase) "The tunes we choose to play are largely influenced by the system we play and the fingering style we use."

[Dave Weinstein]

My preferred (and well, only) fingering system is linked below.

 

There are, to my knowledge, two of these in existence. And I have both of them.

[Rod]

That would be my choice also. My music choices would be limited to Irish, Scottish & Northumbrian. Others may have other needs. As Tim Collins said in a workshop I attended (to paraphrase) "The tunes we choose to play are largely influenced by the system we play and the fingering style we use."

 

But why restrict future possibilities needlessly ?

[Rod]

That would be my choice also. My music choices would be limited to Irish, Scottish & Northumbrian. Others may have other needs. As Tim Collins said in a workshop I attended (to paraphrase) "The tunes we choose to play are largely influenced by the system we play and the fingering style we use."

 

But why restrict future possibilities needlessly ?

 

On close analysis I find that there is only one button on my 36 button Anglo which I rarely, if ever, bring into play and I would now feel severely restricted to have access to only 30 buttons. Could it be that satisfaction with 30 buttons suggests a certain lack of the spirit of musical adventure ? I suppose much depends upon the chosen style of music.

[Frank Edgley]

That would be my choice also. My music choices would be limited to Irish, Scottish & Northumbrian. Others may have other needs. As Tim Collins said in a workshop I attended (to paraphrase) "The tunes we choose to play are largely influenced by the system we play and the fingering style we use."

 

But why restrict future possibilities needlessly ?

Often, it is the limitations of a system which force up to come up with creative solutions. These creative solutions can define a personal, distinctive style.

[Kelteglow]

Hi All I have modified a 30 button Anglo . It is a AC Norman Anglo Wheatstone layout .Now a 32 button .I had the A pull (L/H G row) changed to a low D (1 octave below pull D C Row) this gave me a ump to the pa D cord. I then had an extra button fitted above the Crow L/H giving f sharp push and low A pull. On the right hand (bottom of the C row) I have C sharp pull and F sharp push .I play I rish style and I try my hand at cord supported melody( Right and left hand )In the Irish style I use the L/H push F sharp and the R/H C sharp to give me a all push D scale.the low A and the R/H push F sharp don,t get use much but at the time of modification had to think of notes that might br usefull . ATB Bob

[david fabre]

As for me, I had the chance to learn on a 40 buttons. Among the extra buttons,

there are some which I use a lot. There are other ones I found unpractical,

and when sending the instrument for renovation I requested several modifications

to adapt it to what I needed.

I have posted a diagram of the present layout in my photo galery on myspace.

http://www.myspace.com/486930304

 

During the long separation while the instrument was sent on renovation, I was left with

a 30 button Stagi. On the one hand, I was frustrated not to have some of the buttons

i was used to and there were tunes I could not play any longer.

On the other hand, I discovered that in most cases i could still manage to play most of

what I wanted with a "restricted" 30b.

I also made a little layout modification on my 30b. it was initially Wheatstone layout and

I only changed three notes :

* pull D, bottom of G row, lowered to A.

* pull D#, left hand third row, raised to E.

* pull D# right hand third row (upper one) lowered to D.

(NB : actually the instrument is a G/D but I'm used to consider it as a transposing C/G.

the "true" notes are A lowered to E, Bb raised to B, Bb lowered to A)

 

The first change is a common one. The two other are more iconoclast. I have traded

the lower and higher D#s (but kept the middle one), for two more common notes that

were missing on the draw. Thus I lost some possibilities for playing in remote keys or

for tunes involving chromatic runs. On the other hand i have gained MUCH MORE versatility

to play in chorded style in common keys. The ability to play a "full" A chord on the draw is

specially useful. The higher D, placed on the same key as C#, is also very useful

to go up the scale in the key of D. I've seen that this choice coincides with that made by Jim

and described above.

 

I'm very happy with this choice and I would definitely recommand to any who is mostly interested

in playing chords in common keys. If I order a new 30 button I would definitely go for this.

 

Finally there are two last buttons on the standart wheatstone layout I would be ready to trade :

the upper ones on the inner and outer row. On my 40b I switched some of the upper reeds

to simplify the fingerings in the upper range, but actually I have not yet found a true utility to

this "stratospheric range". Trading these upper notes for alternative fingerings to lower ones

could be a good alternative but i have not yet made my mind on this.

Edited July 21, 2009 by david fabre

[Chris Ghent]

Does anyone have an opinion either way on the idea of putting alternate notes on the other side? ie. replicating the left side E/F button from the C row as a F/E on the right hand side at the index finger end of the C row.

 

Chris

[david fabre]

Does anyone have an opinion either way on the idea of putting alternate notes on the other side? ie. replicating the left side E/F button from the C row as a F/E on the right hand side at the index finger end of the C row.

 

Chris

 

On my 40b I have replicated notes on the other side (but not those you indicate).

I have a C# (pull) on the left and a Bb (pull) on the right and these are among

the extra buttons i use the most. Also a G# (pull) on the right.

 

 

See my layout there :

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?...mp;albumID=7068

[chris]

Hi

Just think, 8 more keys and you could have an 'English'

chris