Retuning to Concert Pitch

[saguaro_squeezer]

Hello.

 

I'm considering a brass-reed Lachenal 48 key treble. I haven't played it yet, but the seller said it was in 'old tuning.' I know that I would want concert pitch if I wanted to play (nicely) with others. I'd appreciate advice on the following questions:

 

How much would it cost to retune a concertina?

What, exactly, is 'old tuning'?

 

Thanks, in advance, for any help!

 

Rod

[Greg Jowaisas]

Hi Rod,

Old tuning can mean a variety of things. Standard pitch is a convention, an agreement, and even today A=440 is not an undisputed absolute standard. Before 1940 there were several widespread conventions with Continental pitch at higher than A=440 and lower Philharmonic pitch being the most popular. (OOPS! Got that confused! Continental or French pitch was LOWER; Philharmonic was HIGHER. See Stephen Chambers subsequent post and the excerpt from information I was using from wikapedia.)

 

In my experience that means a concertina tuned to "old pitch" can be anywhere from 30-70 cents sharp or flat of A=440.

That translates into roughly half of a semi-tone. Concertina reeds in good shape, that have not been extensively retuned or carelessly filed can usually make the journey of 1/2 a semi-tone.

 

Brass reeds need to be treated with extra care. They can show the effects of careless tuning very quickly and can break if not gently reset.

 

I can usually expect to spend 10 to 12 hours tuning and setting up an instrument that is 50-70 cents out of tune. That translates into $200-$250. for a retuning and set up. Often valve replacement is a necessity before tuning and pad replacement is a possibility and those are added costs.

 

Figure on less time and cost with an instrument that is closer to A=440 and when valves and pads are in good shape.

Then a "brush up" tuning might be in the $100. range.

 

Greg

Edited July 4, 2009 by Greg Jowaisas

[Stephen Chambers]

Before 1940 there were several widespread conventions with Continental pitch at higher than A=440 and lower Philharmonic pitch being the most popular.

Greg,

 

Did you get that the wrong way around?

 

The pitch commonly referred to as "Continental" (or "Paris Opera pitch") was A=435, so 20 cents flat of A=440, whilst most English concertinas were originally tuned to Old Philharmonic A=454, so about 50 cents sharp. New Philharmonic A=439 (4 cents flat) only started to become common from the late 1920s onwards, up until WW2, though I suppose instruments made specifically for the US market may have been tuned lower from an earlier date?

 

edited typo

Edited July 5, 2009 by Stephen Chambers

[Greg Jowaisas]

Hmm! Here (hear) is the info I was using from wikapedia:

 

The most vocal opponents of the upward tendency in pitch were singers, who complained that it was putting a strain on their voices. Largely due to their protests, the French government passed a law on February 16, 1859 which set the A above middle C at 435 Hz. This was the first attempt to standardize pitch on such a scale, and was known as the diapason normal. It became quite a popular pitch standard outside of France as well, and has also been known at various times as French pitch, continental pitch or international pitch (the last of these not to be confused with the 1939 "international standard pitch" described below).

 

The diapason normal resulted in middle C being tuned at approximately 258.65 Hz (info). An alternative pitch standard known as philosophical or scientific pitch, which fixed middle C at exactly 256 Hz (info) (that is, 28 Hz), and resulted in the A above it being tuned to approximately 430.54 Hz (info), gained some popularity due to its mathematical convenience (the frequencies of all the Cs being a power of two) [5]. This never received the same official recognition as A = 435 Hz, however, and was not as widely used.

 

British attempts at standardisation in the 19th century gave rise to the so-called old philharmonic pitch standard of about A = 452 Hz (different sources quote slightly different values), replaced in 1896 by the considerably "deflated" new philharmonic pitch at A = 439 Hz. The high pitch was maintained by Sir Michael Costa for the Crystal Palace Handel Festivals, causing the withdrawal of the principal tenor Sims Reeves in 1877,[6] though at singers' insistence the Birmingham Festival pitch was lowered (and the organ retuned) at that time. At the Queen's Hall in London, the establishment of the diapason normal for the Promenade Concerts in 1895 (and retuning of the organ to A = 439 at 15 °C (59 °F), to be in tune with A = 435.5 in a heated hall) caused the Royal Philharmonic Society and others (including the Bach Choir, and the Felix Mottl and Artur Nikisch concerts) to adopt the continental pitch thereafter.[7]

 

In 1939, an international conference recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz, now known as concert pitch. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 (and was reaffirmed by them in 1975) as ISO 16. The difference between this and the diapason normal is due to confusion over which temperature the French standard should be measured at. The initial standard was A = 439 Hz (info), but this was superseded by A = 440 Hz after complaints that 439 Hz was difficult to reproduce in a laboratory owing to 439 being a prime number.[8]

So in reviewing what I had too hastilly read (or became confused reading ) I thank Stephen for his gentle correction and have added the correction to my previous post.

 

Greg

 

Btw Stephen's information and translation of hertz into cents (sense) is consistent with what I have found in retuning over a hundred concertinas: 20-30 cents flat or 50-60 cents high with high pitch being more common in the examples I've seen.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Greg Jowaisas

[saguaro_squeezer]

Thanks Greg and Stephen. That was great information. Acoustics was one of my favorite subjects in college (how many years ago ...) and this makes cents to me

 

The seller said it was Lachenal #47838 which puts it around 1914. He also said that he had it worked on by someone on this forum. Greg, there's no chance that you're the guilty party, is there?

 

I really appreciate your responses

 

Rod

[Greg Jowaisas]

What part of the world is the instrument coming from, Rod? And please give me a description.

 

Greg

[saguaro_squeezer]

What part of the world is the instrument coming from, Rod? And please give me a description.

 

Greg

 

Greg,

 

It's a Lachenal 48key EC, brass reeds, bone buttons, rosewood ends. According to Tony's estimate, it needed a gusset patch on the bellows, a couple of worm holes patched, new thumbstrap and valves and pads. He allegedly had all of this done except a retune to CP ... which I'll have done if I buy it.

 

 

<Post edited to remove personal information>

 

Rod

Edited July 5, 2009 by rod_in_tucson

[Stephen Chambers]

Btw Stephen's information and translation of hertz into cents (sense) is consistent with what I have found in retuning over a hundred concertinas: 20-30 cents flat or 50-60 cents high with high pitch being more common in the examples I've seen.

Greg,

 

In America you'd probably come across Continental pitch (A=435) more frequently than I would, as I believe that pitch was more common there, whilst Old Philharmonic pitch (which tended to get sharper through the 19th century, so anywhere between A=450 and A=456) continued longer in the British Isles, though we had 3 other pitch "standards" too!

[Greg Jowaisas]

Yes, I remember Tony's instrument. I believe he bought it on eBay and asked me to make it playable at the least possible cost. This did not include tuning to A=440.

 

Greg

[Greg Jowaisas]

Btw Stephen's information and translation of hertz into cents (sense) is consistent with what I have found in retuning over a hundred concertinas: 20-30 cents flat or 50-60 cents high with high pitch being more common in the examples I've seen.

Greg,

 

In America you'd probably come across Continental pitch (A=435) more frequently than I would, as I believe that pitch was more common there, whilst Old Philharmonic pitch (which tended to get sharper through the 19th century, so anywhere between A=450 and A=456) continued longer in the British Isles, though we had 3 other pitch "standards" too!

 

The majority of the instruments I have bought and subsequently tuned have come from the UK. Occasionally a domestic repair job has been in low pitch but I have not followed up on the origins of those instruments. I'll be more attentive in the future!

 

One of the websites I visited talked about the rise in pitch convention throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. It sounded like there was a constant tug of war between the singers who favored low pitch to accomodate their voices and the instrumentalists who favored a "brighter" higher sound.

 

I currently have a very nice 28b Jeffries that came through Chris Algar. Chris thought it might have Salvation Army providence. It is in B/F# and its reed shoes seem original and untouched and are stamped consistent with that tuning.

Stangely it is about 25 cents low in pitch. So I suppose it was in continenal tuning.

 

Chris had sent it to me as an example of the best "Bb" instrument with untouched reeds he could find at the time. Since then I've found a great 38b Bb/F. Which leaves the dilemna of where the B/F# should be tuned.

 

Greg

[Stephen Chambers]

I currently have a very nice 28b Jeffries that came through Chris Algar. Chris thought it might have Salvation Army providence. It is in B/F# and its reed shoes seem original and untouched and are stamped consistent with that tuning.

Stangely it is about 25 cents low in pitch. So I suppose it was in continenal tuning.

Greg,

 

That sounds a bit odd, if he's right about the provenance, since Salvation Army Anglos are usually in Ab/Eb to go with their brass instruments, and those were still made in "High Pitch" right up until 1964 - they were hardly going to change them "overnight", with all that many!

 

Chris had sent it to me as an example of the best "Bb" instrument with untouched reeds he could find at the time. Since then I've found a great 38b Bb/F. Which leaves the dilemna of where the B/F# should be tuned.

I guess it would be perfect to go with a C# set of pipes then, but failing that, it would make a good C or D box (Bb/F or C/G) - if the reeds are good, it should take either.

 

Stephen's ... translation of hertz into cents (sense) is consistent with what I have found in retuning over a hundred concertinas: 20-30 cents flat or 50-60 cents high with high pitch being more common in the examples I've seen.

Old Philharmonic pitch ... tended to get sharper through the 19th century, so anywhere between A=450 and A=456

And that A=450 to A=456 translates into +40 to +60 cents.

[saguaro_squeezer]

Just to follow up, I did end up buying this instrument and am looking forward to Greg tuning it to concert pitch. If anyone can point me to some good brass-reed sound files, I'd be very grateful.

 

Sincerely,

 

Rod