Hereward Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 This is a sad news report: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090629/tuk-m...ol-6323e80.html Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Lawton Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 This is a sad news report: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090629/tuk-m...ol-6323e80.html Ian Yep.. PC gone mad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbones Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I wonder how many people would be offended if a group of black performers doing traditional entertainment painted their faces white? And would the same action be taken by the school? I would think these guys would have explained the reason for the black faces and the students would have learned a bit of history. It would also have led to a better understanding and therefore tolerance if or when the situation came up again. The students could have even explained it to others who "MIGHT" be offended. I thought schools were a place of learning. Just another example of reverse bigotry stifling freedom of expression. Truly a shame. Everyone lost on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindizzy Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 This is a sad news report: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090629/tuk-m...ol-6323e80.html Ian Now if they'd claimed that they scared the kids...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Sounds like the so called "educators" don't even understand their own culture and history. And they are teaching our young out of ignorance. Sheesh. If they were of normal thought you'd think they would have invested a little time in research to see what they were inviting to perform at the school. PC is a cancer in the US that would be humorous if it weren't such a bad idea to teach our children what to think instead of how to think. Unfortunately I'm afraid it's social engineering at it's worse. Thanks Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miklos Nemeth Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I wonder how many people would be offended if a group of black performers doing traditional entertainment painted their faces white? And would the same action be taken by the school? Great comments, drbones, and very good questions; Thank You. Miki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I wonder how many people would be offended if a group of black performers doing traditional entertainment painted their faces white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbones Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I wonder how many people would be offended if a group of black performers doing traditional entertainment painted their faces white? Well, I really don't think Voodoo or mating rituals should be taught either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Sounds like the so called "educators" don't even understand their own culture and history. And they are teaching our young out of ignorance. Sheesh. If they were of normal thought you'd think they would have invested a little time in research to see what they were inviting to perform at the school. They only needed to "research" as far as the Wikipedia article on Border Morris to read about the origins of the black face in this context: About the black face In recent years, the black face has created some controversy, particularly in North America. The usual explanation for the black face is that it is for "disguise", and that during the hard winters of the 17-18th Century out of work labourers and builders sought to anonymously supplement their income by a bit of dancing and begging. The use of the black face as a form of disguise is certainly well established in early 18th century England - so much so, that in 1723 it became a capital offence under the Waltham "Black Act" to appear "in disguise, either by mask or by blackened face". Another theory is that the black face tradition derives from earlier forms of the dance involving a Moroccan king and his followers (which links into the theory that the word "morris" is derived from moorish or moresco). There is recorded evidence from 1688 of payments in Shrewsbury of 10 shillings to Ye Bedlam Morris and 2 shillings for Ye King of Morroco [1]. There are even earlier recordings of a black-face morris tradition in Europe. Carved figures from 1480 in Munich, Germany show "moriscan dancers" with black faces and bells and evidence from France includes the quote from Arbeau circa 1580 which stated "In fashionable society when I was young, a small boy, his face daubed with black and his forehead swathed in a white or yellow handkerchief, would make an appearance after supper. He wore leggings covered with little bells and performed a morris". However, there is too little recorded evidence to prove or disprove any linkage to the dances on the English Welsh borders. More recently, some people have postulated that the black face tradition was linked to the much later introduction of the American minstrel shows into Victorian England in the late 1830s. However, there is no direct evidence of this nor any explanation for why rural border morris dancers would choose to adapt their traditional folk dances to partially dress like the minstrel performers, but not adopt the whole costume or any other element of the show. By the early 20th century, border morris dancing was known colloquially in some villages as "nigger dancing" or "going niggering". Some view this as direct evidence of the link with minstrel shows: others regard this as nothing more than an obvious description of an older black-face tradition using the terminology and culture of the times. Whatever the theory, there is certainly no evidence that modern border sides attach any racial significance to the blacking of their faces and most choose to accept the explanation of "disguise" for the tradition. Despite that, a few recent sides have chosen to paint their faces in colours other than black to avoid controversy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) Well, I really don't think Voodoo or mating rituals should be taught either. I'm not suggesting that they should, I was simply offering an example of an African (voodoo) ritual dance (from Benin) in which the performers' faces are painted white. After all, there are those who hold that Morris is itself a "fertility rite." And there I was, trying to show that what you were arguing can indeed occur... Edited June 30, 2009 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus_fiddler Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I think this is ridiculous. In the same way of absurd political correctness we had a similar argument here about one of the most popular traditions in Valencia - east coast of Spain-: the so called 'Moors and Christians', sort of parade with people in fancy medieval dresses. Very colourful and worthy watching, but they had a lot of quarrel 'because somebody could feel offended'. Gosh, I feel offended because although I don't wear any religious symbol - is supossed I'm catholic but Spain is nowadays a non-confessional country, so, no religious - I've to stand muslim symbols around me. They even asked to retire crosses from traditional schools - the ones in the classrooms aside the blackboards - but to teach Islam in the schools! In my opinion, respect should go both ways. And isn't. I wonder how much the native spaniard will stand until the rope minorities are pulling so hard brokes... So I think about morris. Who has the right to say that a centuries tradition has to be changed? Then it would't be tradition anymore. I almost split my sides when I readed about the suggestion of retire sticks from the dance. What would be the next stupid thing? To say that morris is an african tradition, or something like that? People with a lot of spare time, indeed... Cheers, Fer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus_fiddler Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Sorry, I didn't understood a single word.... Cheers Fer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick King Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I think this is ridiculous. In the same way of absurd political correctness we had a similar argument here about one of the most popular traditions in Valencia - east coast of Spain-: the so called 'Moors and Christians', sort of parade with people in fancy medieval dresses. Very colourful and worthy watching, but they had a lot of quarrel 'because somebody could feel offended'. Gosh, I feel offended because although I don't wear any religious symbol - is supossed I'm catholic but Spain is nowadays a non-confessional country, so, no religious - I've to stand muslim symbols around me. They even asked to retire crosses from traditional schools - the ones in the classrooms aside the blackboards - but to teach Islam in the schools! In my opinion, respect should go both ways. And isn't. I wonder how much the native spaniard will stand until the rope minorities are pulling so hard brokes... So I think about morris. Who has the right to say that a centuries tradition has to be changed? Then it would't be tradition anymore. I almost split my sides when I readed about the suggestion of retire sticks from the dance. What would be the next stupid thing? To say that morris is an african tradition, or something like that? People with a lot of spare time, indeed... Cheers, Fer It is a complete load of bollocks,and I see the usual idiots like floss the tethers at the session, and assorted mudcatters are getting very hot under the collar. As bad as calling aboriginals over here in Australia 'Black People.' You'd find yourself fighting for your life in hospital in a few minutes... if you weren't dead already. While they get to call us 'White People.' But it's probably something natural between original people and Europeans; Australia's a multi-raced country, if you know what I mean. But Aboriginals beating the hell out of people for calling them black people should be stopped; but I guess it's good in a way, because you don't want any hell inside of you, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I think this is ridiculous. In the same way of absurd political correctness we had a similar argument here about one of the most popular traditions in Valencia - east coast of Spain-: the so called 'Moors and Christians', sort of parade with people in fancy medieval dresses. Very colourful and worthy watching, but they had a lot of quarrel 'because somebody could feel offended'. Gosh, I feel offended because although I don't wear any religious symbol - is supossed I'm catholic but Spain is nowadays a non-confessional country, so, no religious - I've to stand muslim symbols around me. They even asked to retire crosses from traditional schools - the ones in the classrooms aside the blackboards - but to teach Islam in the schools! In my opinion, respect should go both ways. And isn't. I wonder how much the native spaniard will stand until the rope minorities are pulling so hard brokes... So I think about morris. Who has the right to say that a centuries tradition has to be changed? Then it would't be tradition anymore. I almost split my sides when I readed about the suggestion of retire sticks from the dance. What would be the next stupid thing? To say that morris is an african tradition, or something like that? People with a lot of spare time, indeed... Cheers, Fer Changing values are a fact of live. Fifty years ago it was common sense, that a man earned more money on the same job than a woman. And a hundred year ago women weren't considered fit to vote. You may agree or disagree, but these values have changed. I really do regret it if Morris is becoming victim of such changing values. But I think it's not a good idea to discuss these changing values here on C.net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus_fiddler Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) Changing values are a fact of live. Fifty years ago it was common sense, that a man earned more money on the same job than a woman. And a hundred year ago women weren't considered fit to vote. You may agree or disagree, but these values have changed. Phalacy. You're talking about two facts - same earnings and same right to vote - that deserved terms of equalty. I'm not guilty of being born in my own country, paying taxes and have less rights than - even illegal - inmigrants. A subtle difference, as you can see. I really do regret it if Morris is becoming victim of such changing values. Some call it multi-culturality. I see it as loosing your own identity. But I think it's not a good idea to discuss these changing values here on C.net. Why, please? And now you can throw stones to me, if you want Cheers, Fer Edited June 30, 2009 by Fergus_fiddler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Changing values are a fact of live. Fifty years ago it was common sense, that a man earned more money on the same job than a woman. And a hundred year ago women weren't considered fit to vote. You may agree or disagree, but these values have changed. I really do regret it if Morris is becoming victim of such changing values. But I think it's not a good idea to discuss these changing values here on C.net. i agree that too much politicking and the like is inappropriate, as we dont have a politics forum. however, i think that morris dancing is very relevant, as many of our players here are involved in that tradition. i actually learned something--i didnt know they painted their faces black, nor why. however, i think that in certain situations, it may be just easier to paint your face a different color, especially in situations presented in the article. i think a better compromise would be to have some performers with black face, others with red, and who knows, blue, etc (any other colors that may be traditional). i think that way, you can still have the black, but show that it is about color of the mask, and not mocking any ethnic groups. although it may be traditional, and it should not be banned out right, there are certain situations when tradition does accommodate the sensibilities of the times. the tradition clearly comes from a time when black was the cheapest and most effective way to color your face. nowadays, i am sure there are very few who are actually using burnt cork or whatever, so already the tradition has changed. i think the best thing the performers could have done would be the mixed black/non black, and then explained to the school children why they have black faces. then, the next year, they could come back with all black faces, as a properly educated audience would not be offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus_fiddler Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) David, I see your point of good intentions, but I can hardly agree with this. I began to play irish music 16 years ago - God, I'm ageing -, but didn't stopped in music, but trying to understand and KNOW as much as possible about irish culture & tradition, in order to play the music as it deserves. As everybody knows in this forum, my wife is english. So, I've tried to understand british culture and tried to explain her the 'peculiarities' of spanish people and customs, because we live in Spain. So, people coming from outside Britain should have to understand the culture of the welcoming country and don't thing they're the target of all offenses - sometimes, to get any cash compensation -. So, there wouldn't be any need of any 'Smurf Morris Band'. Cheers, Fer PD: Actually, 'black people' is not black, if we're going to be so picky... Edited July 1, 2009 by Fergus_fiddler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Changing values are a fact of live. Fifty years ago it was common sense, that a man earned more money on the same job than a woman. And a hundred year ago women weren't considered fit to vote. You may agree or disagree, but these values have changed. Are you trying to say that, because we realise that women were paid unfairly in the past, English boys' schools should no longer put on Shakespeare plays, because some of the boys would have to dress as women? (As Shakespeare's own actors did!) Sure, values have changed - but Shakespeare's plays seldom hinge on whether women get equal pay for equal work. Elizabethan actors, and modern actors in an all-male environment, did not dress as women to mock or parody them. It was acting, not travesty. Mummers and Morris men with blackened faces were around long before there were black English people. Disguise is central to a lot of ritual performance, and "evil be to him who evil thinks". Whoever gets the idea that such disguises are a mockery of another race must find that other race first and foremost worthy of mockery. I really do regret it if Morris is becoming victim of such changing values. But I think it's not a good idea to discuss these changing values here on C.net. I think it is a good idea! The concertina is about music, and much of music is song, and much of the song that is accompanied by concertinas is traditional. These songs transport ideas and facts from earlier times, which even the oldest of us do not know from personal experience. Some of these facts and ideas may shock us, and make us glad that times have changed. But others show us that the human condition has certain constant factors that have always been there, and which we cannot abolish. The only other way to get at this knowledge would be History at school. But the school History books are made by politicians, and are thus "politically correct". As someone here put it, they tell us "what to think, not how to think". Traditional song, but also dance and drama, give us food for thought, and are, with some exceptions, not "politically corrected". Even the concertina its cultural aspects! Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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