Bad Habits--fingering?

[Alan Miller]

I have a dilemma in knowing whether to use the third row for alternate fingering on the G & A. I started six months ago, and am totally hooked on the concertina. In August I will attend the New England NHICS, and understand that he teaches a unique fingering system, although I don't know what it is. I am using the Edgely Tutor now and find it useful, and I also refer to the Vallely CD Tutor. There are differences in their approaches in that Frank Edgely emphasizes the G row, and Niall Vallely emphasizes the C row. I like them both, and tend to choose based on the tune. For example, I would find Come West Along the Road to be difficult in the C row (where Vallely plays it), but it is easy in the G row (as in the Edgely Tutor). On the other hand, Roddy McCorley is natural on the C row.

 

I am beginning to experiment with the G & A in the third row, and find them handy. For example, in playing G A B, I find it easy to do it on the draw starting with the G on the third row, then moving to the C row for the A & B. Similarly, I am experimenting with A G F# G, by playing them all on the draw but across all three rows, starting with the draw A on C row, then the G on the third row, the F# on G row, and back to the G on the third row. This is handy in the version of Kesh Jig from the Foinn Seisiun Book, and in a lot of other tunes. I find that I spend loads of time trying different fingerings in tunes, and ultimately choose what seems best to me, which usually means I try to have the phrase go in one direction if possible. Am I developing bad habits that will limit my growth? Sometimes, just on a lark and for exercise, I play a tune such as the Irish Jig by alternating between G & C rows, but should I try to play it all on the G row? I can do it much faster by alternating where possible, but should I?

 

Thanks for any insights into this dilemma for me. Alan Miller

Edited April 10, 2004 by Alan Miller

[Henk van Aalten]

I have a dilemma in knowing whether to use the third row for alternate fingering on the G & A.

Alan

 

Just continue your discovery of the alternative fingering on the Anglo. For several sequences of notes there are different options, but no dilemma's!

Just pick the fingering that fits the best with the rest of the tune!

 

have fun!

[JimLucas]

Am I developing bad habits that will limit my growth?

Hmm, Alan, what bad habits do I see you potentially falling into?

.. 1) Thinking you should copy one particular player's style or philosophy, rather than developing your own and/or becoming competent in more than one style.

.. 2) Thinking that there's some fundamental importance to sticking to a particular row.

.. 3) Thinking that you should play the same sequence of notes -- run, phrase, or tune -- the same way every time.

.. 4) Doubting yourself.

 

Here's some commentary on the above:

.. 1) The best of the best -- both performers and teachers -- do not all use the same fingering or follow the same principles. On what basis should you choose among them? In fact, why should you? You're already doing what I presume they did... experimenting to find what suits you best.

.. 2) Whatever argument you can find for the desirability of trying to stick to a single row, I believe I can find you a counterexample, i.e., a situation or playing philosophy where the opposite is considered desirable. (I won't try to make a list here, but I'll be happy to respond to anyone who provides a specific example.)

.. 3) That's a matter of taste, of course. But even if you want a tune to sound exactly the same on each repetition, there will be conceptual conflicts, e.g., between always playing D-E-F#-G on the same buttons and playing all the notes comprising a single beat (e.g., four sixteenth-notes in a quarter-note) in the same direction. My personal philosophy (which I think parallels yours) is to learn to play the same sequence many different ways, so that (i) you can change the emphasis to fit your mood and (ii) when you encounter the same sequence in a new tune, you don't have to stop to work out a comfortable way to play it.

.. 4) One of the more dangerous mistakes to make. Those who are more confident are not always more "right".

[Henk van Aalten]

Whatever argument you can find for the desirability of trying to stick to a single row, I believe I can find you a counterexample, i.e., a situation or playing philosophy where the opposite is considered desirable. (I won't try to make a list here, but I'll be happy to respond to anyone who provides a specific example.)

When I started playing the Anglo, I had a very good reason to stick to a single row. As a young boy (long ago) I played (mouth)harmonica. So when I picked up an Anglo concertina for the first time (25 years later), I could play it immediately because the push-pull pattern is directly comparable with the blow-suck pattern on the harmonica. It took me a long time to forget my harmonica-past and I play cross-row now in order to increase speed or I play on sinle row when the push-pull sequence brings some extra to the tune (i.e. enhancement of rhythm).

My personal philosophy (which I think parallels yours) is to learn to play the same sequence many different ways...

And that's why Anglo playing (IMHO) has this extra difficulty/challenge and that's also why I like the Anglo .

[Alan Miller]

Henk & Jim: Thank you both for your comments. They are right on point and reassuring. And Jim's comments on experimenting, self-doubt and confidence are particularly apt to life beyond learning to playing the concertina. I think I am ready to sit in on one of the slow, slow sessions in Boston this week. Thanks again, Alan

[Samantha]

I, too, like the "rubic's cube" aspect of playing the anglo, working out which moves will get you the result you want this time. I am working on a couple of tunes at the moment where a sequence of notes is repeated, and I have just decided that for both of these I will use one fingering for the first appearance of the sequence, and a different one for the second. This, to me, has two benefits: 1) I get to practise two different fingerings for the same pattern of notes, and 2) they sound slightly different, giving additional colour to the tune.

Bad habits, in my opinion, can only be related to the way you hold the instrument, if the way you hold the instrument is likely to give rise to discomfort and/or injury in the fulness of time. I agree with the other posters in that the matter of which buttons to chose for a certain sequence of notes is one of personal preference, what works for you and the tune.

Good luck and have fun!

Samantha

[Guest Neil Brock]

Noel Hill will definately encourage you to use his system, at least for the duration of the class. I still use Noel's system whenever possible, it really makes sense to me with my button layout (Jeffries). Previous to attending Noel's class, I had a lesson with John Williams and the system he recommended worked OK in the key of G, but the fingerings for the key of D didn't work at all for me (though I think they would work fine with a Lachenal layout). I do think it's a good idea to have a "home" system. On the other hand, there are lots of tunes where I use alternates. In the end it will have to end up your own style.

 

I am currently learning (by ear) a non-Irish tune called, "The Camel's Hump" that has lots of F-naturals, G#'s, and Bb's! The whole tune seems to only work with alternates

 

Neil

[caj]

Answering your original question:

 

If you're going to take lessons from Noel Hill, don't use the alternate G/A to smooth out phrases. Mr. Hill will tell you not to do that.

 

I won't divulge his system, but I will divulge that he makes you stick to the one system, even if a phrase initially feels awkward, even though it would feel easier and smoother if alternate buttons put it all in one direction.

 

 

Bad habits: using alternate fingerings to find the most comfortable way to play each phrase is not necessarily a "bad habit," but it does carry some disadvantages. One, you might have trouble memorizing a large number of tunes, if each tune is somewhat customized in fingering. Two, choosing the most comfortable fingering for each phrase means that you are avoiding awkward passages that you could be confronting with practice. If you feel that a phrase is hard to play, do you think "I better work on this," or "I better find a different way to do it?"

 

Oh, and three, if you're playing Irish trad music, smoothness is not necessarily your goal. The anglo is used because it imparts bouncy lift to the music, because of all that back-and-forth that an alternate fingering can "cure."

 

As for copying the style of other players, it's a different matter when that other player is your instructor. If you have the opportunity to take lessons (and from Noel Hill, that's quite an opportunity,) you're going to use the system your teacher wants you to use.

 

Caj

[Lester Bailey]

As for copying the style of other players, it's a different matter when that other player is your instructor.  If you have the opportunity to take lessons (and from Noel Hill, that's quite an opportunity,) you're going to use the system your teacher wants you to use.

 

  Caj

 

Caj

 

I feel I must disagree with your point of view, I have received instruction, albeit on melodeon, from most of the great players in the UK (Kirkpatrick, Cutting,Peters, etc). They all have their view on how to play and some of their ideas have changed the way I play, but I would not slavishly follow all their views as I would then become a clone and not a musician in my own right.

[JimLucas]

As for copying the style of other players, it's a different matter when that other player is your instructor.  If you have the opportunity to take lessons (and from Noel Hill, that's quite an opportunity,) you're going to use the system your teacher wants you to use.

I feel I must disagree with your point of view, I have received instruction, albeit on melodeon, from most of the great players in the UK (Kirkpatrick, Cutting,Peters, etc). They all have their view on how to play and some of their ideas have changed the way I play, but I would not slavishly follow all their views as I would then become a clone and not a musician in my own right.

Hi, Lester.

 

I don't think that's what Caj meant. At least the way I interpret him -- and what I myself believe -- is that during the course you slavishly follow the teacher. But afterward, it's up to you what to keep and what to change in your own playing.

 

And obviously, if you take lessons from more than one teacher and the things they teach are contradictory, you can't slavishly follow both. B)

[Jim Besser]

> But afterward, it's up to you what to keep and what

> to change in your own playing.

 

Exactly.

 

I attended Noel's class and learned his system. Since then, I find it works well for some tunes, not so well for others; it works for some styles, but obviously not for chord-intensive styles.

 

An interesting exercise is to take a straightforward Irish tune and play it through with differing systems. I've been working on this lately and find it really improves my flexiblity. one time through playing it as Noel would insist, one time playing it the way I did before I took the class, one time mixing the two.

[Peter Brook]

Hi Alan,

 

Like you I am relatively new to the concertina, and it really annoyed me at first that I couldn't find a definitive method on how to play or even which instrument to purchase. All the morris musicians I spoke to told me I needed a G/D Anglo, and all the Irish/session musicians told me I needed a C/G Anglo. In the end I went for C/G Anglo as it suits my singing voice better.

 

Anyway, what I have basically found is that morris anglo musicians are often (but not always) converts from the melodeon and want to go up and down the rows, whilst vamping chords on their left hands.

 

Session/irish players tend to use the C row as their main row to play in G major, A minor etc, and use the G row and accidental row just for sharps and flats. They often want to play just the melody line and don't worry so much about chords. They also use alternate fingering to get more air in or out of the concertina, so cross over to different rows to do this.

 

What I did initially was to play morris music on the G row an octave above the normal tune - then I switched to playing the tune with my left hand so I was in the right register. Now I generally use the C row using both hands and call on other rows as required.

 

As other people have said it is about what is comfortable to you and what you can fit in whilst playing the tune. The Anglo is amazingly versatile - I love playing in Eb and seeing the look of surprise on English concertina players faces followed by the comment - "I didn't think you could do that on an Anglo"!

 

All the best,

 

Peter

[Samantha]

If you feel that a phrase is hard to play, do you think "I better work on this," or "I better find a different way to do it?"

I think "what will make this phrase sound better?"

Samantha

[Samantha]

[snip] ... The Anglo is amazingly versatile - I love playing in Eb and seeing the look of surprise on English concertina players faces followed by the comment - "I didn't think you could do that on an Anglo"!

You've just reminded me I keep meaning to get down to some flat keys ... what sort of thing do you play in Eb? Can you put it in the Tune-o-tron?

Samantha

[Stephen Mills]

Try this, Samantha. It's an air called Ardaidh Cuain, or Ardaigh Cuain, or Quiet Land of Erin. It has only two flats, but is a joy to play. It moves nicely across the accidental row, especially if you use G draw on each hand. Surprisingly to me, it also harmonizes easily on the Anglo.

 

I thought I got it from Mudcat, but there are differences from this version. You can download a harp version by Kim Robertson for free at: harp version in order to hear it. No criticism of her skills at all, but I think it sounds better on the concertina.

 

I don't have an abc, but here is a .jpg file you can send to your printer.

Edited May 6, 2004 by Stephen Mills

[Frank Edgley]

Just as there are several different concertina systems there are different concertina fingering styles. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, but none is superior to the others. It's all what you get used to. However, having said that, I would not recommend anyone try to incorporate all of them into your playing at too early a stage in your playing. The anglo is a fascinating instrument because of its choices, but it can be counter-productive if you have to decide among 10 different ways to play a tune. It then becomes extremely difficult to pick up a tune at a session by ear as the tune is over before you have figured out what pattern to use, and energy is lost on those decisions instead of thinking of the actual melody.

What I recommend is to decide on a system, the simpler the better, and stick with it, so that when hearing a sequence of notes you immediately know how to play it. As you become more and more comfortable with the instrument, you will gradually be able to add alternate figerings to your fingering repertoir. For example, I play certain note sequences exclusivly on the G row, but other note sequences on the C row, or by crossing over between the rows. When these sequences of notes occur, I automatically play them in the pattern I have adopted for them. Nevertheless, I have my "default" pattern to keep me grounded. Keep it simple and predictable to start.

[Guest Marc Blumberg]

Hi Alan,

 

I don't know if you are still reading this thread, but I just read through it and would like to offer my own thoughts. I think the most important issue for you at this moment is that you are about to attend Noel's course (which I did 2 years go). He is a wonderful teacher, but is VERY insistent that you use the system he teaches while at the course. I saw more than a couple of very good students/concertina players who tried to argue to do it their way, whether alternate notes or which knee to place the concertina on, etc. One does not win these arguments with Noel. You just end up wasting time trying to get out of habits you have gotten into which are not consistent with his method. I think it can interfere with the benefit you get from the classes. The way you ultimately play, of course, is entirely another matter, as many have so well articulated here. However, my strong advise to you is that if someone here suggests you not to get into the habit of using a fingering of which Noel disapproves, I would follow that advice (at least until you get back home from NHICS!) Best of luck with the school. Noel is a great teacher and a great person. You'll love it (as long as you don't play your concertina like an accordian - you'll get this joke in August.)