Jump to content

why the standards are low in concertinas


Recommended Posts

I find this thread interesting, and I respect Dave's passion for the concertina. It's good to see passionate people, no matter what it's about. I see all of this from a detached perspective. I already know my limitations and I know that with the 1-2 hours a day (in good times) of practice I can put in, I will die still learning tunes in standard keys, with no "out of bound" exploration. I'm still struggling finding the "right" buttons for a couple of tunes, and still reshaping existing tunes every week. I'm still trying to strenghten my left pinky and fourth finger, and still trying to improve the use of the RH G# and Bb on the accidental row for G minor tunes.

 

But more importantly, when I listen to irish music, I seldom enjoy listening to irish music "virtuosis". My favorite musicians play more relaxed music, which is much more enjoyable to me. That's the issue I have with over analyzing music, and this culture of over emphasis on Noel Hill's teaching. My main problem is that I lack technique, and working on it, but I think having a good articulate rhythm, musical phrasing should be a priority and it seems many concertina players put the emphasis somewhere else, sadly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 77
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

But more importantly, when I listen to irish music, I seldom enjoy listening to irish music "virtuosi". My favorite musicians play more relaxed music, which is much more enjoyable to me. That's the issue I have with over analyzing music, and this culture of over emphasis on Noel Hill's teaching. ... I think having a good articulate rhythm, musical phrasing should be a priority and it seems many concertina players put the emphasis somewhere else, sadly.

I couldn't agree more! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David, you met a young fellow at the Midwest Fleadh who approaches a level of virtuosity already and is only 19. Asher Perkins, who placed first in the concertina competition, as well as button accordion. I know him very well, and while he isn't very flashy or showy for the most part, he is the only concertina player I've ever met who can transpose on the fly, play chromatically and all that jazzy stuff. But he doesn't, because it doesn't sound all that good, and he is much more interested in phrasing and articulation than being a virtuoso. Simply because he started playing at a very young age, and developed his own fingering system based on logic and not necessarily by adopting the fingering of another player. His bellows control is extremely sensitive, and is becoming more so every time I see him. So, there are good players out there, they just aren't all famous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David, you met a young fellow at the Midwest Fleadh who approaches a level of virtuosity already and is only 19. Asher Perkins, who placed first in the concertina competition, as well as button accordion. I know him very well, and while he isn't very flashy or showy for the most part, he is the only concertina player I've ever met who can transpose on the fly, play chromatically and all that jazzy stuff. But he doesn't, because it doesn't sound all that good, and he is much more interested in phrasing and articulation than being a virtuoso. Simply because he started playing at a very young age, and developed his own fingering system based on logic and not necessarily by adopting the fingering of another player. His bellows control is extremely sensitive, and is becoming more so every time I see him. So, there are good players out there, they just aren't all famous.

That's great, I heard him play, I think, if I'm not mistaken.

It takes us back to the naming convention. Sounds like many people would eagerly assign derogatory flavor to the word "virtuoso". A Virtuoso is not the one who plays fast (a computer program would be "virtuoso" then), but who is skillful and talented. When it's time to be "flashy", a virtuoso is flashy, but when it's not, he's not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a lot of this discussion depends on the definition/understanding of the term "virtuoso".

 

See the following definition of the term:

 

In Music in the Western World by Piero Weiss and Richard Taruskin, we find the following definition of virtuoso:[1]

 

"...a virtuoso was, originally, a highly accomplished musician, but by the nineteenth century the term had become restricted to performers, both vocal and instrumental, whose technical accomplishments were so pronounced as to dazzle the public."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuoso

 

By the old definition, "a highly accomplished musician", I think we'd find an equal number of those in the world of concertina players than for other instruments. If you'd take all people of the world playing, for instance, the violin and "filter out" those one objectively could describe as highly accomplished musicians, I'm pretty sure you'd end up with comparable numbers. It's easy to forget of all those millions of people practicing many hours and never getting beyond a certain less accomplished standard.

 

If we would go by the second definition of virtuoso as someone dazzling the public, I think many of us would agree that this is a concept very much remote from folk music/Irish traditional music - the standard fare of concertina music. This description makes me think of a fiddle player that used to come to our local session once in a while and "dazzle the public" - but made everybody else cringe. He gave a very flashy, virtuoso "performance", using incredibly long bows, lots of body movement etc. that made even simply tunes look extremely virtuoso. A truly virtuoso Irish fiddler would have gotten the very same effect (or rather, one that was more suitable to Irish traditional music) by playing very relaxed, with little bow and a flexible wrist. But this guy had the punters cheer, who would normally not even look up from their pints when really good musicians would do their stuff.

 

IMO, the term virtuoso with the meaning of highly accomplished musician would also mean different things for different genres. For instance, Alasdair Fraser definitely qualifies as a highly accomplished virtuoso musician, who warms up for a concert featuring Scottish traditional music by playing a Vivaldi Concerto in a way that would put many classical violinists to shame. But does that automatically make him a virtuoso in Irish traditional music? Not by a long stick, as the fiddle styles are very different and Scottish fiddling is much more influenced by classical violin. That's why, although Alasdair Fraser has a beautiful tone, full command of all keys and all positions etc., I don't really enjoy listening to his playing as much as I'm enjoying some traditional Irish musician who maybe cannot play in A flat major and in anything but the first position, but knows how Irish traditional music is supposed to sound and is a virtuoso in his/her own right and genre. Somebody like Paddy Canny, for example, whose playing style didn't really display the stereotypical virtuoso elements and would probably cause people used to classical violin music to cover their ears due to his "intonation problems".

 

A virtuoso on the Anglo concertina playing Irish music, for instance, would be someone who uses the "idiom" of that genre in a highly accomplished way. And for Irish traditional music, this genre does not include tunes in "weird" keys or speed at the cost of musical integrity in regard to rhythm, phrasing, expressiveness, etc. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a waste of time practicing those keys, but there are other things more important that will help you become an accomplished musician or virtuoso in that genre.

 

Like in any genre or with any instrument, there are a few musicians at the very top who fall into the virtuoso category, and many more trying to be able to play a bit more like them - and also a good number believing that dazzling the public makes them a true virtuoso.

Edited by jileha
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With respect to David, I think it is mistaken to base judgements about virtuosity on the ability to play in any key. In fact, I think it is mistaken to view the Anglo as a chromatic instrument at all. I prefer to think of it as an expanded diatonic instrument, to which the extra notes have been added to allow more options in and around the home keys, rather than to allow playing in any key. This is especially the case when playing chordal style, as the possibilities for playing chords diminish rapidly once you move away from the home keys.

 

It may be possible to play an Anglo in Eb or C#min, but why would you want to do so, except to show off? The majority of players who choose Anglo do so to play a particular kind of music where on the whole the ability to go off into strange keys is not necessary, and where a player gets the best results by playing to the strengths of the instrument rather than trying to do battle with its weaknesses. Sometimes that means adapting the music to the instrument, but in folk genres that is usually permissible.

 

I also play 2-row melodeon, which is even more determinedly diatonic. I have resisted the temptation to get a melodeon with more buttons and more basses, because for me part of the charm, and the challenge, of the melodeon is to fit the music to the demands of the instrument. For the sort of music I play, I can do that. If I wanted to play Bach, or jazz, I'd take up a different instrument.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With respect to David, I think it is mistaken to base judgements about virtuosity on the ability to play in any key. In fact, I think it is mistaken to view the Anglo as a chromatic instrument at all. I prefer to think of it as an expanded diatonic instrument, to which the extra notes have been added to allow more options in and around the home keys, rather than to allow playing in any key. This is especially the case when playing chordal style, as the possibilities for playing chords diminish rapidly once you move away from the home keys.

 

It may be possible to play an Anglo in Eb or C#min, but why would you want to do so, except to show off? The majority of players who choose Anglo do so to play a particular kind of music where on the whole the ability to go off into strange keys is not necessary, and where a player gets the best results by playing to the strengths of the instrument rather than trying to do battle with its weaknesses. Sometimes that means adapting the music to the instrument, but in folk genres that is usually permissible.

 

I also play 2-row melodeon, which is even more determinedly diatonic. I have resisted the temptation to get a melodeon with more buttons and more basses, because for me part of the charm, and the challenge, of the melodeon is to fit the music to the demands of the instrument. For the sort of music I play, I can do that. If I wanted to play Bach, or jazz, I'd take up a different instrument.

I completely agree in regards to definition of "diatonic instrument". But to me, a chromatic instrument may not be able to easily play in all keys, but rather play in few keys chromatically. That's how I view 30 button Anglo and 2/half row accordion with 18 basses. If you want jazz, you can still transpose to your keys and play it convincingly.

Edited by m3838
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What in the name of Satan's screaming hords was that? :ph34r: Jesus, Mary, Joseph and all the major and minor saints...I thought I would loose my mind getting through that! Me freakin' heart is racing and not in a good way!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Peter Laban
"...a virtuoso was, originally, a highly accomplished musician, but by the nineteenth century the term had become restricted to performers, both vocal and instrumental, whose technical accomplishments were so pronounced as to dazzle the public."

 

Another quote (from Daniel Corkery) , I have seen used making a point in the context of virtuosity and Irish music:

 

… it was never simple-hearted enough to speak plainly, and so, intensely. It therefore

dazzles us rather than moves us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"...a virtuoso was, originally, a highly accomplished musician, but by the nineteenth century the term had become restricted to performers, both vocal and instrumental, whose technical accomplishments were so pronounced as to dazzle the public."

 

Another quote (from Daniel Corkery) , I have seen used making a point in the context of virtuosity and Irish music:

 

… it was never simple-hearted enough to speak plainly, and so, intensely. It therefore

dazzles us rather than moves us.

 

 

Peter, I love the Corkery quote. And yes, the word "virtuoso" has become contaminated and no longer is appropriate to indicate a high quality of overall musicianship and emotional communication.

 

But even if we look at musicians and genres where we can recognize a simple-hearted, plain-speaking, honest, (maybe even gruff? rough-hewn? homespun?) technical vocabulary expressing powerful feelings, powerfully received by the audience....

 

Still, it takes *something* in the culture to make the young dedicate themselves to *that* standard of quality in art or musical craft.

 

Why do people devote so much of their precious and formative early years of quickest learning, to *some* instruments and traditions?

 

There have to be strong rewards in the culture -- sometimes the prospect of a successful livelihood, maybe fame, maybe a fad in the culture that makes such musicianship very attractive to the opposite sex -- to induce *a high proportion* of the young to try it out. Such as we have had (at some times in our history) with other musical instruments, or even with sports etc.

 

Even in these days of youtube, mp3 file sharing, etc. it is still possible for quite a few people to make a living playing instruments like the piano, guitar, maybe even some doing it with the banjo or clavichord.... but how much support does the culture give someone who would like to make the concertina their craft for life? How many can do that?

 

I fully recognize that (e.g. by monks in the Dark Ages) traditions can be nurtured despite overall cultural trends. And noncommercial traditions passed down and cherished among families and local friends can be among the most important and beautiful legacies of any generation. And that the measure of quality in an art or craft can have little to do with its economic value.

 

Imagine if there were 100 concertina players making a living with their instrument in every city. And thousands of youngsters looking up to them, learning from them, struggling to compete with them (not necessarily in the athletic, "faster" etc dimensions, but to have an equal or greater emotional impact on the audience). And millions to listen appreciatively, understanding and responding to the music. Numbers are not the measure of quality as I said, but exposure is needed to capture the attention and motivate the efforts of that rare young person who might have the most to offer the instrument.

 

Now for me, and for many adults who have tried to learn the concertina, its relative obscurity has a component of charm. Honestly, that's not why I play it. I just love the concertina, and it had to be a truly wonderful instrument to displace my love for (and the years I devoted to) the guitar and piano. But that is why some folks play it, I'm sure! Beyond that, there is a special cameraderie among some of us who recognize a passion ignored by a majority (at least in the US and I suspect even in Ireland and in the countries that first gave us this instrument). I do think the finest young, and not so young players of today are plenty good enough for me to admire and enjoy their music. I also really love the recordings of many players who have left us; whether they could play in more than one key or not, their music still echoes powerfully.

 

But I do believe if there were more respect for this instrument in the culture, youngsters that are not finding it now might find it, and that would be a wonderful thing.

 

Why isn't the concertina getting that attention? So many instruments have gone through cycles of wide cultural appreciation, then infantilization and ridicule....the accordion, the banjo, the ukulele. You could write a thesis on each of them, or all of them.

 

But it has to be said that publicly promoting music on an instrument, or in a musical idiom, that is unfamiliar to the culture, is harder when many of those promoted (or self-promoted) are not very successful musically. I am not talking here about a rough-edged technique, but (for example) not succeeding in producing a recognizable dance rhythm when the intent is to play dance music. Joe Derrane made this point in an interview in the old C & S magazine (NB I am paraphrasing here): "It bothers me that some of the people playing Irish music in public do it so poorly.... people ask me 'how can you stand that stuff?' If you are going to play Irish music, do it decently and represent it well." I feel the same about the concertina.

 

It's great to see the really fine musicians on youtube (especially the young ones, and notably some of the young players in Ireland playing anglos). But it has to be said that the sight and sound of many an alleged "traditional" session has probably turned off young people who might potentially have taken an interest in the concertina, were the music right and powerful.

 

As someone who has done his best to learn a little on this instrument as an adult, but with many many faults and limitations, I am surely guilty of this also. But I keep trying to play a little better in hopes that someone younger with more potential to offer the concertina will hear what I am trying to achieve, and at least consider that worth doing better than I can.

 

PG

Edited by Paul Groff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Peter Laban

There are a few things in the context of Irish music we should bear in mind: first of all that in Ireland the concertina is extremely popular, especially among young players. Concertina classes at for example the Willie Clancy week have gone from one to nearly twenty within the space of maybe 25 years.

 

Another thing is an aesthetic that is held dear by a good few people: that of restraint. Restraint is often cited as one of the hallmarks of Seamus Ennis' playing (to take a virtuoso piper) and like Seamus most good players operate well within their own technical skills. I heard Breandan Breathnach say once that Ennis could do anything on the pipes, but limited himself to what was needed to 'bring over' the music with taste.

 

It's a safe assumption that top range concertina players are doing the same.

 

Some years ago by the way Noel Hill, acting as MC at a concert, commented on Michelle Mulcahy's playing 'playing that tune in the key of A, like Michelle just did, that was quite a feat of skill'. I don't think many people would have noticed she was in an unusual key if he hadn't mentioned it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well Dave,

I hope you put in at least a couple of hours of practice before your 5:57am response!!

 

Lots of room for opinions here. Totally uncodified, kind of like the Old West in America. Instead of "Draw partner" we have "Play!" and btw "Can you play that in Eb and twice as fast."

 

Best,

 

Greg

 

actually, you'd be proud of me greg. i posted this can of worms the day before, and spent the entire next day practicing or at least living in the real world. i didnt come back online to start drafting responses until after the first of my family went to bed, which means i cant practice anymore. actually, now that i think about it, when i was at school last semester, i actually remember staying up practicing until 5 am at least once.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there are so many responses well worth my time, and well worth consideration. i will try to respond to the general tone of several responses at once (so that i can spend more time practicing, :P)

 

i think i want to make it clear again that virtuosity in the sense i am talking about has very little to do with folk music. we were discussing virtuosity on the instrument which is analogous to the same sort of virtuosity which is seen on other instruments, which would basically preclude folk music as being a contending genre for virtuosity in the sense we were discussing.

 

i guess maybe i did not make this distinction so clear originally. i started to play music because i wanted to play irish music. my family's response was to put me in the school band so i would learn how to play. to me, part of learning to play irish music was learning how to play classical music--they happened to coincide. just as fiddle players play the fiddle at a session and the violin in an orchestra, i learned to treat the flute as two separate instruments, with two different ways of articulation, two separate fingerings, and two separate ideas of tone and tuning. the fact that i played both on the silver flute was irrelevant. even today, if i decide to mess around with classical music (or multiphonics or other modern things), the first thing i do is change the position of my headjoint, because i treat the flute as a separate instrument when i stray away from irish music.

 

this sort of distinction is largely missing from concertina music. or at least... we think it is, which is why we were discussing it. so, again... to clarify... imagine fiddle players and violinists... what i am trying to say is not that the fiddle players of the concertina (so to speak) are no good, but that there arent very many (if any) "violinists" of the concertina.

 

so, even though i have not seriously played classical in very long (and i dont know if i was very serious), when i pick up an instrument, i do not view it as restricted to a particular genre. to me, the concertina is an isntrument, not an irish instrument. even though i play it because i want to play irish music, and i spend most of my time playing irish music, i still want to explore at as an instrument--as a system unto itself. that is what we were discussing...

 

the reason i harp on playing in different keys is because it is basically an assumed characteristic in classical musicianship. classical musicians dont get stuck in home keys like we do (myself included). it is also easier to talk about than other characteristics... if we want to talk about someone i consider a virtuoso, here is a clip:

. it would be very difficult to say that "there is no one on the concertina who can play like that." like what? instantly everyone would say, "yes there is." so... instead, i chose an actually quantifiable thing. scales. it's a bit insipid, yeah, i agree, but i have little option. no one has developed the concertina technical vocabulary to the point where we can talk about the minutiae of bellows pressure or articulation to the point classical musicians can. an example of this would be at 4:00 in on this clip (
). the student gets one note out, and perlman is not happy with it, and has an exact reason why. personally, I DONT HEAR A DIFFERENCE, but he does. and again... i'm going to emphasize that it may be irrelevant, but i still believe there is not a pool of musicians on the concertina who have developed to the point where they can have the sort of discussion that these musicians are having. and again... folk musicians dont have these sort of discussions, nor should they. but we were talking about technique on an instrument as an abstract, theoretical concept, and were thinking far beyond the limited sphere of folk music.

 

another way to say it was that m3838 and i were saying that there is no one who plays the concertina of any sort who is as technically proficient, masterful, and expressive as the top players on the violin. this is not derogatory on concertina players--i do not know of any irish fiddle players who play on 3 million dollar violins, nor should they. even the most virtuosic irish players have much less developed technique than the most virtuosic classical players. but yet i emphasize again that this is not necessarily an important distinction so far as meaningfulness and musicality is concerned. give me james kelly over itzhak perlman any day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

another point i didn't mention first time round when noting why extremely proficient players nonetheless switch to non-c/g concertinas for keys such as e-flat, is that we are in a peculiar moment in irish trad free-reed aesthetics where blaring, loud bass chords and blaring, loud double stops done on an accordion will get you driven out of your tiny hamlet by villagers carrying torches, but equally loud, blaring bass chords done on concertina will get you nominated for a Genius Grant. the post noel-hill school loves their loud bass effects. they often call this a "piper sound," which to my ear comes across more like ceili piano, Morris music, or piano-accordion sounds, but hey, different strokes for different folks. what i'm getting at is, that if you like frequent fat, monster bass chords, even if the limited directional melody-playing options in keys such as e-flat don't bug you on c/g, you will switch to another tuning to get the chordal options. they are not there effectively in those keys on c/g.

 

on paganini---again, if what we are talking about is a putative lack of virtuosity on anglo concertina for classical music, the reason is that the instrument's limitations make it unsuitable for classical virtuosity in a full sense. you can play classical and jazz on it, beautifully, but with simplified arrangements or sparer original compositions. certain erik satie pieces, for example. even something like the paris musette repertoire, while you could do lovely simpler stuff with it on anglo, you need a CBA or a PA to do justice to. this is nothing against the anglo, which i adore. it is a simple fact weighing against the claim being advanced here that complex classical or other genres are being shorted by some failure of virtuosity by anglo concertina players....

 

the rest of us don't give two hoots about paganini. we are too busy trying to sound like joe ryan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

actually, you'd be proud of me greg. i posted this can of worms the day before, and spent the entire next day practicing or at least living in the real world. i didnt come back online to start drafting responses until after the first of my family went to bed, which means i cant practice anymore. actually, now that i think about it, when i was at school last semester, i actually remember staying up practicing until 5 am at least once.

 

David,

I keep after you to spend more time playing than posting because of your enthusiasm and dedication and for the fact that I have more than a passing acquaintence with attention deficit disorder (yours and mine). Barring your becoming a professional concertina player it will probably not be any easier in the future to find more time than now to play and practice. So please, throw an occasional log of controversy on the concertina fire and then go back to playing in pursuit of your personal and best concertina sound.

 

With an occasional time out for introspection, I think that is the best we can all do for the concertina: Play to the best of our ability and be friends and supporters of those who play or might play the instrument.

 

The rest will take care of itself.

 

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a few things in the context of Irish music we should bear in mind: first of all that in Ireland the concertina is extremely popular, especially among young players. Concertina classes at for example the Willie Clancy week have gone from one to nearly twenty within the space of maybe 25 years.

 

Another thing is an aesthetic that is held dear by a good few people: that of restraint. Restraint is often cited as one of the hallmarks of Seamus Ennis' playing (to take a virtuoso piper) and like Seamus most good players operate well within their own technical skills. I heard Breandan Breathnach say once that Ennis could do anything on the pipes, but limited himself to what was needed to 'bring over' the music with taste.

 

It's a safe assumption that top range concertina players are doing the same.

 

Some years ago by the way Noel Hill, acting as MC at a concert, commented on Michelle Mulcahy's playing 'playing that tune in the key of A, like Michelle just did, that was quite a feat of skill'. I don't think many people would have noticed she was in an unusual key if he hadn't mentioned it.

 

i agree with you that restraint is very important. i love the clip of joshua bell so much that i

because it is so delicate and because of the amount of restraint he shows. he could have hammed it up a lot, and people probably would have liked it a lot more. consider
, who was the first person that was ever deemed worthy of first place in the fifteen year history of the international chopin festival. personally, i think it is because of his delicacy and restraint.

 

i also agree that the top concertina players are probably showing a lot of restraint, as are a lot of top irish musicians. james kelly's newest album "melodic journeys" shows so much restraint compared to his earlier work, yet it is my favorite he has ever done. people go wild and crazy over coamhin o raghallaigh and mick o'brien's album "kitty lie over," yet if you delve further into mr. o raghallaigh's other musical endeavors, you can see how much he is restraining his musical style to play like he does, because his other music is experimental even by mainstream standards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there is not a pool of musicians on the concertina who have developed to the point where they can have the sort of discussion that these musicians are having. and again... folk musicians dont have these sort of discussions

Oh yes they do. It's just about different things. They talk about the subtle grit, drive, fire, shuffle, and confidence in a certain fiddler's sound, among many other things. Things many expert classical musicians can't even hear, just as many expert traditional musicians can't hear the minutiae in a classical violinist's performance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...