Anglo technical question

[david_boveri]

They were extremely difficult for the afore-mentioned students, whose teacher had not shown them alternate button choices. They were good players, but were not used to the flexibily of button choices for differently structured tunes.

i always wonder at this. i learn from said teacher, and have learned to use all the buttons. i have heard this before as well from many other sources, and i can never figure out why. also, it is confusing, because even if they do not use the same buttons as you do, surely they should have the tools in their concertina-toolbox to play any tune. sometimes i wonder if people learning pay attention at all.

 

i'm always interested in learning how others play. i'm sure you're so busy this time around at the fleadh since you guys are hosting it that you wont have time to sit and "talk shop" about fingering, but i'd really like to see how you approach the concertina some time.

[david_boveri]

It seems to me players who are musical and have experience avoid the narrowness of dogmatic thinking.

 

The problem with this thread is that I don't think my initial post has been clearly understood, and people diverge in all directions but the one I wanted.

 

......

 

Now, "concertina reel" mostly on the C row is an interesting idea and I will certainly explore this tonight. I might find out it's easier and like it better than my current version which is mostly on the G row, but I might find I prefer the way I play it now. That's the reason why I'm asking about what some teachers would do, so that I can try and compare.

 

so, let's get back on track. what do you want to know?

 

i was thinking about the concertina reel in the G row, and i think that is how they would have played it back in the day IF they were to play it in D, which is a big IF. still, i like the idea of reinterpreting something according to the strictures of the past.

[Azalin]

so, let's get back on track. what do you want to know?

 

i was thinking about the concertina reel in the G row, and i think that is how they would have played it back in the day IF they were to play it in D, which is a big IF. still, i like the idea of reinterpreting something according to the strictures of the past.

 

Ok, how would *you* play the tune (in "D") ?

[JimLucas]

This button selection thingy is becoming my worse nightmare on the concertina, I'm used, as a programmer, to get straight, logical, black and white answers and solutions, but this is so totally chaotic to me.

Huh?

Have you never written a conditional branch that depended on the result(s) of other choice(s)??

 

Seems to me that what some of us are recommending is the same principle, i.e., that choices and decisions are both interdependent and dependent on context. Happens all the time in the programming I'm used to.

[Azalin]

Seems to me that what some of us are recommending is the same principle, i.e., that choices and decisions are both interdependent and dependent on context. Happens all the time in the programming I'm used to.

 

Many decisions here depend on personnal taste, and can be very subjective. I don't remember ever doing such decision in programming. You use known design patterns, and do what is more optimized, easier to maintain and/or takes less time to build, but taste? I'd get fire really quickly if I'd develop based mostly on my own taste.

[david_boveri]

so, let's get back on track. what do you want to know?

 

i was thinking about the concertina reel in the G row, and i think that is how they would have played it back in the day IF they were to play it in D, which is a big IF. still, i like the idea of reinterpreting something according to the strictures of the past.

 

Ok, how would *you* play the tune (in "D") ?

 

i would not switch over to the G row for the entire tune. i would grab alternate notes such as third finger A and push B when necessary against a push D.

[David Levine]

Frank said:

They were good players, but were not used to the flexibility of button choices for differently structured tunes.

Yes, but how much better they will be now, having mastered one way of playing, limiting though it might be at first, and now moving on to learn another approach. The idea of a default system isn't limiting. It's like the sonnet form – you work within a structure, perfect that, and then, armed with that ability, move on to something new.

 

Richard said:

Noel suggested playing the Concertina Reel all across the C row.

This is probably only because he was demonstrating how he'd play the tune in the key of C, in a straight old-time, push-pull style. He would normally play it in the key of D with a different technique- Viz: Playing Across the Rows. To date it has been downloaded 316 times.

 

Richard said:

rather than use the push D [Edel] would use the pull D to avoid from jumping up and down with the same finger when playing consecutive D/F to G/A.

Right you are. And this is what Noel would recommend. Noel was one of Edel's teachers.

 

Eskin said: …

anytime I have an A or G going to/from the high D or E, I'll use the third finger A/G as the substitution to avoid jumping the index between rows.

Right. This is pretty basic Noel Hill technique. Azalin, I think this answers your question.

 

Azalin said:

This button selection thingy is becoming my worse nightmare on the concertina, I'm used, as a programmer, to get straight, logical, black and white answers and solutions, but this is so totally chaotic to me.

 

This is why having a default system, as Noel Hill teaches, is so valuable. It takes time to learn, and you have to play tunes slowly as you learn (slower than if you "cheated"), and as you deal with tunes that don't fit. It requires some faith that this approach will ever pay off. But in time you do master that system and it starts to make sense. As you learn you expand and develop new ways of approaching tunes that don't fit perfectly into the default system.

 

The Concertina Reel is tricky. I follow Noel's default system. In the second part I make liberal use of the G-row movement of A to D. I like going from A draw to D press and I find it easier to ornament the press D on the G row (Noel's default button) than if I played that phrase on the C row. I don't think about rows when I play. I think about the movement in the default system-- and what button to use if the tune won't fit nicely. Bu nicely I mean that I want to be able to fit in ornaments naturally and musically, and this is most easily done when I follow the system.

 

Daiv said:

i would not switch over to the G row for the entire tune. i would grab alternate notes such as third finger A and push B when necessary against a push D.

 

Right. But I never use the push B in that tune. I only use the push B if I have to. Playing the Jeffries layout gives a player more options when it comes to using the C-row B. Again, I think this answers Azalin's question.

[Azalin]

so, let's get back on track. what do you want to know?

 

i was thinking about the concertina reel in the G row, and i think that is how they would have played it back in the day IF they were to play it in D, which is a big IF. still, i like the idea of reinterpreting something according to the strictures of the past.

 

Ok, how would *you* play the tune (in "D") ?

 

i would not switch over to the G row for the entire tune. i would grab alternate notes such as third finger A and push B when necessary against a push D.

 

Well, I got an idea. Why don't you record the tune on your Carroll and send the clip to me. It would allow me to hear your Carroll, and also have an idea of how you make the tune sound. :-)

[Azalin]

Right. But I never use the push B in that tune. I only use the push B if I have to. Playing the Jeffries layout gives a player more options when it comes to using the C-row B. Again, I think this answers Azalin's question.

 

Allright thanks, I'll give the tune another go, using the C row a bit more this time...

[david_boveri]

Right. But I never use the push B in that tune. I only use the push B if I have to. Playing the Jeffries layout gives a player more options when it comes to using the C-row B. Again, I think this answers Azalin's question.

 

you're right, neither do i. i had looked at the tune with my concertina in hand several hours before i posted my response. a quick look at the sheet music just now shows i would not use a push B. thanks for clarifying my mistake.

 

oh, and yeah, noel hill taught the concertina reel in C because he wanted to play it in a more old-fashioned style. also, the way he played that tune in C was different than how he plays most tunes in C, in order to get an old-fashioned vamp going. i think it is a good example of the non-dogmatic approach noel can take with students who are well grounded in his scales and fingering patterns.

[ceemonster]

you can hear noel playing a hot, fiery version of "concertina reel" with tony macmahon in their classic live recording made in Knocknagree.....

 

http://www.amazon.com/Noel-Hill-Tony-MacMahon/dp/B000000DUZ

 

i have heard gearoid ohallmhorain tell a class that it is ironically named since it is one of the most awkward, annoying tunes to try to do something with on concertina.....

[Stiamh]

i have heard gearoid ohallmhorain tell a class that it is ironically named since it is one of the most awkward, annoying tunes to try to do something with on concertina.....

 

Funny, I've always assumed it was called the concertina reel because it's annoying, fullstop.

[dwinterfield]

They were extremely difficult for the afore-mentioned students, whose teacher had not shown them alternate button choices. They were good players, but were not used to the flexibily of button choices for differently structured tunes.

i always wonder at this. i learn from said teacher, and have learned to use all the buttons. i have heard this before as well from many other sources, and i can never figure out why. also, it is confusing, because even if they do not use the same buttons as you do, surely they should have the tools in their concertina-toolbox to play any tune. sometimes i wonder if people learning pay attention at all.

 

i'm always interested in learning how others play. i'm sure you're so busy this time around at the fleadh since you guys are hosting it that you wont have time to sit and "talk shop" about fingering, but i'd really like to see how you approach the concertina some time.

 

As the most challenged person in the room that day with Frank, I will comment that one of the joys of learning to play the concertina is sitting with different teachers. Students don’t always put themselves in the right class. Frank was very patient. That particular class was a bit beyond my skill level and I did find it quite frustrating. While I didn’t learn the tunes that day, it was one of the most enlightening moments I’ve had as a student. I had the same experience that some “along the row” players have had at Noel’s camp. I still have those tunes and will re-visit them. Since that class, I’ve jumped into the world of alternate fingering with “said” teacher and with Chris Stevens in the Boston Comhaltas classes. I’m also in a practice ceili band at Comhaltas and my new complaint is that the whistle and fiddle folks can pick up new tunes quicker because they don’t have to spend time deciding which d to use.

[David Levine]

Re: ...the whistle and fiddle folks can pick up new tunes quicker because they don't have to spend time deciding which d to use.

You really don't have to spend time deciding which d to use. Always use #15 (Carroll chart). Sometimes when you have to use #10 A right after or before D, you should use #13 instead of that #10. Doing this will allow you to use #15.

If you absolutely must use #22 because of phrasing, then you can. Nothin' to it. Really, where is the problem? If you're into the Noel Hill method you should concentrate on playing that way whenever you can. You may not always be able to do that, such as in a class or a session, but after a while it will become an automatic -- default -- way of playing. Do you in fact use the #13 to make your life easier? Or does that make life harder for you?

 

Here's The Concertina Reel as I have it, played on my Carroll:

[geoffwright]

If you are playing less than a 30 key Anglo - look away now.

 

A finger strengthening exercise I worked on for a couple of years was in the 4th part of Hunours of Ballyloughlin

 

HoB.pdf

 

bars 3 & 4 have quite a hard finger-swapping exercise (finger 5 is the LH pinkie)

 

3rd finger 4th finger 5th finger 3rd finger

Push C row Push C Pulll G Pull C

EEE E F D | EFD EFG

 

The EFD phrase can be repeated over and over.

No stretching required - more teaching your fingers to move in a different order.

 

 

 

Another was in bars 5 & 6 of the 1st part of the 4 part Gold Ring

 

GR.pdf

 

4th finger 4th finger 5th finger 4th finger 2nd finger

Push Acc. row Pull C row Pull G row Pull G row Push G row

A,A,A, D F A| d fd edA|(3Bcd B AFA|Bdd d2:|

 

once this has been cracked, the same thing is done in reverse in bars 3 & 4

 

(3Bcd B AFD|E{FE}DE FDB,|

 

 

and to get the pinkie moving, the above fingering can be modified to Tom Friel's

 

Any questions - ask away

 

TF.pdf

Edited April 30, 2009 by geoffwright

[david_boveri]

you can hear noel playing a hot, fiery version of "concertina reel" with tony macmahon in their classic live recording made in Knocknagree.....

 

http://www.amazon.com/Noel-Hill-Tony-MacMahon/dp/B000000DUZ

 

i have heard gearoid ohallmhorain tell a class that it is ironically named since it is one of the most awkward, annoying tunes to try to do something with on concertina.....

 

noel hill says the same thing. personally, i think it depends on two things: what key you play it in, and what layout you have.

 

in the key of C, it is really a piece of cake. in the key of D (the usual key, nowadays), it is really annoying on the wheatstone layout. it's pretty easy on jeffries, i think. i never got what both of them were saying about the tune until i tried playing it as if i had a wheatstone layout, and i cursed whoever gave it that name.

 

speaking of noel's version... he plays it here with micho russel and a couple other great players:

.

 

i've dabbled with playing it in Eb on my C/G to play along with them. it's definitely a finger twister.

Edited May 1, 2009 by david_boveri