Questions about Noel Hill camp

[Azalin]

I posted a thread about the camp's price recently, but now my question would be about the camp itself. I'd like like to get some more info if possible to see if this is the type of camp I would enjoy.

 

The few concertina players I heard who attended the camp before had something in common that was a bit 'troubling' to me. It seems that all of them were trying to put lots of technical things in their tunes at the expense of the actual melody and rhythm... it's like trying to fit as much as possible in too little space. It was a bit impressive technically, but not very impressive musically. I'm not a big fan of Noel's playing, although is a concertina God for sure, but I'm more into the more 'relaxed' style of west Clare players... or somewhere in between. I really like Edel Fox's playing, and Tim Collins, and although they sound very flashy compared to let's say Mary McNamara, they are still a bit toned down compared to Noel.

 

Anyway, I'm trying to get to my question. What will Noel put emphasis on when he teached? Is it mostly technique, or the actual tune, playing the melody solid etc be important for him to teach? What is the priority for him for learners?

 

Also, how does it work, is there different classes, divided by 'level' of playing, or it's all mixed up?

 

Thanks for the info, I'll try to decide about the camp in the next few weeks.

[david_boveri]

I posted a thread about the camp's price recently, but now my question would be about the camp itself. I'd like like to get some more info if possible to see if this is the type of camp I would enjoy.

 

The few concertina players I heard who attended the camp before had something in common that was a bit 'troubling' to me. It seems that all of them were trying to put lots of technical things in their tunes at the expense of the actual melody and rhythm... it's like trying to fit as much as possible in too little space. It was a bit impressive technically, but not very impressive musically. I'm not a big fan of Noel's playing, although is a concertina God for sure, but I'm more into the more 'relaxed' style of west Clare players... or somewhere in between. I really like Edel Fox's playing, and Tim Collins, and although they sound very flashy compared to let's say Mary McNamara, they are still a bit toned down compared to Noel.

 

Anyway, I'm trying to get to my question. What will Noel put emphasis on when he teached? Is it mostly technique, or the actual tune, playing the melody solid etc be important for him to teach? What is the priority for him for learners?

 

Also, how does it work, is there different classes, divided by 'level' of playing, or it's all mixed up?

 

Thanks for the info, I'll try to decide about the camp in the next few weeks.

 

short answer:

in my experience, people like to say a lot of things.

try to play something at noel with bad rhythm and no sense of melody. see if he lets you play that way, .

 

you will be expected to learn two tunes a day. there are three levels: beginner, intermediate, and advanced. in advanced you will be expected to only learn by ear, even though sheet music is provided. i've heard you play, you should be in the advanced class.

 

he will emphasize everything. he presents concertina playing as a whole, and expects you to spend a year on what he has taught you in a week, and still need more work.

 

every year as i say goodbye, he grabs my hand, tells me one thing to do, and tells me to work on it all year. i'm a bit cheekier and ambitious than most, so he might not do the same for you. but it has never been "ornamentation." it's stuff like "get those bellows straightened out" or "work on your rhythm" or "get more space between the notes and give the tune some air." last year it may not have been the last day, but he said to me that all he wanted was to get all the speed out of me, so i could just slow down.

 

 

long answer:

as a teacher, he always tries to emphasize with each player what they need to work on. usually he may not say something for the first few days of a camp, as he watches your playing and assesses it. he also may let some things slide sometimes, but it's not that he doesnt notice, it's that he has to pick and choose all his battles, as all teachers must.

 

from what i have seen, his first and foremost goal as a teacher is that you will get enough out of the lessons to last you a year and then some. in my experience, this is what good teachers do. it is not the breadth of material covered, but the quality. for example, i have had maybe two or three lessons with james kelly, and i am still working on things he told me to do on the first lesson. i am still working on things that noel told me to do several years ago.

 

in order to do this, he must present the tune as a whole. on the tape, and in the class, the way he presents the tune is the way you will end up playing it if you practice it very diligently for years and years. very obviously, then, the way you play after a day of practice is not the final product.

 

so, if you want to look at emphasis, you have to look at the big picture. when you are sitting in front of noel, he will do his best so that you have a good enough foundation to work on that tune for years to come. this includes hitting all the correct notes, all the ornamentation of the version he wants you to learn, and all the variations he wants you to learn. even if he just did all the notes, no ornamentation, after a few hours of practice there are very people who could take a tune they have not learned and play it cold turkey note for note with good rhythm. so, if he just emphasized melody and rhythm, you would leave at the end of the week still having bad rhythm, a shakey handle on the tunes, PLUS no ornamentation, no technique, no chords--nothing.

 

it is true that he may not address rhythm and phrasing in every class, with every individual. but, this does not mean he does not emphasize it... remember i said that noel works on the things that people have trouble with. when someone is having trouble with the basic scale, that is what he works on. if someone has trouble with the basic notes, that is what he works on. if you are having trouble on rhythm or phrasing, that is what he works on.

 

you might say that some of the people you have met who have gone to noel's camps DO have trouble with rhythm and DO have trouble with ornamentation. what i am going to say to you is that if these same people would sound the same no matter what... if noel didnt teach them ornamentation, their musicality would be exactly the same, probably worse. most people need an awfully large amount of muscle memory built up to play a tune all the way through without skipping beats, never mind with good rhythm. noel could talk himself blue in the face about playing ornamentation with good rhythm, about how to practice to achieve rhythm (and sometimes he does), and most people just dont listen. as my uncle says (he is the whistle player that loads in the kells clip on http://burkewhistles.com/ ), "no matter how much you try to teach people about rhythm and phrasing, all they want to learn musicality." my uncle actually refused to teach me how to do ornamentation for years and years, and instead told me to buy a metronome and get back to him when i could play in time. i didnt listen. i learned how to do ornamentation online. and my music still suffers from all those years i could have been playing with a metronome instead of learning ornamentation.

 

so, if you were to look at my uncle as a teacher, instead of say noel, you may come to the same conclusions. you might have listened to my playing and said, "well, brian mccoy must not be so great of a teacher if his nephew plays like that." what you really should be saying is, "well, that person must not be a very good student. i wonder how good the teacher is?"

 

the only way to answer that question is to check for yourself.

 

so, from my perspective, i would say noel does emphasize rhythm and melody. a lot. but... most people just dont listen. i listen. when he says to add space between the notes, i go back to my room and spend hours just trying to find out what that means. most people just say "uh-huh" and walk away. it's like james kelly... my very first lesson he told me that my notes were too square, and that they bumped into eachother. it took me weeks to figure out what that meant, months even. most people would not have thought about a single sentence like that.

 

last year, noel told us in the advanced class not to think about the fingers, but to think about the sound. he said that when he thinks about his fingers he gets all tangled up in his head. do i need to repeat that? noel hill told us not to think about our fingers. that sentence contradicts most of what people here on c-net say about noel's classes. so... like i said, "people say a lot of things."

 

most people probably just gave a nice smile, walked away, and never thought about it. that sentence has consumed my entire year! i went up to him later that night, and drilled him to get more at what he meant. no one else did this. he told me that as he plays, in his head he hears every note as he plays it. the shape, the volume, the length, the tone color, etc etc. i asked him what about if you hear the notes before they play. and he said, "you're in poor shape if that happens." i wasnt satisfied with that answer, so i asked it another angle. in response, he told me a dirty joke, which actually explained it so well, that it has saved me hours of grief (i'll not repeat the joke here).

 

that all may seem irrelevant, but it's not. as with all good teachers, there is so much to be gotten out of what they say, and no time. if you are not looking for something, you cannot find it. when i do not understand, i refuse to let it stand by. i think about it. dissect it. ask about it. while everyone else mildly accepts what noel says, i try to figure it out, and see what he means. while he plays, i often sit on the floor if i cannot see his hands. other students are content not seeing his hands.

 

as a teacher, he is very perceptive. last year during a concert, i was looking at his fingerings (as i always do). in one tune, noel knew exactly what i was looking at, and exactly what i was wondering, and changed around the whole tune to accent it and make fun of me. it is hard to describe... but just picture this: he was playing music, just a normal reel. no one saw the sidelong glance he gave me. all of a sudden, the music changed. the audience couldnt tell what had changed, but all of a sudden the music sounded cheeky and playful. they all started laughing, not because it sounded bad, but because it sounded so good... he was having fun with me. no one knew this. all music is like a discussion between the performer and the audience. in this instance, he was discussing very much so with me. everyone else was listening in on this, whether they knew it or not, and and they thought it was funny. just like it's funny when he makes fun of me with actual words. then, all of a sudden, he ended the tune, and immediately said, looking straight at me, "E minor and don't you ever forget it!" i never have, either.

 

the point of this story is that i learned a chord in the middle of a concert. this was because he taught it to me. you could say what a good teacher. but... here's what i say. no one else would have learned it, and in fact i dont think anyone else learned their E minor chord during that concert. that was cuz no one else was looking. and noel would not have done it if no one was looking. even though he did do it, no one was looking, so no one learned it, so it might as well been that he did not do it, as far as everyone else was concerned. do you see where i'm getting at? if you talked to anyone else at that concert--many his students--you would never get the impression that as a teacher, he can even teach you as he is performing. even though that is 100% what he did during that one particular set. this is exemplary, and it will probably never happen again, but it illustrates very well the idea that just because you are present in a classroom does not mean you will learn what is being taught: even the best teacher in the world can do nothing with students who are not paying good enough attention.

 

now, of course, you can see i put a heavy emphasis on the student in the learning process, whereas most people put their emphasis on the teacher. i consider noel a very good teacher. i have learned not only volumes about the concertina, but i have learned so much about teaching just by watching him. i just think it's a shame that we have all been crippled by the educational mindset everywhere, as it both makes it difficult to learn, and even more difficult to teach, when you have to overcome the mindsets of your students. i think noel does a very good job of this, but he only has a week with us every year. and again... detracting from myself... no matter how much noel tells me about things like i "confuse speed with rhythm" and that i need to "give a tune some shape" and slow it down and "get the levers in my head set up" before i play, i largely don't listen. but after four years, i think i am slowly starting to listen.

 

 

 

 

now concludes the introduction to my multi-volume work on the manners and methods of noel hill instruction in week long workshops.

 

upcoming sections:

volume one: overview

1. the anatomy of an instructional recording session (variations, sequence, length, exposition, rhythmic structure, metronomic fluctuations while maintaining rhythmic integrity, the track-mark dilemma, comparison between demonstrated performance setting and actual performance setting)

 

2. sheet music notation methodology (the crossed out note hypothesis, the multiple methods of writing chords, variations in cut notation, the third finger A anomolies, analysis of transcriber attribution)

 

3. scale sheets deconstructed (color schemes, bolded semi-circles, the elusive lower octave, the painful upper octave)

 

4. chord charts (variations through time)

 

5. ornamentation charts (do they exist? are they a legend? do i own one, and just forgot?)

 

6. the practice session: part 1 (example playing)

 

7. the practice session: part 2 (group phrase by phrase)

 

8. the practice session: part 3 (progression of ability to play over everyone playing at the same time)

 

9. noel's unusual concertina related abilities (the ability to play with one hand while drinking coffee with the other, the ability to carry on conversations while playing, the ability to speed up a tune so quickly to the point it sounds like it is being sped up on a tape recorder [all the while maintaining rhythmic integrity], the ability to break multiple hand straps in a year)

 

volume 2: characteristics of noel's style

 

1. staccato

 

2. the use of drones and harmonic 7ths

 

3. tone color (through use of pressure, volume, and "phantom" notes)

 

4. OH OK I THINK YOU ALL GOT IT. I COULD GO ON FOR A COUPLE MORE HOURS, BUT I'M DONE. although i would like to add that some memorable items coming up would be sections on hand strap tightness, resting his hands on the instrument, lifting up the concertina off his leg, the "melodic establishment and gradual increase of harmonic variation" hypothesis, and of course a volume on fingering variation and about 10 volumes on DIRTY JOKES.

 

thank you all, have a good night.

 

daiv "spends too much time analyzing things" boveri

Edited April 6, 2009 by david_boveri

[david_boveri]

i would just like to let you know greg that i do listen. see? a nicely labeled "short answer," including emphatic enlargement, to visually indicate that it is that section which is most important.

[buikligger]

hi david,

 

thanks for the rich explanation. You have an attitude of learning that resembles mine: keep asking until i know, translate the teachers vision into the language i know. At bodhran i may be advanced, but at concertina i'm a beginner, and i play English. I look forward to the Drumshanbo Summer School with Noel!

 

kind regards

 

dirk

[Azalin]

Thanks Dave, now I'll be late to work because I couldn't help myself reading bits there and there... :-) You are very hardcore, I didn't know I'd meet someone (learning the concertina) more intense than myself!

[RP3]

David has given you a very thorough and accurate postgraduate dissertation explanation. (Sorry David, I couldn't resist!) Regardless of what you think of Noel's personal style, he is an excellent teacher and will give you a wonderfully balanced week of concertina tutoring. Go with an open mind and you will have a very rewarding time; go with a closed mind and you will be miserable.

 

The vast majority of the students find the week so beneficial that they keep coming back year after year. I think you can have a great learning experience, but your own attitude will determine your actual experience. Learning is about change. Over the years I've seen some people come to NHICS and fight to not change. Those folks probably left with nothing but bad memories. I fought in my second year not to work by ear, and I hurt only myself. Fortunately I later learned from my mistake and I now look forward to only working by ear at NHICS -- forsaking sheet music for all but the most challenging passages if at all possible. Others came and took in all they could and left with more than a year's worth of training materials. As Noel says, the winter is long. We leave each year's class with plenty of tunes, recordings and instruction to keep us busy throughout that winter.

 

Getting to one of your specific questions, Noel does teach the entire tune, ornaments and all; but there is no pressure to include them -- until you're ready. Getting the basic tune down with the proper rhythm comes first, but Noel will try to make you stretch -- to learn all you can.

 

Try it; you may like it.

 

Ross Schlabach

[Azalin]

I wish teachers would teach less tunes and more technique on a single tune. If I had a choice, I'd rather learn one tune every two days but have the teacher making me work on it, improve it, phrase it differently, etc. I find learning two tunes per day makes me spend 90% of my time trying to learn the tunes and the notes, and only 10% on actual technique.

[david_boveri]

I wish teachers would teach less tunes and more technique on a single tune. If I had a choice, I'd rather learn one tune every two days but have the teacher making me work on it, improve it, phrase it differently, etc. I find learning two tunes per day makes me spend 90% of my time trying to learn the tunes and the notes, and only 10% on actual technique.

 

haha, well there's a third option. noel teaches more tunes than most teachers will in a week, and more technique. imagine learning 2 tunes a day, and the teacher making you work on it, improve it, and phrase it differently. at other camps, they expect you to learn the notes, practice a little, and socialize, and forget it by the next day. at noel's camps he expects you to be able to walk in the next class period and be able to play the tune, with good rhythm, phrasing, and technique. some times he wont ask you to play a tune the next class period and wait two days, and randomly ask you to play that tune you learned. sometimes you can spend up to 8 hours practicing in a day--1 hour before breakfast, 2 hours before lunch, 2 hours before dinner, 3 hours after dinner. usually most people spend at least 3 or 4 hours practicing a day.

 

like ross said, noel tries to push everyone as far as they can go. if i personally play a tune one way, he will tell me i need to practice more, and if someone else plays it that way, he will tell them they did a good job. so, for some people, he will not only push you to get good rhythm, all the notes, and basic ornamentation, but will push you to get variations in the melody, as well as chording (it has taken me 4 years to be able to vary my chording on the fly). on thursday my first year, for the first time the whole week, i had every note. he looked at me and said, "you looked at the music, didnt you." he could tell that my playing suffered in rhythm and musicality due to looking at the music. i say this to echo what ross said, in that noel often prefers to have good rhythm and sense of melody than having all the right notes. however, as he will push you (as all good teachers do), if you play with good rhythm and the wrong notes, he will correct your notes.

[Azalin]

Eight hours practice eh? I will need to practice nine hours just to make you feel like a novice ;-) I will certainly need lots of tea, but I love practicing, I'm just too lazy to focus on hard parts for too long. OK so it seems like he will push every individual to their limit, if they're willing to try to reach it. I am certainly up for it.

[david_boveri]

Thanks Dave, now I'll be late to work because I couldn't help myself reading bits there and there... :-) You are very hardcore, I didn't know I'd meet someone (learning the concertina) more intense than myself!

 

haha. intense is a good word for it... maybe you could join the "david should calm down" initiative, chaired by greg jowaisas, noel hill, and ross schlabach.

[Azalin]

You need to be obsessed if you want to become really good. How many dinners, events, etc I had to pass because I wanted to stay home and practice. It's like a religion to me, and most of my friends don't understand the depth of it. So I'm not the one who's going to tell you to calm down

Edited April 6, 2009 by Azalin

[david_boveri]

Eight hours practice eh? I will need to practice nine hours just to make you feel like a novice ;-) I will certainly need lots of tea, but I love practicing, I'm just too lazy to focus on hard parts for too long. OK so it seems like he will push every individual to their limit, if they're willing to try to reach it. I am certainly up for it.

 

yeah, i keep looking at the number 8, and thinking it is too much. i cant imagine being able to get through the week without practicing at least 4 hours a day. i guess i consider the whole process practicing... sitting in your room listening to the same tune for an hour is practicing, because it's just as draining. even still, maybe it's more like 6 on the busy days. who knows!

 

i think i'm going to keep a practice log this year to see how much time i spend practicing. wouldnt that be funny if it was like only an hour and a half? it would be especially great if that were the case, after convincing you that any less than 8 is heresy, haha.

[Greg Jowaisas]

This will be my 6th Noel Hill camp. I think there is a progression that some of us go through.

1. I want to learn as much as possible from Noel.

2. I want to play just like Noel.

3. I'm put out that Noel can't get me to play just like Noel.

4. I'm responsible for my own music.

5. I have a lot to learn from Noel

6. I want to play like Noel.

 

The difference between #1 and #5 is knowing what you don't know.

 

The difference between #2 and #6 is that when you realize it is not so much what notes Noel plays as how he plays them that you are really ready to learn the best of what he can teach.

 

I really enjoy Noel's phrasing and how he uses the concertina bring out the soul of the music. I think his musicality and dynamics are wonderful.

 

Oh yeah, he can also play a lot of notes and piping ornaments when he wants to.

 

Greg

 

PS. Dave, you are on your way to writing the condensed "Reader's Digest " version. Keep up the brevity! Best, GJ

[Michael Eskin]

My experience pretty much matches David's, it's a very intense week of learning a lot of tunes. but not just to increase your repertoire, nearly every tune he teaches demonstrates some specific skill he is trying to convey.

 

Noel divides the class into three groups, beginners, intermediate, and advanced. My experience reflects the advanced level class the two times I attended the the Oregon NHICS.

 

Its hard to explain in writing Noel's emphasis on rhythm and lift, he'll talk about the right hand as the bow and the sheer physicalness of playing the instrument. Students, particularly newer players, sometimes get caught up in the details of Noel's scales and ornamentation handouts, but just having the opportunity to spend so much time watching and listening to Noel play, both in the context of class as well as the two or three concerts he puts on during the week is really where you get his message about rhythm and lift. Its not in what he says so much as what he does, he's an incredibly intense player to watch, and I find myself often wondering during his demos why his Jeffries doesn't just explode.

 

He's very strict about his fingerings, my recommendation would be if you intend to attend, is find someone who has attended and have them show you his scale patterns and learn them before you get there. He'll stop you while you are playing and say, "that G, play it on the C row..." or whatever, he will correct you whenever you stray until you do it way he says. The first time I attended, I had learned fingerings from other teachers, and spent the entire week unlearning everything I had learned previously to switch to Noel's fingerings. By the end of the week, I couldn't play anything, and spent the next three months re-inventing my playing using what I learned from Noel. Even how and when to stray from his rules you come to realize are part of the rules, all based on, from what I have been able to deconstruct, the efficiency of using primarily the first and second fingers, the use of bellows reversals to give opportunities bounce and lift, and the different sound and changeability in timbre of the same note, for example the C-natural, on a push vs. a pull based on the size of the resonating chamber. All of what he does is deliberate and for a reason. Some students struggle all week trying to stay with their old habits, my advice is to try his methods on without judgment for the week, and see what happens. The two weeks I've attended have been absolutely life-changing.

 

I do plan to attend again in the future, but most likely I'll try the east coast workshop, just to have a different experience.

 

Cheers,

 

Michael

Edited April 7, 2009 by eskin

[david_boveri]

This will be my 6th Noel Hill camp. I think there is a progression that some of us go through.

1. I want to learn as much as possible from Noel.

2. I want to play just like Noel.

3. I'm put out that Noel can't get me to play just like Noel.

4. I'm responsible for my own music.

5. I have a lot to learn from Noel

6. I want to play like Noel.

 

The difference between #1 and #5 is knowing what you don't know.

 

The difference between #2 and #6 is that when you realize it is not so much what notes Noel plays as how he plays them that you are really ready to learn the best of what he can teach.

 

I really enjoy Noel's phrasing and how he uses the concertina bring out the soul of the music. I think his musicality and dynamics are wonderful.

 

Oh yeah, he can also play a lot of notes and piping ornaments when he wants to.

 

Greg

 

PS. Dave, you are on your way to writing the condensed "Reader's Digest " version. Keep up the brevity! Best, GJ

 

yeah, i go through a similar progression, though i often go through a "i cant imagine what else i could learn from noel" stage. that one is gone, thankfully, and it is now replaced with the inability to conceive what crazy new things i will learn from noel.

 

there should be another step in your progression, the "i want to play more like myself" step, which unfortunately most of us do not go through.

 

oh, and yeah... pretty soon i'm going to be so concise that it will be like a zen koan. "when you pull the bellows, do they make a sound?"

[Greg Jowaisas]

oh, and yeah... pretty soon i'm going to be so concise that it will be like a zen koan. "when you pull the bellows, do they make a sound?"

 

Only if you are paying attention!

 

Play on!

 

Greg

[Fergus_fiddler]

You need to be obsessed if you want to become really good. How many dinners, events, etc I had to pass because I wanted to stay home and practice. It's like a religion to me, and most of my friends don't understand the depth of it. So I'm not the one who's going to tell you to calm down

 

I do understand perfectly what you mean.When I began to learn fiddle I was 25 - now I'm 38 - and practised 6 hours a day - summer holydays -. I tried not only mimic the sound, but understand completely anything related to the culture, performers and enviroment of the music I wanted to play.

 

Now I think I play pretty well. The only problem nowadays is that I've not got time enough to practice - poor wife! - and that I'm impatient to play ALL the tunes I already play in the fiddle with the 'tina .

 

Om the other hand, the concertina helped me a lot to improve my fiddle playing, and I'm becoming almost paranoid about my tuning...

 

Cheers,

 

Fer